Sorry if this ends up messed up. I almost lost everything below because I wasn't logged in and after I logged in, I was getting errors when resending the submission. I rescued it by opening Fiddler 2 and clicking resend to get the POST data. I had to reconstruct the POST data manually and paste it in.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Cumberland is not a separate city... infact it TECHNICALLY is a part of Atlanta! Check the addresses for businesses in the district.)
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Since when does a post office decide municipal boundaries? No, Cumberland is definitely Cobb County and not in Atlanta city limits, officially and technically. Vinings has an Atlanta address too, and is also Cobb County. The post office just used I-285 as a cut off. Anything North is a Smyrna address and serviced by the Smyrna P.O, anything South is an Atlanta address and not serviced by the Smyrna post office.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
That's why a lot of the properties are vacant in the first place; too many rental properties and not enough people investing and staying in the areas.
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Actually, that's not quite the history. The main reason why there are so many vacancies right now is mortgage fraud by greedy people trying to make a quick buck, and greedy banks abuse of the subprime market. Many RENTERS were kicked out of their house by banks, leaving the property vacant.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Yeah there are some really dense areas (Buckhead for example) and some really non dense areas.
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Buckhead is actually the sparsest part of Atlanta, and the most suburban part of Atlanta, and typically sparser than Cobb County. It's the main thing I'm talking about actually. There's only a small portion of it in Lindergh and along Peachtree Street and the Lenox area that's dense. The rest has very large lots, especially compared to South and East Cobb (aside from Vinings). Look at Paces and Ridgewood, or Tuxedo Park for instance. Some houses have multi-acre lots. That's typical Buckhead. When people say "Buckhead" They seem to be talking about Lenox, but that's only a small part.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
So do we just take out the dense areas and say that is the true make up of ATL? That makes no sense doing that.
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Even your comparison of West ATL and going into Cobb county; it's made up the same way as the rest of ATL with pockets of density. I agree there are probably some areas of ATL that are less dense than areas in Cobb or Gwinnett but the fact is that ATL as a WHOLE is more dense based on the numbers aka the facts that you want so much.
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New Britain, CT (a Hartford suburb) has 5,360 people per square mile. So I'm sorry, Atlanta is just not urban at all from a New Britain, CT perspective. Now, just stare at the picture. Sorry, Atlanta, you just are not a real city, since this little CT town is more densely populated. Should I mention that New Britain has no passenger rail stops at all (there is an Amtrak that does not stop there
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Oh, while we are at it, sleepy New London, CT, a city of 27,600 people, is also more densely populated than Atlanta. Sorry Atlanta, you lose again to a small town. I guess we shouldn't treat Peachtree St special and maybe consider that the density there is probably a LOT higher than these two towns? But you can't have it both ways. You either need to admit that most of Atlanta is suburban with a few dense districts mixed in that heavily skew density numbers, or just admit defeat to these small towns since they are apparently nothing in Atlanta measures up to them. Which is it?
And for sure to Hartford, CT which has twice as many people per square mile. Hartford is much more the real city than Atlanta, isn't it?
You see how silly this is saying that Atlanta is more urban because it's overall density is higher? I think it's safer to admit that there are parts of Atlanta that are much more dense than Smyrna, then most of the rest of it isn't.
We could stick 5 footprints of Smyrna into Buckhead, Smyrna would be more densely populated, so long as we didn't touch Peachtree Rd.
The Southern part of the metro is more dense ITP. It's the exact reverse in the North. It's more dense OTP.
You know, you and a lot of people in Atlanta falsely complain that the metro area doesn't admit that Atlanta is the core. But have you ever thought about the fact that you may not want to admit that Atlanta is just about as suburban in character for the most part as the rest of the inner metro region, with a few districts that go very vertical mixed in being the exception rather than the norm?
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Metro Marietta?! That is too funny. OTPers will do anything to separate themselves from ATL.
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No, it's called history. Atlanta didn't engulf Marietta until approximately the 70s.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
That's like going to NYC and saying there is a metro Yonkers or a metro Newark area WITHIN the metro NYC area.
