Ontario School Boards - Time to Merge

[manny_santos]

I had a conversation about this very issue with a friend of mine who is a devout Catholic over the weekend. She is in full favour of getting rid of publicly funded Catholic education in Ontario.

Her reason? Most of the people that go to these schools aren't practicing Catholics anyways, and people who are practicing Catholics and want religious education would be better served by a private institution.

I used to be a strong supporter of public Catholic education in Ontario. As I've gotten older I've realized that I was isolated from people outside the Catholic Church growing up, and a significant amount of instructional time was spent on religious studies that I could have learned at church. I would likely favour a merger if it came up in the future, but I think such a move is decades away.

[wave46]

The big fight will be with the teachers unions. The billions in savings will come from having fewer teachers as most of the costs in education are salaries (as is the case with most government operations).

The rationalization will mean layoffs and they will not go quietly into the good night. The big losers will be the teachers at the bottom - they'll get cut and be in a very bad job market for teaching in general.

I think that's why the province is reluctant to get into this mess, constitutional reasons aside.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can appreciate that but it's a highly theoretical plus. Most people aren't going to change school systems for their kids in mid-year just because of a strike that might hypothetically end at any time.

My cousin did that in the early 2000s...

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course there is the philosophical issue for many about sending your kids where you might not agree with all of the teachings.

...and simply told them "religion is fake, I only send you there because it's closer and your old school went on strike".



It can backfire though if the Christianity fucks with the kids mind too much. I know one kid who went to public schools for elementary and goes to Catholic school for secondary (because the school was closer to his house) and even since he started he became really depressed and detached. He didn't know what religion was (raised fully atheist) so I think it was culture shock. I haven't him for a while so I don't know if it has passed but it's definitely something to be aware of.

The Catholic high schools here, btw, took out their libraries and replaced them with chapels.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

My cousin did that in the early 2000s...



...and simply told them "religion is fake, I only send you there because it's closer and your old school went on strike".



It can backfire though if the Christianity fucks with the kids mind too much. I know one kid who went to public schools for elementary and goes to Catholic school for secondary (because the school was closer to his house) and even since he started he became really depressed and detached. He didn't know what religion was (raised fully atheist) so I think it was culture shock. I haven't him for a while so I don't know if it has passed but it's definitely something to be aware of.

The Catholic high schools here, btw, took out their libraries and replaced them with chapels.

I think I've mentioned before that IMO Catholic schools in Ontario have become more devout in recent years. I base this on what my nephews and nieces say they are learning, and also comments from my relatives who teach in them.

I went to Ontario Catholic schools for part of my education and it was very "cafeteria Catholic" back in the day. It's not like that so much today.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by wave46

The big fight will be with the teachers unions. The billions in savings will come from having fewer teachers as most of the costs in education are salaries (as is the case with most government operations).

The rationalization will mean layoffs and they will not go quietly into the good night. The big losers will be the teachers at the bottom - they'll get cut and be in a very bad job market for teaching in general.

I think that's why the province is reluctant to get into this mess, constitutional reasons aside.

Actually, the number of teaching jobs would stay almost the same. The system allocates teachers to school boards and to individual schools based on the number of students. So smaller schools simply get fewer teachers.. and in general, they don't make exceptions. A lot of under-enrolled elementary schools only have three or four teachers total and they end up having consolidated grades--ie. one classroom is kindergarten and Grade 1, another is Grades 2 and 3, another is Grades 4/5/6, etc. That's one of the reasons why the government is pushing so hard to close small rural schools, because of the negative consequences of having kids of such different ages being taught by the same teacher in the same classroom.

In high schools, schools with smaller student populations who thus have fewer teachers end up having fewer elective courses available, or courses are only offered in alternating years. I went to a very small high school and in my school, for example, Grade 11 Physics & Grade 12 Physics were only offered in alternating years, the Grade 11 course in the first semester and the Grade 12 course in the second semester. So both grades take Grade 11 physics together in the first term, and both grades take Grade 12 physics together in the second term.

The billion dollars in savings would come from reductions in administrative staff, efficiencies of having the same bureaucracy, and from savings in transportation from smaller catchment areas.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think I've mentioned before that IMO Catholic schools in Ontario have become more devout in recent years. I base this on what my nephews and nieces say they are learning, and also comments from my relatives who teach in them.

