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  #1841  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2010, 4:23 PM
ATLaffinity ATLaffinity is offline
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Originally Posted by micropundit View Post
Just because you don't count it doesn't mean that it a) doesn't exist and b) isn't functional. Further, there is greenspace at the corner of 17th and State where the artifacts from the steel yard were moved;and the "Town Center" space where the Holiday exhibits et al are placed.
Perhaps your view of AS is obscured by your seat in front of your monitor, however others have a different and perhaps more rational perspective.
That pond functions as what? A place to curb your dog? Ok. I'm saying it's not greenspace. I go there on my way to Target. It's not like I've only read about it.

cwkimbro has a much better explanation of what's wrong with AS. I just think they could have made it more inviting for residents. Hopefully it will evolve.

As for the Olympics, it's considered the worst in modern memory. I'm sure a lot of good and talented people did great things in hosting the event. That's not going to change that perception. I visited as an out-of-towner and it was a really off-putting experience. Did it put Atlanta "on the map" to some degree? Yes. I agree with that.
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  #1842  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2010, 8:17 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
I agree with the ATLAffinity.

I like denser developments like AS, but the catch is since you don't have the yard there should be a little bit of public space where people can read outside, play frisbee, etc.. in relatively close distance.

It doesn't need to be anywhere near as big as Piedmont Park, but rather small public spaces in the middle of denser development nodes. A small public square, like those in Savannah with some shady areas and benches right beside a small open grassy area would go a long ways. It is probably the biggest reason I will never consider moving into AS. The development strategy of residential spaces of the beltline is much better.

Think of the difference being a neighborhood park vs a larger city park, like Piedmont. AS needs that 'neighborhood park' that is smaller, but is right there and would primarily be positioned directly for use of AS residents (and probably Home Park residents as well). It would also be a means of increasing desirability to live there.

As a city grows denser small neighborhood parks become more important, however usually easier to pay for through increase property tax collections.

But to go a step further...I am also concerned with the lack of a 'neighborhood retail' node with a small cobble stone 'plaza.' The assumption seemed to be everyone should just walk to Atlantic Station, which is designed to be a regional draw (similar to a shopping mall).

I would removed just a few residential units at street level and added street front retail for residential services (coffee shop, dry cleaning, local pizza shop etc..) I would have also done it at an intersection and had the buildings not cover a small semi-circle area at the intersection. This leaves a small room for outdoor space. A couple of tables...perhaps a small tree and a planter bench for more seating. Being at an intersection it would make that small itty bitty space feel more spacious. I would have done this at the intersection of 17th st and McCaslin St. Also, I don't mean for there to be retail at street level everywhere, but just at one central usable point where essential neighborhood vendors could operate without residents driving out of the neighborhood.

What is interesting to me is if you look at an aerial photograph of the dense residential area of AS around the 17th street retention pond it actually looks similar to a European City, but there is a notable lack of -usable- public space and residential retail services at street level. There is, however, good -visual- public space around Atlantic Station.

But, I also don't live there for those reasons. Maybe some residents on here have a few tricks up there sleeves I don't know about (?)
Now I'm a little confused because as far as I can tell AS has exactly everything in your wish list. Is the rule now that greenspace doesn't count as greenspace unless frisbee-toss can be played there?


Now it is understandable for someone that has those activities as a priority that AS might not be for them. But I also think it is quite unrealistic to expect a frisbee-throw-park around every corner in the core of the city.
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  #1843  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
Now it is understandable for someone that has those activities as a priority that AS might not be for them. But I also think it is quite unrealistic to expect a frisbee-throw-park around every corner in the core of the city.
It can definitely be said that there is zoning fragmentation within the development. On a hot summer day, it would be pretty unbearable to comfortably walk from the lofts across from IKEA to the Publix.

Outside of "The District", it would be nice to see more mixed-use street level retail spread out amongst the development. Hopefully the GT Golf Course/Sembler development will provide a southern anchor.

In terms of greenspace expansion, look forward to the Loring Heights pedestrian bridge behind Target and the Beltline trail spur. It'd be nice if AS kicked in some money to make sure the trail portion is top-notch.

