How cool is Chicago?

[Antares41]

Well first off, yes, Chicago is cool. Ok, now that we got that out of the way. Having been a resident of the Buffalo area for over 20 years you can talk about housing architecture, street grid system, whatever! in terms of the people and their sense of what part of the country they belong, Buffalo is northeastern. Yes Ohio is just less than 2 hours away (Pennsylvania is even closer). But what goes on in Ohio, other than the weather, never get mentioned. Buffalo and Rochester are much more eastward looking due to issues of the state (i.e. Albany and lesser extent NYC) and yes even something as overlooked as sport team affiliations. So, when I see maps or people lumping Buffalo, Rochester and even Pittsburgh for that matter into the mid-west I'm just scratching my head in bewilderment.

[Steely Dan]

^ i don't think most people would lump buffalo in with the midwest (that dumb map posted earlier in this thread notwithstanding). it's not really "east coast" either, but being in NYS, the northeast is really the only macro-region that makes sense for it.

however, being on the great lakes, i'm curious if the people of buffalo have any kind of "great lakes" regional identity as well. here in chicago, the de facto capital city of the midwest, we also see ourselves as a part of a "great lakes region" that is a subset of the midwest that includes wisconsin, michigan, indiana, and ohio (the old northwest territory states). does buffalo assume any kind of "great lakes" identity along with it's northeast identity, or is the great lakes region seen as something else, something further west that starts in ohio?

[10023]

As someone that grew up in Chicago, I always thought a definition of "Midwest" that included everything from Lake Erie to Nebraska was too broad.

[JManc]

Midwest is a holdover term when it was everything between the original 13/ east coast states and the uncharted/ unclaimed west. I think "Great Lakes region" is far better categorization for cities in that region and their similarities. Buffalo is no way a 'Midwest' city but it certainly is "Great Lakes" along with nearby cities in other states (and Canada). To me, Cleveland and Buffalo have more in common with each other than Cincinnati/Columbus or Albany/ NYC respectively.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by 10023

As someone that grew up in Chicago, I always thought a definition of "Midwest" that included everything from Lake Erie to Nebraska was too broad.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that term, really. I mean it's sort of like saying "out west" or something, but a little more specific. Terms like "Great Lakes Region" are instructive, but I don't think people really get the specific nature of that in some areas of the country.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ i don't think most people would lump buffalo in with the midwest (that dumb map posted earlier in this thread notwithstanding). it's not really "east coast" either, but being in NYS, the northeast is really the only macro-region that makes sense for it.

however, being on the great lakes, i'm curious if the people of buffalo have any kind of "great lakes" regional identity as well. here in chicago, the de facto capital city of the midwest, we also see ourselves as a part of a "great lakes region" that is a subset of the midwest that includes wisconsin, michigan, indiana, and ohio (the old northwest territory states). does buffalo assume any kind of "great lakes" identity along with it's northeast identity, or is the great lakes region seen as something else, something further west that starts in ohio?

Growing up in Erie PA, there was definitely a connection to the eastern Great Lakes region and cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and to a much lesser extent Toronto. But Cleveland was the furthest point west (in the region) that was even on my radar until I was 31 (which is kinda embarrassing).

Toledo might as well have been Utah for me, my family, and friends when I was growing up. To say nothing of Chicago. It just seemed like such a separate part of the country. Meanwhile, Buffalo and Upstate NY, Pittsburgh and the rest of PA, and the Philadelphia/NJ/NYC areas were where family & friends lived (and live) and neighbors were from, where friends' older siblings headed to college, where classmates headed to college, where frequent vacations and trips were made, etc... aside from the economic and cultural and media connections to points east. That was my frame of reference.

To this day, I only know 2 people who live in Chicago, yet I don't think I could accurately count the number of people I know in Philly and NYC and DC. As I said, it's somewhat embarrassing that I had not visited Chicago and knew no more about it besides how it was portrayed on TV/movies and due to the the sports teams.

