Phoenix Development News (3)

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Not sure if we are talking about the same site, but I think thenoriginal reference was to the ground level of Adams and Central, where Nick's101 was. The place is called Ted's BBQ or something similar.

I was talking about the NE corner of Adams and 1st Ave. (not Central) which is where Nick's 101 (101 W. Adams) was located. Have the signs changed from the picture in the 11/2013 article below?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b....html?page=all

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

I was talking about the NE corner of Adams and 1st Ave. (not Central) which is where Nick's 101 (101 W. Adams) was located. Have the signs changed from the picture in the 11/2013 article below?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b....html?page=all

Those signs are still there, but I've seen no progress toward opening a restaurant over the past six months.

[poconoboy61]

The site that looked like it was being prepped for the planned Broadstone Central apartments (Central and Osborn) was just a resurfacing job for a surface parking lot. I guess this means Broadstone is still a long way from becoming reality.

[rocksteady]

I emailed Novawest this morning to inquire about their proposed height of 430ft and why they aren't shooting for the 500 ft max. Their response was what I was expecting.

"Thanks for your interest in our project. The sites we have carefully considered are subject to FAA height limitations that bring the project height below 500’. However, we concur that a 500” project would be desirable and have that in mind as we consider alternate sites.

Thank you"

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

The site that looked like it was being prepped for the planned Broadstone Central apartments (Central and Osborn) was just a resurfacing job for a surface parking lot. I guess this means Broadstone is still a long way from becoming reality.

As someone who despises the vacant lots in Downtown/Midtown, this might not be the worst thing ever. While it will still probably happen, these Broadstone projects are glamorized Mark Taylor apartments. Hopefully we end up with a better looking project at this prime Midtown location.

[dtnphx]

Enough, already!!!

Another hiccup for Hotel Monroe as developers race Super Bowl clock

It’s always two steps forward, one step back for Hotel Monroe in downtown Phoenix.

The historic building’s saga continues as the new owners of the downtown Phoenix property race to get a hotel open before Super Bowl XLIX comes to town in February.

Minneapolis-based CSM Corp. was supposed to go before a Phoenix City Council subcommittee earlier this month as its seeks approvals for property tax breaks for the development of a Hilton Garden Inn at Central Avenue and Monroe Street.

But that panel had to cancel its meeting delaying approval of the property tax break and CSM getting moving on the hotel.

CSM is redeveloping the 13-story, 82-year old Professional Building into a 165-room hotel.

The building has sat vacant for years after previous plans for a Hotel Monroe fell through and the building was foreclosed.

CSM — which owns and develops hotels ­— bought the Hotel Monroe/Professional Building late last year for $7.85 million. A number of previous bids for the property fell short.

Last month, CSM spokeswoman Kate Burda was hopeful to Hilton would be open before the Super Bowl. Downtown Phoenix will be home to a number of Super Bowl events. Downtown Phoenix Partnership CEO Dave Roderique said as many as 1 million visitors will be downtown in the lead up to the Super Bowl.

It will take several months for CSM to get a hotel ready to go at the Professional Building. That has CSM up against the clock to open for the Super Bowl. Burda couldn’t be reached for comment Thursday.

The property tax break for CSM entails the city of Phoenix owning the Professional Building land and then leasing it to the developer. That allows for lower property taxes and the same break has been offered to a number of other developments and hotels in Phoenix, Tempe and other cities.

The redevelopment will add more hotels to the approximately 3,000 rooms in downtown right now. There are usually plenty of rooms available in the current inventory of rooms but Phoenix trails other big convention cities and needs more rooms to compete for large events.

Mike Sunnucks writes about politics, law, airlines, sports business and the economy.

[Edifice]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

I emailed Novawest this morning to inquire about their proposed height of 430ft and why they aren't shooting for the 500 ft max. Their response was what I was expecting.

"Thanks for your interest in our project. The sites we have carefully considered are subject to FAA height limitations that bring the project height below 500’. However, we concur that a 500” project would be desirable and have that in mind as we consider alternate sites.