I went to Ontario Catholic schools for part of my education and it was very "cafeteria Catholic" back in the day. It's not like that so much today.

This is largely because of their declining enrollment and the aggressive way the government is pushing liberal policies on them. It's a reaction to a perception of attack and loss of influence. Plus it's a reaction to the overall secularization of society at large.

Long term, this will backfire because it deters parents from choosing them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

The Catholic high schools here, btw, took out their libraries and replaced them with chapels.

Good example of what I was saying. None of the Ontario Catholic schools I went to had a chapel. In one of them, in fact, the chapel was turned into a gym.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is largely because of their declining enrollment and the aggressive way the government is pushing liberal policies on them. It's a reaction to a perception of attack and loss of influence. Plus it's a reaction to the overall secularization of society at large.

Long term, this will backfire because it deters parents from choosing them.

Yeah, they aren't allowed many "exceptions" to human rights issues any more, like denying demands from gay students, or even firing teachers or other staff that might refer a pregnant teenager to an abortion clinic...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by wave46

The big fight will be with the teachers unions. The billions in savings will come from having fewer teachers as most of the costs in education are salaries (as is the case with most government operations).

The rationalization will mean layoffs and they will not go quietly into the good night. The big losers will be the teachers at the bottom - they'll get cut and be in a very bad job market for teaching in general.

I think that's why the province is reluctant to get into this mess, constitutional reasons aside.

There have already been many staff reductions over the last decade in many schools. And yes, it's the teachers with the least amount or no experience who have the hardest time as they are first to go. The way the unions fight for teachers is by fighting for smaller class sizes. Smaller sized classes are always much better for students but do cost more.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think I've mentioned before that IMO Catholic schools in Ontario have become more devout in recent years. I base this on what my nephews and nieces say they are learning, and also comments from my relatives who teach in them.

I went to Ontario Catholic schools for part of my education and it was very "cafeteria Catholic" back in the day. It's not like that so much today.

More devout? I did supply teaching at the English Catholic board in Timmins and found that the schools had very little focus on the Catholic faith. Barely anybody on staff went to church and nobody wanted to teach the religious courses.

[vid]

RC Board turns down arbitration, offers more talks
Contract negotiations may resume soon between the Thunder Bay Catholic District School board and its elementary teachers.

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-ne...e-talks-507510

The Thunder Bay branch of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association says the separate school board has now declined its offer of Dec. 23 to seek binding arbitration to achieve a new collective agreement.

...

The teachers have been working to rule since last June.

.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

More devout? I did supply teaching at the English Catholic board in Timmins and found that the schools had very little focus on the Catholic faith. Barely anybody on staff went to church and nobody wanted to teach the religious courses.

I still think it's more devout and more Catholico-Catholic than before.

I've mentioned before on this forum that my nephews and nieces have been told by teachers that the stuff other religions say is all "make-believe", but that the stuff about Jesus is all real and happened exactly the way it's said in the Bible.

We were not taught in this way in Ontario Catholic schools when I was a kid. Neither was my wife, who unlike me spent all of her school years in them. She was as shocked as I was when she heard this.

[1overcosc]

I think it varies based on the school board. My sister is a teacher in the Ottawa Catholic school board (like me, she is an atheist of Jewish background), and based on what I hear from her, the school board is pretty liberal.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by wave46

The big fight will be with the teachers unions. The billions in savings will come from having fewer teachers as most of the costs in education are salaries (as is the case with most government operations).

The rationalization will mean layoffs and they will not go quietly into the good night. The big losers will be the teachers at the bottom - they'll get cut and be in a very bad job market for teaching in general.

I think that's why the province is reluctant to get into this mess, constitutional reasons aside.

Both ETFO and OSSTF are for eliminating Catholic schools. The AEFO can't say they are against religious schools, because a large portion of their members teach in the catholic system (AEFO represents Catholic and Public teachers in the French system). There would be some teaching jobs lost, particularly in rural and Northern Ontario, where, like I've mentioned before, you would no longer need 4 schools to stay open, just 2. The bigger savings would be higher up. Not having 2 of everything.. director of education, board employees making 100K+, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think it varies based on the school board. My sister is a teacher in the Ottawa Catholic school board (like me, she is an atheist of Jewish background), and based on what I hear from her, the school board is pretty liberal.