Anyway, it's an interesting topic to me obviously... and I think that's due to having grown up in the weird transition zone of western PA. It was definitely not East Coast, but it was also definitely not Midwest.

Originally Posted by JManc

Midwest is a holdover term when it was everything between the original 13/ east coast states and the uncharted/ unclaimed west. I think "Great Lakes region" is far better categorization for cities in that region and their similarities. Buffalo is no way a 'Midwest' city but it certainly is "Great Lakes" along with nearby cities in other states (and Canada). To me, Cleveland and Buffalo have more in common with each other than Cincinnati/Columbus or Albany/ NYC respectively.

Definitely. Though a place like Pittsburgh/SW PA is decidedly non-Great Lakes. It's really a place unto itself... sharing bits of east coast, Appalachia, mid-Atlantic, and maybe a bit of Great Lakes.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I don't think there is anything wrong with that term, really. I mean it's sort of like saying "out west" or something, but a little more specific. Terms like "Great Lakes Region" are instructive, but I don't think people really get the specific nature of that in some areas of the country.

It's too much of an overly-broad generalization for such a vast and totally different tract of the country. It just doesn't make any sense. Cleveland is nothing like Omaha. Kansas City in nothing like Youngstown. It's like saying Denver and LA are part of the same region of the country because they are both "out west".

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I don't think there is anything wrong with that term, really. I mean it's sort of like saying "out west" or something, but a little more specific. Terms like "Great Lakes Region" are instructive, but I don't think people really get the specific nature of that in some areas of the country.

I agree, seems like many Midwesterners are obsessed with trying to define the region as anything but Midwestern. Some places, specifically Great Lakes cities want to disassociate themselves with the dreaded "flyover" label perpetuated by coastal elites. Yet many Northerners have no problem viewing or describing the "South" as one large monolithic region, when the South is America's largest and likely most diverse region, geographically and culturally. With that said, the Midwest (like the South) is a large and diverse region, just like the South, West, or Northeast and that is something we should take pride in.

As far as Great Lakes cities, you can run into the same problem. I've always felt that Chicago is way more similar to St. Louis than it is to Buffalo, even though, St. Louis feels a lot more like Cincinnati than it does Chicago, but overall Cincinnati looks way more like Pittsburgh than it does Cleveland, even though Pittsburgh is way closer to Cleveland, which looks more like Buffalo. See how crazy this thing can get? At the end of the day, all of these cities are way more similar to each other than they are say Tampa or Los Angeles or even Atlanta or Nashville.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Growing up in Erie PA, there was definitely a connection to the eastern Great Lakes region and cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and to a much lesser extent Toronto. But Cleveland was the furthest point west (in the region) that was even on my radar until I was 31 (which is kinda embarrassing).

but do people in Erie and Buffalo and Rochester consider themselves to be living in a "Great Lakes" city (quotation marks intentional). are the words "Great Lakes" at all a part of the regional identity of those cities in a similar way that Chicago and Milwaukee and Detroit and Cleveland consider themselves to be "Great Lakes" cities?

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Growing up in Erie PA, there was definitely a connection to the eastern Great Lakes region and cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and to a much lesser extent Toronto. But Cleveland was the furthest point west (in the region) that was even on my radar until I was 31 (which is kinda embarrassing).

Toledo might as well have been Utah for me, my family, and friends when I was growing up. To say nothing of Chicago. It just seemed like such a separate part of the country. Meanwhile, Buffalo and Upstate NY, Pittsburgh and the rest of PA, and the Philadelphia/NJ/NYC areas were where family & friends lived (and live) and neighbors were from, where friends' older siblings headed to college, where classmates headed to college, where frequent vacations and trips were made, etc... aside from the economic and cultural and media connections to points east. That was my frame of reference.

To this day, I only know 2 people who live in Chicago, yet I don't think I could accurately count the number of people I know in Philly and NYC and DC. As I said, it's somewhat embarrassing that I had not visited Chicago and knew no more about it besides how it was portrayed on TV/movies and due to the the sports teams.