Thank you"

Thanks for checking and posting this. This kind of lends some credence to the notion that they may be looking at alternate sites.

[Sean1187]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

I emailed Novawest this morning to inquire about their proposed height of 430ft and why they aren't shooting for the 500 ft max. Their response was what I was expecting.

"Thanks for your interest in our project. The sites we have carefully considered are subject to FAA height limitations that bring the project height below 500’. However, we concur that a 500” project would be desirable and have that in mind as we consider alternate sites.

Thank you"

Don't know about you, but I prefer something taller than 500"

Where are the boundaries for this 500' FAA limit?

[PHX31]

Here are the height limit restrictions. It varies based on where you are. Most of downtown is approximately 1090' in elevation, so subtract that from the numbers in the map. Go outside this map and you can go higher.

[PHX31]

/\Looking at the map, the only place left where we may see a 500' building within the main center of downtown/cluster of buildings is the Central Station redevelopment site (pretty much not going to happen), and the lot next to the Barrister building (even more unlikely). Otherwise, we'll have to break the 500' threshold on the outskirts of the main cluster of buildings.

[HX_Guy]

Another spot could be north of the Freeport McMoran building.

[PHX31]

Really? I thought there was some sort of limit to what could be built on that lot. I forget exactly what the limitation was.

I guess a sliver building could be revived somewhere.

[floc34]

Downtown developments: $2M face lift for Arizona Center; Bitter & Twisted opening at Luhrs

Downtown Phoenix boosters are hoping to see new businesses, restaurants and development spread south from the CityScape development and north from Arizona State University’s growing downtown campus.

The Arizona Center development is going through an estimated $2 million face lift of its facades and walkways. The CommonWealth REIT-owned project is looking to attract more national tenants and restaurants to cater to ASU students, convention attendees and office workers. The development has had spotty performances since opening in 1989 on the old site of St. Mary’s High School.

But the development hopes to benefit from ASU’s growth downtown and replicate the success of CityScape which has seen its restaurants and bars perform well.

Just south of CityScape, Bitter & Twisted Cocktail Parlour will open to the public on May 30 in the Luhrs Building at Central Avenue and Jefferson Street.

The 4,000-square foot bar hopes to copy the success of Sam Fox’s higher-end Arrogant Butcher restaurant at CityScape.

“We’re lucky enough to be living in a second golden age of the cocktail, and we want to bring a great sense of excitement and exploration in the form of a great night out any night of the week,” said Bitter & Twisted owner Ross Simon.

An $80 million Marriott hotel is planned for the Luhrs block of properties. The Luhrs Building was built in 1924 and was featured in Alfred Hitchcock’s "Psycho" movie.

California-based Hansji Urban is developing the hotel and could be waiting on approval of foreign investment funds, according to an official familiar with the project. Minnesota-based CSM Corp. also hopes to start its redevelopment of the long-vacant Hotel Monroe/Professional Building at Central Avenue and Monroe Street into a Hilton Garden Inn. CSM is waiting Phoenix City Council approvals of a property tax break.

Downtown Phoenix Partnership CEO Dave Roderique hopes to see more business activity and development spreading out from downtown’s successes such as CityScape and the ASU campus.

Roderique said there now approximately 150 bars and restaurants in downtown Phoenix up from 100 a few years ago.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...a=twt&page=all

[floc34]

Justin Beckett's Southern Rail opens May 30

Chef Justin Beckett is bringing a little southern comfort to Phoenix this month.

Beckett is set to debut his latest concept, Southern Rail, May 30. The opening comes a little more than a year after first announcing as part of the Newton project, Venue Projects’ redevelopment of the former Beef Eaters site at Third Avenue and Camelback Road.

The 5,100-square-foot restaurant will initially serve dinner only, but eventually add lunch and weekend brunch in the coming months. It will employ around 70.

Originally, the restaurant, along with the rest of the Newton, was slated to open last fall, but unexpected issues arose when construction crews began the renovation project.