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Really, that's not a good analogy. Manhatten was there first. It was bought from the Manhatten indians, all the way up to Wall Street and was the very first thing settled anywhere around New York city. Marietta was there first, when what you call Atlanta now was a bunch of plantations. Even Vinings was there first. So, not the same thing at all.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
While there are a number of employment centers across the metro area to not have transit service the primary core makes no sense. You are basically saying build rail that connects with nothing in Cobb and Gwinnett and then connect to ATL.
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You need to study traffic patterns for the North metro. Very little of the traffic is commuting into Atlanta. Most is commuting between North metro communities and North metro activity centers. Over 60% of the people living in Cobb WORK in COBB. And more commute to the Perimeter Center and Windward area than downtown. Go to any part of the North metro area, and you see the same pattern, most traffic is between North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett than into Atlanta.
Now don't get me wrong, Atlanta has three of the largest employment centers in the metro. However, they are limited. Other than the airport, the rest of the major ones are in the North metro: Town Center, Cumberland, Marietta, Windward, Perimeter Center, Norcross. Based on traffic patterns, it would do much more to hook these up than hook them up to Atlanta.
If you were to plot the "center of employment" for the metro area, in fact, that point would end up somewhere between Lenox and Perimeter Center.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Again this the the metro ATLANTA region.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton ARE extensions of ATL and rail service should also act as such.
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And before continuing on that above, which I'll do now, I wanted to include a quote from you which shows the confusion a lot of people have. The "name" the region has does absolutely NOT have anything to do with where the traffic patterns are for commuters. Most absolutely do not commute through Atlanta, period. That's in fact why it's so much easier to cut through Atlanta to get from Cobb to Gwinnett than to go along the I-285 perimeter. Ever noticed that? :-)
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
What sense would having a train that serves JUST Cobb or just Gwinnett?
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Because it gets people to their jobs, not service some ideological but factually incorrect view about where the metro area's employment is centered. Building a rail from Cobb to midtown Atlanta isn't going to get most Cobb residents to their jobs. Sure, it may get them to the game once a year, or their nightclub or favorite restaurant, but not going to get them to work. I work downtown, but I'm a minority. Most people need mobility within the North metro, not to Atlanta.
Cobb has a lot different challenge than Atlanta. Most of Atlanta's population and employment is along the MARTA lines or within walking distance/ short bus shuttle to them. Cobb has most of its employment along Cobb Parkway, Windy Hill, and Roswell Rd, then a few other employment zones on E/W, Austell Rd, Marietta Square and Canton Rd. You could link up all these employment zones in Cobb with transit to each other, like Atlanta did, and then people would have no way to get to them. You could feed them with bus routes which already exist, and still the same problem. You'd have to do things a little different than in Atlanta. You'd have to realize that when most people in Cobb leave their homes, they are going to be in their cars (or on bicycles perhaps as an alternative someday for areas like Smyrna with lots of bike trails). So what you have to do is put transit stops with PARKING GARAGES (like the Mount Vernon / Abernathy station in the Perimeter) so that they can drive their cars a mile and park them and catch the train. You solve that problem, and then you've also solved the problem for the small minority of people that commute into Atlanta.
Until then, your simply talking about economic development. And yes, connecting Cumberland to central Atlanta or the airport would be an economic development boon for Cumberland. It'd probably start to look like Lenox pretty quickly. But when the small number of people that commute to Atlanta leave their homes in their cars like I mentioned before from elsewhere in Cobb, and they get to where the transit station is in Cumberland, they would have already braved the worst traffic and are just going to drive all the way in. What's quite ironic is that if there were a rail from Cumberland to Perimeter Center, people probably would get onto it in Cumberland simply because I-285 traffic is so horrible.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Now am I saying there should never be rail that connects Cobb and Gwinnett without coming downtown, no. But to start with that because most of the 'burbs want nothing to do with ATL would be stupid and a waste of money. Hence why there are no plans for such a rail system.
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This is a naive view of things and why people just can't get anything done. They don't realize the main issues the North metro people are facing and are focused on Atlanta economic development versus servicing our real needs to get to where we work.