Anyway, it's an interesting topic to me obviously... and I think that's due to having grown up in the weird transition zone of western PA. It was definitely not East Coast, but it was also definitely not Midwest.



Definitely. Though a place like Pittsburgh/SW PA is decidedly non-Great Lakes. It's really a place unto itself... sharing bits of east coast, Appalachia, mid-Atlantic, and maybe a bit of Great Lakes.



It's too much of an overly-broad generalization for such a vast and totally different tract of the country. It just doesn't make any sense. Cleveland is nothing like Omaha. Kansas City in nothing like Youngstown. It's like saying Denver and LA are part of the same region of the country because they are both "out west".

Very true, but many people would call St. Louis a Southern or Great Plains city, when it feels more like Pittsburgh than Cleveland, which are a short distance from one another. I think the age and cultural legacy of a city, has a lot to do with feel also.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Toledo might as well have been Utah for me, my family, and friends when I was growing up. To say nothing of Chicago. It just seemed like such a separate part of the country. Meanwhile, Buffalo and Upstate NY, Pittsburgh and the rest of PA, and the Philadelphia/NJ/NYC areas were where family & friends lived (and live) and neighbors were from, where friends' older siblings headed to college, where classmates headed to college, where frequent vacations and trips were made, etc... aside from the economic and cultural and media connections to points east. That was my frame of reference.

I think there are two things here. First, Erie (and Buffalo) can be considered Great Lakes cites, and in some ways more tied in with Chicago, Detroit and the like than the East Coast cities.

But, at the same time, there can be more interplay with the East Coast cities. Just because you're in one region doesn't mean there aren't some stronger relationships with another region.

For example, Chicago is a very big draw for college grads, but NYC is an enormous draw. So the relative "catchment" isn't the same.

If you look at B10 grads, Chicago almost certainly gets the most Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Purdue grads, but after that it gets fuzzy. Maybe Michigan State too. Indiana and Michigan I feel attract lots of East Coasters and I'm not sure if they don't go to NYC in equal or larger numbers, even if closer to Chicago. I mean, how many Long Islanders are in Ann Arbor? I'm guessing a ton.

Ohio State I definitely feel heads more to NYC/East Coast than to Chicago. Ohio overall seems to head more towards NYC/DC than to points west. But I still feel Ohio has more in common with Illinois than with New York or New Jersey.

[jbermingham123]

I messed up this post but had to create a new one. Now i can't delete it. Could a mod delete this one?

[ColDayMan]

Ohio State I definitely feel heads more to NYC/East Coast than to Chicago

- Without question, yes. Damn near half of Ohio State is from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland.

Ohio overall seems to head more towards NYC/DC than to points west

While that is correct, the trend is now heading south (North Carolina, Florida, and Texas all come to mind). But certainly more Ohioans "in their mind" head to NYC/DC moreso than, say, Chicago or Minneapolis. But keep in mind, Ohio is a highly populated state so you'll see people from Ohio in Chicago, Phoenix, or Los Angeles.

But I still feel Ohio has more in common with Illinois than with New York or New Jersey.

Ohio is a mixture of regions. There is no common "Ohio." Northwest Ohio is without question more like Illinois than New York. Northeast Ohio is more New York state (really, more Connecticut) than Illinois. Southwest Ohio is just Ohio Valley. Central Ohio is just a weird hybrid of Midwest and Appalachia. Southeast Ohio might as well be West Virginia.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but do people in Erie and Buffalo and Rochester consider themselves to be living in a "Great Lakes" city (quotation marks intentional). are the words "Great Lakes" at all a part of the regional identity of those cities in a similar way that Chicago and Milwaukee and Detroit and Cleveland consider themselves to be "Great Lakes" cities?