“Regardless of how many restaurants I’ve opened, and best laid plans, the process is never what I expect,” Beckett said. “After numerous research and development trips, a few exciting design revisions and several iterations of the menu, we are finally ready to share this passion project with our loyal supporters who’ve waited so patiently.”

Using local Arizona ingredients and produce, Southern Rail will feature Beckett’s take on culinary fare from the American South, including cooking of the Carolinas, Cajun and Creole offerings and slow-smoke barbecue from Texas.

“Long before the farm-to-table concept emerged, southern cooks took great pride in preparing dishes with a real focus on local produce,” Beckett said. “At Southern Rail I wanted to pay homage by incorporating Arizona’s unique local produce in creative takes on some of the South’s most iconic dishes.”

Southern Rail is the second restaurant from Beckett. He also operates his popular Beckett’s Table in at 3717 E. Indian School Road in Phoenix.

In addition to Beckett’s second restaurant, the Newton project will be home to a Changing Hands Bookstore.

Changing Hands raised more than $90,000 to help fund its location at the Newton.

The project was announced in March 2013.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b....html?page=all

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Those signs are still there, but I've seen no progress toward opening a restaurant over the past six months.

My photo from April shows signs for Texas Thunder BBQ - how strange if it's gone and forth?

PHX31
I know I'm a grump and err on the critical side of proposals, but that's one of the many reasons why we can't keep accepting mediocre projects on prime lots. The vacancy lots aren't in the area we can build big; they're in the neighborhoods where we should be stepping down to mid rises. Instead, Portland on the Park will be the largest - aside from Central Station - project built since the Courts Tower at 11 and 14 stories in what is as residential a setting as you can get.

A lot that can house - hypothetically - four 500+ towers being utilized for a one-use 400-footer and parking/landscape on the rest shouldn't be accepted by our community. We have wasted far too many lots already with the tower + garage combination that kills the streets and makes it that much easier for those employees to stay 9-5 and get out. Sure, it's a net gain since some will move closer to work, stay for happy hours and of course, eat lunch, but look at Denver, Vancouver, Toronto... Ottawa... every lot is mixed use high rise in their core. I can't be angry over CityScape's design - people have ultimately been able to make their way around - because it's the only site that has retail, residential, hotel and office on the same block, something cities in our league are producing one after another.

WVB has always been the fantasy of some on this board for a cluster of 500+ projects with big box retail below, but that's never going to happen given 1) the filth of 7th avenue, 2) the filth of 5th-1st avenue south of Fillmore, and the cold, brutalist, no-care-given to the pedestrian buildings and garages on everywhere else south and west. Who is going to be a retail pioneer in a downtown tower next to a drive thru McDonalds, abandoned Church, Sun Devil Auto, with views of a towers-wide garage on 1st?

Central Station should've been another mega-site with residential and office towers over retail with underground parking, offering views of, and access to, our wonderful park, Westward Ho, Midtown and mountains for residents, and The historic Security Building, 1 of only 2 high rise residential projects ever built downtown, etc. I'll exclude hotel given I think we've finally reached our accurate level so long as Hilton and double Mariott don't fall apart. Meanwhile, VB and Central should be one of the hottest spaces for retail downtown. Yet, the buildout plan for the Security building failed and nobody has thrown money at marketing the crap out of perfect, historic frontages; ASU, as usual, stripped its retail out of the UC building or at least hid it from street view; Province was a great last minute save to what could've been the mist awkward setback to downtown... ever, but the Westin isn't all that engaging along Central; and, Chase dug a moat because I guess barbed wire was against code even back then.

So, why not another lifeless garage if you're SmithGroup, when that's your surroundings instead of H&M, authentic Pho, Lulu Lemon, American Apparel and a professional office at the Security Building, an original restaurant and patio a la the MU's "green," and public bookstore w/ ASU partnership at UC, OrangeTheory on top of AE England instead of the "surprise, coffee is undergrounspa approach, and your typical food truck/vendors with 1 or 2 new faces every week filling the Chase food court. But, then, let's be real and know that dreams of WVB are over. Of coursee, we'll get an office or two. But, they'll be in the 400' area with attached parking, and mixed use is probably out of the question. And, for once, I agree. The garages and other factors isolating that part of VB make it impossible for any kind of retail synergies to occur and be successful aside from a restaurant here and there.