That is the problem with the metro area. We need cross-town transit because of how decentralized it is and that's going to be very expensive and that's why no one wants to do it, because they are fiscally conservative.
Connecting into Atlanta is a waste from a commuting perspective since it doesn't solve the problem. So that's seen as "pork belly" by the fiscal conservatives as well.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
While I completely agree that Cumberland needs heavy rail I think it should be extended past their to Kennesaw State/Town Center area.
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It should probably connect Cumberland and Town Center first with LRT to service people who actually live and work in Cobb, especially many of the people living in Cobb who work along Cobb Parkway who could probably use an alternative to needing to own a car.
As mentioned, connecting Cumberland to Atlanta (or the airport) would be a much-needed economic development boon, not something that would get people to work.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
We have the luxury of having a heavy rail system that acts as a hybrid.
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It's heavy rail, like a subway. It doesn't even have an express so it's a big-time bottleneck.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
I also agree major cross town arteries should be served by streetcar or bus rapid transit. But as much as you state areas in Cobb are so dense you would think you would want heavy rail criss crossing the county!
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Cobb Parkway needs light rail right now to get people from stripmall to small office to stripmall essentially but will probably eventually need an express between Town Center and Cumberland.
But your tongue in cheek comment ignores the fact that only light rail would be needed to connect to Perimeter Center and Cumberland and Cumberland and Arts center. There just wouldn't be that many passengers per train to warrant heavy rail.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
I guess my question is why not just extend the heavy rail along Cobb Pkwy?
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Because there wouldn't be enough ridership to warrant it. You need a high density of stops to get people to all the stripmalls and offices. Not a rail that carries a lot of people. More stops, smaller trains.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Why create a transfer situation to get into the city? If Cumberland needs that "tight connection" you state why wouldn't Marietta or the rest of Cobb?
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Cumberland (and maybe Town Center someday) needs it for a whole different reason. It needs it for an economic development perspective, simply because it has "tapped out" and is going vertical. It needs it because MARTA is the trunk from the perspective of a business traveler going to some place like the Galleria or Circle 75.
The rest of Cobb County's employment centers still have room to grow, aren't going vertical as much, and just need ways to get people who work in those areas, and they are typically already in Cobb or very close by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
I don't think it should be a peer pressure thing either. I agree MARTA's rail is the "trunk" rail. That's why it should be extended up Cobb Pkwy to Town Center.
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What would actually work best for economic development is an express from Town Center to Cumberland, then using Cobb Parkway for local light rail with lots of stops, for local workers.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
Going east to west in Cobb I say streetcar/BRT/LR all the way. But again when you think of density (as you say Cobb has) you think of heavy rail.
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No, you have it all confused. :-) heavy rail is for heavily concentrated density, like a strip, not for something that is pretty consistently moderate density throughout. Lightrail is for lower ridership and typically is the next logical step up from a bus. As I mentioned, many times, Atlanta has a highly dense Peachtree Street corridor (metropolitan parkway/Lee Rd as well) then the rest is either low (Paces, etc) or moderate density (West End, Peoplestown, Grant Park, etc). It's good that Atlanta even has an E-W heavy rail to be ready for the future, but the only part that really is high density enough to even warrant it right now is the Peacthree St cooridor. In fact, along the E-W (if you've ever noticed) MARTA only typically has a 1-2 cars per train. That's light rail running on a heavy rail track.
The Cobb Parkway cooridor will probably need heavy rail someday (within next 50 years) simply because it will be fed by those E-W bus and light rail, but it can't be along Cobb Parkway unless built elevated or below ground augmenting an at-grade light rail simply because of the density of stops that will be along Cobb Parkway.
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Originally Posted by bfarley30
At one point you are talking Cobb needs to build there own but here you are asking for a regional concept. Which one?
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You don't get it. As mentioned above, Cumberland needs a connection for ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. To add to that, it's to COMPETE with Lenox, etc. To get the rest of Cobb County to work, the county could get along just fine with only regional connections and no connections to Atlanta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
The problem is that there are folks that don't recognize that ATL is still the core and heart of the region
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Not where most people work.