Yes... but definitely not in as strong of a manner as in Chicago, Milwaukee, etc., I would assume. I think it is a situation where states like NY and PA are overall just not as oriented to the Lakes as states to the west are. So significant state cultural influences in NY and PA are not related to Lakes Erie or Ontario at all... this is especially true in PA.

Erie is a complete oddball in PA, being the only part of the state that touches a lake (Pennsylvania can barely consider itself a Great Lakes state officially and to the majority of the state's population, Lake Erie is totally foreign). NY has such a focus on NYC, that even in a Great Lakes city like Buffalo, a Great Lakes "culture" is really watered down by non-Great Lakes influence from the rest of the state. In Erie, this is even more true... the predominant culture/affiliation in PA has ZERO to do with Lake Erie. For anyplace in PA east of the mountains, Erie might as well be in Ohio... it is a complete unknown for much of PA, even though it is one of the state's larger cities. It is just much more closely affiliated with SW NY (and NE OH to a smaller extent) than it is the rest of PA, including Pittsburgh... so in that sense, I would say yes, Erie definitely considers itself a Great Lakes city and Lake Erie most definitely shapes the regional identity. Its origin and history is intricately tied to Lake Erie, and it simply looks very different from other cities/towns in the state -- port city vs. mountain/river valley city.

"Great Lakes" states usually have their most major cities on one...

Illinois: Chicago
Michigan: Detroit (ok, technically not on a Great Lake, but purposefully situated as a strategic control point between two Great Lakes)
Wisconsin: Milwaukee
Ohio: Cleveland, Toledo
New York: Buffalo, Rochester
Ontario: Toronto, Hamilton

And then you have...

Pennsylvania: Erie

[jbermingham123]

I think the source of much confusion here is simply what defines a megaregion. All the other megaregions on that america 2050 map are fairly straightforward, but the midwest is puzzling....

The answer, in my opinion, is that the midwest is not a megaregion. Its more of a 'polyregion'... a megaregion of smaller megaregions, if you will.

I made a map a couple years ago of the "Great Lakes Megaregion" and its ideal transit system. The Great Lakes in this sense is a polyregion containing 8 agglomerations, all independent of one another, yet linked by their proximity and economic interdependence.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think there are two things here. First, Erie (and Buffalo) can be considered Great Lakes cites, and in some ways more tied in with Chicago, Detroit and the like than the East Coast cities.

But, at the same time, there can be more interplay with the East Coast cities. Just because you're in one region doesn't mean there aren't some stronger relationships with another region.

For example, Chicago is a very big draw for college grads, but NYC is an enormous draw. So the relative "catchment" isn't the same.

If you look at B10 grads, Chicago almost certainly gets the most Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Purdue grads, but after that it gets fuzzy. Maybe Michigan State too. Indiana and Michigan I feel attract lots of East Coasters and I'm not sure if they don't go to NYC in equal or larger numbers, even if closer to Chicago. I mean, how many Long Islanders are in Ann Arbor? I'm guessing a ton.

Ohio State I definitely feel heads more to NYC/East Coast than to Chicago. Ohio overall seems to head more towards NYC/DC than to points west. But I still feel Ohio has more in common with Illinois than with New York or New Jersey.

Yes, I think you make good points. Western NY and western PA (and even NE OH) really make up a transition zone, where similarities and ties exist to both east and west... that spectrum that some have mentioned. I agree that Erie and Buffalo are unquestionably Great Lakes cities (2 of the older and most important ones historically in fact), but share connection/interplay with points east to a greater degree than to the larger Great Lakes region... which I think is natural since both Erie and Buffalo are in states that have their dominant metro areas at the extreme opposite ends of their respective states.

...