Projects like Roosevelt Pointe and even Union were/are great because they show that the market is healthy enough to invest in again. But, since then, the only proposals have been for residential-only projects, mostly in midtown, with none over 5 stories. And, as someone pointed out, aside from Edison, they've been glorified Mark Taylor designs that add nothing but dirt reduction to the neighborhood. We're allowing surface parking frontage on Central - definitely a new low.

There used to be a poster who always explained so well why residential projects had to be tall given the limited supply of land in the immediate core and disadvantage of Phoenix missing the surrounding, connected urban neighborhoods that densify other big cities. But, until we start getting some real projects going, we'lle never have the critical mass needed to suppport clothing stores, home goods, etc, kind of stores we all want. And, that doesn't mean 29 stories fronting Roosevelt. Given the amount of vacancies nearby, setting the present of 20ish tall towers over parking in the rear with 7-8 story studios retail in the front would start looking very appropriate.

[Jjs5056]

So, what's up with the Warehouse District bar scene? Jackson's on 3rd closed, reopened, and closed again 3 years or so again, and now Legends Bar and Grill - 3rd and the tracks where Coach&Willie's was beforehand, has been gone since the beginning of the year. These are two of the easiest spots for a née bar to go, rather than attempt to restore ground up.we're down to Cooperstown and surely there's enough pre/post event market for smother bar to open up.

I'm also wondering how real the Ballpark Apts are? Can someone see if there's been movement since site plan approval? Their rep already made referencence to phases, so I only expect the tracks - Buchanan to get developed, nut some permanent residents couldn't hurt in trying to get nightlife back to baseline at least.

It's also amazing to me how many of the same business exists in that area with the same purpose of educating an underserved group, training them, and preparing them for job procurement. Not that competition is a and thing, but I would thinking some sort of merger would be beneficial as I'm sure some services are only offered at one location. Consolidation would reduce costs thstcif could be sent on more recruitment and marketing, hiring guest speakers/professors to help increase its prestige smd help give "seniors" hands on training as so many types of jobs are nearby, and think it would be great to see an underserved Hispanic student hear lessons from Sam Fox in his culinary classes, and then go talk to Michael Levine about entrepreneurship, and eventually open an authentic Mexican restaurant in the warehouse district.

There's also an awful lot of lreal estate being used by these orgs that could be freed up if merged, and allow for some dense residential construction needs longterm.

Also, does anyone know of a place with historic warehouse district photos? Interested in the former uses of some buildings. Lastly, when converting into lofts - how strict is HP? Was looking at the building on 5th/Jackson that almost was demolished and thought it'd make a nice condo, but either balconies or larger windows are a definite must and I'm not sure that's allowed?

[soleri]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

There used to be a poster who always explained so well why residential projects had to be tall given the limited supply of land in the immediate core and disadvantage of Phoenix missing the surrounding, connected urban neighborhoods that densify other big cities. But, until we start getting some real projects going, we'lle never have the critical mass needed to suppport clothing stores, home goods, etc, kind of stores we all want. And, that doesn't mean 29 stories fronting Roosevelt. Given the amount of vacancies nearby, setting the present of 20ish tall towers over parking in the rear with 7-8 story studios retail in the front would start looking very appropriate.

I always enjoy reading your posts although I have to edit them as I go along. Grammar is our friend. That and shorter sentences.

I completely agree with your analysis although I think downtown Phoenix is compelled, more or less, to settle for less-than-ideal projects. The real focus for our urban energies will be, as you seem to indicate, exactly those places that can support organic growth rather than the soul-destroying mega-projects. You'll never fix the Chase Tower's setback, or its dreadful parking garage, or the lifeless Convention Center, or the multiple dead zones where parking garages and government buildings predominate. That's set in concrete in a quite literal sense. What you have in Roosevelt are Phoenix's only genuine urban qualities, which new development can enhance (or not, if we get too greedy).