Also, there are tentative plans, though I can't seem to find them, for a HOV/Pedestrian Bridge at 15th Street. Also, the Northside/Hemphill/14th Intersection is slated to be converted to a round-a-bout.
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  #1844  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2010, 8:39 PM
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That pond functions as what? A place to curb your dog? Ok. I'm saying it's not greenspace. I go there on my way to Target. It's not like I've only read about it.
The pond actually serves as a drainage-basin for storm runoff. However seeing as the site used to be a steel mill, I feel like the ducks currently inhabiting may be radioactive.
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  #1845  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2010, 10:01 PM
cwkimbro cwkimbro is offline
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
Now I'm a little confused because as far as I can tell AS has exactly everything in your wish list. Is the rule now that greenspace doesn't count as greenspace unless frisbee-toss can be played there?


Now it is understandable for someone that has those activities as a priority that AS might not be for them. But I also think it is quite unrealistic to expect a frisbee-throw-park around every corner in the core of the city.
Well... I tried to be careful about this, but I stick with my original arguments. AS does not have everything on my wish list.
It does not have residential-retail node, the public plaza for that node and residents, or a usable neighborhood park.

It does have greenspace, but it is all 'visual'. There isn't much 'usable' space. I used frisbee as an example, but there are many other uses for a usable park that you can't do in AS and I think it is an important distinction between -usable- park space and -visual- greenspace.

It should be telling that someone earlier in the thread was making the argument people should walk 1.5-2 miles to go to Piedmont Park

The design of 17th street with the center retention pond is an excellent example. There is visual open space. It looks impressive and I won't take that away from them. The design also takes 1/2 of the traffic from being in front of any one residential building, however the design also makes the green space around the lake small immediately bordering the lake or the road within a short distance. It is good for visual appeal, but it can't function like a neighborhood park.
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  #1846  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 3:31 AM
PedestriAnne PedestriAnne is offline
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What was that muddy, half fenced-in, empty lot on the east side of Icon (at 17th and State) originally supposed to be? It seems too small for another residential building to fit on.

That seems as good a place as any for a park, especially since there's some public space right next to it. Might as well put it to some use instead of letting people use it as free parking, which is what I almost always see when I walk by there.
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  #1847  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 3:46 AM
cwkimbro cwkimbro is offline
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Originally Posted by PedestriAnne View Post
What was that muddy, half fenced-in, empty lot on the east side of Icon (at 17th and State) originally supposed to be? It seems too small for another residential building to fit on.

That seems as good a place as any for a park, especially since there's some public space right next to it. Might as well put it to some use instead of letting people use it as free parking, which is what I almost always see when I walk by there.
The original plans (and most likely current...but recession-stalled plans) were to make a residential building. Most likely one that is a transition between the high rises and the low-rises. It is also why they never landscaped the land.

http://www.atlanticstation.com/image...Plan_large.jpg

Now with that said... You will notice that there are some changes from the original plan to what Atlantic Station is today. As market demand changes its used might be changed to what the developers can sell. I don't think it will be anything other than residential, mixed-use, or a hotel though. It would be tough to zone that as commercial/office given its location.
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  #1848  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 2:28 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Originally Posted by jew4life4948 View Post
It can definitely be said that there is zoning fragmentation within the development. On a hot summer day, it would be pretty unbearable to comfortably walk from the lofts across from IKEA to the Publix.

Outside of "The District", it would be nice to see more mixed-use street level retail spread out amongst the development. Hopefully the GT Golf Course/Sembler development will provide a southern anchor.

In terms of greenspace expansion, look forward to the Loring Heights pedestrian bridge behind Target and the Beltline trail spur. It'd be nice if AS kicked in some money to make sure the trail portion is top-notch.