Well...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-on-gay-rights

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I still think it's more devout and more Catholico-Catholic than before.

I've mentioned before on this forum that my nephews and nieces have been told by teachers that the stuff other religions say is all "make-believe", but that the stuff about Jesus is all real and happened exactly the way it's said in the Bible.

We were not taught in this way in Ontario Catholic schools when I was a kid. Neither was my wife, who unlike me spent all of her school years in them. She was as shocked as I was when she heard this.

I can't believe that teachers would be saying things like that to students. It sounds like something some evangelicals I know would say. I'm not sure how old you are Acajack but a lot of the older people here who went to Catholic schools tell me about how crazy some of the nuns and priests were back in the day. I can certainly see why so many people stopped going to church.

Timmins is about 62% Catholic according to the 2011 National Household Survey. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/...556027&TABID=1 It was actually about 70% 25 years ago but almost all of the loss is now in the "no religion" group. Even most people I went to school with in public school were "Catholic." BUT, I don't know of many who go to church more than a couple times a year and say that they pray, go to confession, etc..

So I can certainly see Catholic schools being challenged in the near future. I know that the Timmins Catholic schools are very liberal and have to be in order to keep enrollment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I can't believe that teachers would be saying things like that to students. It sounds like something some evangelicals I know would say. I'm not sure how old you are Acajack but a lot of the older people here who went to Catholic schools tell me about how crazy some of the nuns and priests were back in the day. I can certainly see why so many people stopped going to church.

Timmins is about 62% Catholic according to the 2011 National Household Survey. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/...556027&TABID=1 It was actually about 70% 25 years ago but almost all of the loss is now in the "no religion" group. Even most people I went to school with in public school were "Catholic." BUT, I don't know of many who go to church more than a couple times a year and say that they pray, go to confession, etc..

So I can certainly see Catholic schools being challenged in the near future. I know that the Timmins Catholic schools are very liberal and have to be in order to keep enrollment.

My anecdote with my nieces and nephews is from about 5 years ago. And the article I posted is fairly recent.

I am in my 40s and went to a couple of Ontario Catholic schools in the 1980s.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think that that Catholic schools are especially bad in this respect. I wouldn't have an issue sending my kids there, for example.

But I do think that certain things they do (even these days) do make them vulnerable to criticism, at a time when they may be on thin ice in terms of political support and public opinion.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My anecdote with my nieces and nephews is from about 5 years ago. And the article I posted is fairly recent.

I am in my 40s and went to a couple of Ontario Catholic schools in the 1980s.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think that that Catholic schools are especially bad in this respect. I wouldn't have an issue sending my kids there, for example.

But I do think that certain things they do (even these days) do make them vulnerable to criticism, at a time when they may be on thin ice in terms of political support and public opinion.

I am in my early 40s so I guess we are pretty close in age. I would consider sending my child to a Catholic school if it offered better programs even though I'm not Catholic. I know a lot of evangelical protestant people who sent their kids to schools that are with the Catholic board.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I am in my early 40s so I guess we are pretty close in age. I would consider sending my child to a Catholic school if it offered better programs even though I'm not Catholic. I know a lot of evangelical protestant people who sent their kids to schools that are with the Catholic board.

If you're a francophone in Eastern Ontario (incl. Ottawa) the Catholic system is probably the best option for a quality education for your kids.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you're a francophone in Eastern Ontario (incl. Ottawa) the Catholic system is probably the best option for a quality education for your kids.

It's not just in Eastern Ontario. This problem exists across the Province. The French Public system is still relatively new (there are only 4 boards across the entire Province).

In Toronto, this is a big issue. It's almost like, if you are Franco-Ontarien, native to Ontario, and you want them to get the same "French" dialect you have/speak, you send them to the Catholic system, because it follows more the Franco-Ontarien dialect/colloquialisms . The Public system is much more a mix of the International/African French. I agree this is an issue (people not wanting to send their kids there), but know of a few Friends who made the choice based on this one issue.

This is why we need to merge the systems. It's discriminatory.