Downtown San Diego is a useful point of comparison. North of Broadway around its civic center, it's as lifeless as Phoenix, and as resistant to improvement. While Horton Plaza's contribution shouldn't be minimized, it's really the gentrified Gaslamp Quarter that made downtown work. Phoenix never had that building stock, but it's remarkable how clueless the city has remained about the few old buildings it does have.

Downtown Phoenix has a perennial problem I call Hippie Punching. In the contest between artistic visionaries and real-estate grifters, the grifters have consistently won. You end up with inorganic projects like Arizona Center, Collier Center, and CityScape. Urban planners used to love this kind of stuff before they finally retired and more sensitive urbanists replaced them. Unfortunately, they did irreparable damage to downtown before they blessedly rode into the sunset.

Messy urbanism is vastly preferable to the lifeless corpse we settled for. I'd give my left nut to still have The Deuce, along with the urban farrago that was clear-cut for the original Patriot's Park, the deco pleasures of the old Newberry's, Kresge's, and Woolworths, Fox Theater, and the lovely Luhrs Hotel. I don't mean to relitigate the history of Phoenix but it's clear we killed downtown for no better reason than creating a Potemkin downtown for a soulless city. Where there are still old buildings, there is still hope. Roosevelt, by the way, is still under attack by real-estate grifters. You guys should really be angry about that.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

My photo from April shows signs for Texas Thunder BBQ - how strange if it's gone and forth?

PHX31
I know I'm a grump and err on the critical side of proposals, but that's one of the many reasons why we can't keep accepting mediocre projects on prime lots. The vacancy lots aren't in the area we can build big; they're in the neighborhoods where we should be stepping down to mid rises. Instead, Portland on the Park will be the largest - aside from Central Station - project built since the Courts Tower at 11 and 14 stories in what is as residential a setting as you can get.

A lot that can house - hypothetically - four 500+ towers being utilized for a one-use 400-footer and parking/landscape on the rest shouldn't be accepted by our community. We have wasted far too many lots already with the tower + garage combination that kills the streets and makes it that much easier for those employees to stay 9-5 and get out. Sure, it's a net gain since some will move closer to work, stay for happy hours and of course, eat lunch, but look at Denver, Vancouver, Toronto... Ottawa... every lot is mixed use high rise in their core. I can't be angry over CityScape's design - people have ultimately been able to make their way around - because it's the only site that has retail, residential, hotel and office on the same block, something cities in our league are producing one after another.

WVB has always been the fantasy of some on this board for a cluster of 500+ projects with big box retail below, but that's never going to happen given 1) the filth of 7th avenue, 2) the filth of 5th-1st avenue south of Fillmore, and the cold, brutalist, no-care-given to the pedestrian buildings and garages on everywhere else south and west. Who is going to be a retail pioneer in a downtown tower next to a drive thru McDonalds, abandoned Church, Sun Devil Auto, with views of a towers-wide garage on 1st?

Central Station should've been another mega-site with residential and office towers over retail with underground parking, offering views of, and access to, our wonderful park, Westward Ho, Midtown and mountains for residents, and The historic Security Building, 1 of only 2 high rise residential projects ever built downtown, etc. I'll exclude hotel given I think we've finally reached our accurate level so long as Hilton and double Mariott don't fall apart. Meanwhile, VB and Central should be one of the hottest spaces for retail downtown. Yet, the buildout plan for the Security building failed and nobody has thrown money at marketing the crap out of perfect, historic frontages; ASU, as usual, stripped its retail out of the UC building or at least hid it from street view; Province was a great last minute save to what could've been the mist awkward setback to downtown... ever, but the Westin isn't all that engaging along Central; and, Chase dug a moat because I guess barbed wire was against code even back then.