And speaking of B10 universities, I've certainly witnessed a greater connection between Pennsylvania and the midwest since Penn State joined the B10. And there still is a lot of pretty strong sentiment against that move. The connection and "rivalries" remain quite forced, but with Maryland and Rutgers joining as well, it's starting to seem a bit more natural. Growing up in western PA, there was just much stronger knowledge of and connection with colleges and universities to the east. The Big East (and the east coast Div. II & III conferences) was the basketball conference for us growing up and in football it was all the independents (who then formed the Big East football conf.): Miami, Penn State, Pitt, BC, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, etc. Aside from Ohio St, Michigan, and Mich St... the B10 was farm boys to us.

EDIT: Just want to clarify that last point about B10 being "farm boys"... I mentioned that to display the ignorant viewpoint I had growing up about what must have existed in the midwest in my mind. I certainly do not believe that to be true. It's an attitude that is akin to a prevailing East Coast attitude about areas to the west of the mountains... or even west of Jersey.

[Centropolis]

where else do shirtwaists dominate? They are all over Kansas City and I dont know where that came from. you google "shirtwaist" and you automatically get a house in kc. some have a brick band/waist all the way around, but often/usually they are stone. i dont think ive seen this anywhere else but the housing stock of kc is sort of eastern great lakes like. there is also the "colonnade" apt bldg which completely dominates. theres identical shirtwaists and colonnades all across town.



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sarahsnodgrass.com


droitanglais.com

[Hamilton]

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[Hamilton]

Originally Posted by Labridniv

Private Dick... Your username fits you very well. If your opinions are based upon stupid crap like that then you should move to Shanghai because it is the biggest city in the world and city's like New York compared to it...Don't matter.
---

Everyone please remember, just because it is smaller of a city then New York, that is an invalid reason to hate on it. You might as well make fun of little people too.

You just made a fool of yourself on so many levels. Not least of which is your inability to detect heavy-handed sarcasm.

That said, the only people shitting on another city in this thread are the pro-Chicago people. That doesn't do much to support Chicago's claim to be more unpretentious and less douchey than other US cities.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

where else do shirtwaists dominate? They are all over Kansas City and I dont know where that came from. you google "shirtwaist" and you automatically get a house in kc. some have a brick band/waist all the way around, but often/usually they are stone. i dont think ive seen this anywhere else but the housing stock of kc is sort of eastern great lakes like. there is also the "colonnade" apt bldg which completely dominates. theres identical shirtwaists and colonnades all across town.

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sarahsnodgrass.com


droitanglais.com

I've never heard the term 'shirtwaist' for am architectural style, though there are very similar styles all over the place, particularly with brick on the first level. They seem to have the basic structure of the ubiquitous foursquare... which are pretty much everywhere due to Sears.

That colonnade apartment building reminds me of apartment buildings I've seen a lot in southern US cities.

[Antares41]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ i don't think most people would lump buffalo in with the midwest (that dumb map posted earlier in this thread notwithstanding). it's not really "east coast" either, but being in NYS, the northeast is really the only macro-region that makes sense for it.

however, being on the great lakes, i'm curious if the people of buffalo have any kind of "great lakes" regional identity as well. here in chicago, the de facto capital city of the midwest, we also see ourselves as a part of a "great lakes region" that is a subset of the midwest that includes wisconsin, michigan, indiana, and ohio (the old northwest territory states). does buffalo assume any kind of "great lakes" identity along with it's northeast identity, or is the great lakes region seen as something else, something further west that starts in ohio?

Not much mention of the "great lakes" in a regional sense it only comes up amongst people here if there is a discussion around water pollution, and of course, specifically Lake Erie. Perhaps when the freight traffic on the lakes has at its height in Buffalo, there might have been a greater identification with the other regions and cities on the lakes. However, since the construction of the Welland Canal, Buffalo connection to the lake other than as a water source and a place for recreation has waned. Buffalo does however still takes some pride in being the second largest city in NY state and since most of the region that it influences (with Rochester) are east of the city, that were the attention (news, weather, recreation, sports, etc.) is focused. In my opinion Buffalo is northeast focus. If you drive around the region your likely to see ten cars with Ontario plates for every one from PA or OH. Also, lots of MA plates when the Patriots come to town.