So, why not another lifeless garage if you're SmithGroup, when that's your surroundings instead of H&M, authentic Pho, Lulu Lemon, American Apparel and a professional office at the Security Building, an original restaurant and patio a la the MU's "green," and public bookstore w/ ASU partnership at UC, OrangeTheory on top of AE England instead of the "surprise, coffee is undergrounspa approach, and your typical food truck/vendors with 1 or 2 new faces every week filling the Chase food court. But, then, let's be real and know that dreams of WVB are over. Of coursee, we'll get an office or two. But, they'll be in the 400' area with attached parking, and mixed use is probably out of the question. And, for once, I agree. The garages and other factors isolating that part of VB make it impossible for any kind of retail synergies to occur and be successful aside from a restaurant here and there.

Projects like Roosevelt Pointe and even Union were/are great because they show that the market is healthy enough to invest in again. But, since then, the only proposals have been for residential-only projects, mostly in midtown, with none over 5 stories. And, as someone pointed out, aside from Edison, they've been glorified Mark Taylor designs that add nothing but dirt reduction to the neighborhood. We're allowing surface parking frontage on Central - definitely a new low.

There used to be a poster who always explained so well why residential projects had to be tall given the limited supply of land in the immediate core and disadvantage of Phoenix missing the surrounding, connected urban neighborhoods that densify other big cities. But, until we start getting some real projects going, we'lle never have the critical mass needed to suppport clothing stores, home goods, etc, kind of stores we all want. And, that doesn't mean 29 stories fronting Roosevelt. Given the amount of vacancies nearby, setting the present of 20ish tall towers over parking in the rear with 7-8 story studios retail in the front would start looking very appropriate.

Just give it up. This is not our reality. You really seem to have trouble grasping the idea of supply and demand. The urban models for Denver and the random Canadian cities you threw don't fit into our puzzle. The mediocre proposals we're getting are the only proposals we're getting because the demand is not there for anything more grand. This idea that these lots should remain vacant until demand exists for some 500 foot tower with ground floor retail is absurd.

There are lots in Central Phoenix and Midtown Phoenix that have been vacant for decades because there is no demand for office/residential/commercial there at all. It's not because they're supposedly "filthy" and surrounded by "brutalist architecture." It's because the demand for office space is in Tempe, Scottsdale, and Mesa. Phoenix's heyday has passed. We should be happy that some of these lots are being developed period, not chiding developers and the city for not constructing and approving buildings that are way out of scale with demand. We need to work within our own context and reality instead of trying to assume the same urban model as more traditional cities. Our setbacks and inward facing entrances accommodate the people in this city who drive and don't enter buildings from the sidewalk. This isn't developer stupidity. It's a design that reflects our reality.

No developer is going to invest money in building new high rises with limited parking and ground floor retail when many high rise in downtown and midtown Phoenix have been suffering from chronically high vacancy rates for years, companies have openly stated that they prefer the suburban office model with plenty of parking available, and retail in the central core has been unstable for decades. It's high time we start realizing that and stop wasting our time and resources trying to propel ourselves back into the 1930s-1960s when downtown was actually the place to be and the 1960s-1990s when midtown was a target area.

Until there is actually dirt moving on any of these proposed projects, I think it is entirely too early to speculate on whether the downtown/midtown market has recovered to its levels of mediocrity present before the recession. Union is still a huge dirt lot that isn't seeing movement. The proposed development around Roosevelt Point hasn't seen any dirt churning either. Likewise, there has been no movement at the Hotel Monroe site, no demolition near the Luhrs building for the proposed hotel, the Pin has fallen through, and none of the proposed developments in Midtown seem to be going anywhere. Meanwhile, you go to Tempe and Scottsdale and see cranes and you go to SE Mesa and Gilbert and see single family homes and the traditional suburban power centers being constructed left and right. This is the reflection of the present demand in the Phoenix area. No amount of vacant ground floor retail and unwarranted 500 foot towers are going to change that.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by soleri

Downtown San Diego is a useful point of comparison. North of Broadway around its civic center, it's as lifeless as Phoenix, and as resistant to improvement. While Horton Plaza's contribution shouldn't be minimized, it's really the gentrified Gaslamp Quarter that made downtown work. Phoenix never had that building stock, but it's remarkable how clueless the city has remained about the few old buildings it does have...

Messy urbanism is vastly preferable to the lifeless corpse we settled for. I'd give my left nut to still have The Deuce, along with the urban farrago that was clear-cut for the original Patriot's Park, the deco pleasures of the old Newberry's, Kresge's, and Woolworths, Fox Theater, and the lovely Luhrs Hotel. I don't mean to relitigate the history of Phoenix but it's clear we killed downtown for no better reason than creating a Potemkin downtown for a soulless city. Where there are still old buildings, there is still hope. Roosevelt, by the way, is still under attack by real-estate grifters. You guys should really be angry about that.

You're correct about DTSD. However there are many condos and hotels north of Broadway in this strange area between Gaslamp and Little Italy. Most downtowns are totally lifeless after hours including NY and Boston's financial districts (courts, banks and law firms). It is what surrounds the core that makes a city "a city". Downtown Phoenix core will always be lifeless and all about business, and that's fine. It's neighborhoods like Garfield and Roosevelt and even south of the tracks that should be bulking up. Yes I said south of the tracks, I know it's under sky harbors flight path, but that shouldn't matter.

Despite being directly under the final approach to SD's airport, Bankers Hill still pulls in rents around the $1200+ range for 1 b/r apartments. People are willing to put up with noise to be close to the city amenities of DT. Golden Hill, just east of the new up and coming East Village, also lies under the flight path and same story.

[turpentyne]

Some thoughts occur to me, after watching posters go back and forth on how to handle downtown growth/construction.

It's obvious that there are two opposing views.
1 - Build it (correctly) and they will come.
2 - Demand must meet/exceed supply, before we build.

I see people say that one or the other "doesn't get it," but that's not constructive, and not the point. Just because somebody has a differing view, it doesn't mean they don't acknowledge or understand the other side. They just have... a different view.

I think the problem is, that this city is at an impasse without some wealthy visionary or a community willing to think beyond supply/demand economics. There are many things about our future that will get much worse, if we don't make a concerted effort to improve our density in the core. This isn't just because we're skyscraper afficionados on a website daydreaming about 500' buildings.

For me, to build up and build wisely makes the growing city more viable, Density builds better community. A better community brings more businesses and people - growing the economy.

But it's beyond just the 'happy community'. We need to contract our cities to protect our future. Building up, instead of out will help us control pollution. It will soften the heat island effect, halt the destruction of a delicate desert environment and make dwindling water supplies easier to distribute.

Phoenix can lighten its load in providing services like transit/police/medical and so on. Just look at the story of why Detroit has to shrink. They are tearing down outlying neighborhoods because they simply can't afford to provide the services.

No, we're not in Detroit-esque decline. But look into the crystal ball of our future with an unbiased eye, and try to convince yourself you can't see a painful future. It isn't some Democratic or Republican political armageddon. It's a far more real threat to humanity. Global warming, dwindling water supply, slowing population growth that could send economies into free-fall as they likely begin to decline in the coming 50 years. These are just the threats that come to mind.

A compact city can better weather this future. It lets the farms be closer to us. Cops have less land to patrol. You might actually get to know your neighbor. We can restore some of our environment, or at the very least, stop gobbling it up wholesale, just to have a lawn and a moment's peace.

We can discuss the details of how to achieve the density, and there will be different solutions. But I feel it's admitting defeat when we simply say "we have to wait until there are no empty storefronts, before building more. That's like saying Tesla Motors shouldn't bother building electric cars because the market for them is too small. Or apple shouldn't build a smart phone, because other companies already have them. Or saying we shouldn't get involved in World War II, because it looks like a losing proposition. Our history is littered with people who never took chances - and bejeweled with those who dared.

Some things are bigger than markets and saying a city is too far down some nihilistic path of growth. We need that visionary to help us get there. And if not one, then all of us need to combine our thoughts constructively to build that collective vision of the future. Educate those who don't know any better. Elect officials who have NO predatory, self-interested motives. Think bigger than the obstacles. A few empty storefronts is no reason to walk away from great ideas.

ok.. I'm done ranting! hahah! I just couldn't help myself!