Also, there are tentative plans, though I can't seem to find them, for a HOV/Pedestrian Bridge at 15th Street. Also, the Northside/Hemphill/14th Intersection is slated to be converted to a round-a-bout.
I don't disagree that it perhaps would've been ideal to have the retail concentrated on the main corridor. But again that is an impossible standard. From those apartments to Publix is what... maybe five blocks? How many cities can support a retail district within five blocks of every resident. If they can't walk that distance then they basically can't walk anywhere, regardless of the season.
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  #1849  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
I don't disagree that it perhaps would've been ideal to have the retail concentrated on the main corridor. But again that is an impossible standard. From those apartments to Publix is what... maybe five blocks? How many cities can support a retail district within five blocks of every resident. If they can't walk that distance then they basically can't walk anywhere, regardless of the season.
Agreed. I walked from IKEA to the retail core last night in under five minutes. I couldn't help but think of this post and how utterly lazy most Atlantans are when it comes to walking.

Nothing is going to change in the region until the mentality changes, and it's a hell of a lot more difficult to change culture than it is to change the urban form.

There was a study done several year by Bermick & Cervero that identified the different conception of what is a "short walk" in different cities. Among the findings was that, in New York City, the distance "most people" will walk for services and transit is greater than in any other US city. Part of this has to do with a more walker-friendly urban form, but I suspect that even more is cultural.

As a case in point, I will never forget when I hosted a public meeting in the Beaver Ruin area of Gwinnett county and asked recent immigrants what they liked the most of the area. Person after person talked about how they liked that they could walk to different places. We probed a bit more and found that many considered it nothing to walk two or three miles to stores and businesses, even in the abysmal conditions that exist out there. It was a real eye opener.
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  #1850  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
I don't disagree that it perhaps would've been ideal to have the retail concentrated on the main corridor. But again that is an impossible standard. From those apartments to Publix is what... maybe five blocks? How many cities can support a retail district within five blocks of every resident. If they can't walk that distance then they basically can't walk anywhere, regardless of the season.

Ya'll make excellent points. I also realize your comments aren't said directly at mine, but I wanted to tie them into the points I was trying to make real quick.

In the residential area of Atlantic station it is easy to walk to Ikea or the major shopping retail area. However, for me, those are regional shopping magnets where people from all over come.

However, I want to see small nodes that are directly for the residents. The major retail area will attract businesses dictated by people who travel there from outside the neighborhood. I think the neighborhood needs a small area that is residential services in nature that alot of people from outside the area wouldn't necessarily travel to. In many cities this usually amounts to a laundromat, a dry cleaner, one or two food shops (pizza, coffee), and perhaps a local watering hole where neighbors can meet at the end of the work day. I travel alot in Europe and I have a good friend that lives in Chicago and these seem to be common things that are found in the denser residential neighborhoods.

For me it isn't just about walking distance, but it is about encouraging different types of businesses, who uses them, and how they are used. I also thinks it helps build a neighborhood culture/community as well.
It is also one of several reasons I think there should be a small neighborhood park vs. walking almost two miles to Piedmont Park anytime you want access to a park.
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  #1851  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2010, 10:17 PM
cwkimbro cwkimbro is offline
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Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
Agreed. I walked from IKEA to the retail core last night in under five minutes. I couldn't help but think of this post and how utterly lazy most Atlantans are when it comes to walking.

Nothing is going to change in the region until the mentality changes, and it's a hell of a lot more difficult to change culture than it is to change the urban form.

There was a study done several year by Bermick & Cervero that identified the different conception of what is a "short walk" in different cities. Among the findings was that, in New York City, the distance "most people" will walk for services and transit is greater than in any other US city. Part of this has to do with a more walker-friendly urban form, but I suspect that even more is cultural.

As a case in point, I will never forget when I hosted a public meeting in the Beaver Ruin area of Gwinnett county and asked recent immigrants what they liked the most of the area. Person after person talked about how they liked that they could walk to different places. We probed a bit more and found that many considered it nothing to walk two or three miles to stores and businesses, even in the abysmal conditions that exist out there. It was a real eye opener.
I think it is also because in most areas of Atlanta there are certain types of stores most can't walk to. There are a few neighborhoods, like Atlantic Station, but for the most park Grocery Stores and Hardware stores are out of range for even a longer walking distance.

The areas along Beaver Ruin have many stores that are targeting immigrants and one of the things I have noticed are small super markets, usually built in old gas station/convenience stores and sometimes in smaller strip malls. While these are still a long walk to many, it spreads out the distance to get to a store. New York is like this in many respects. You see smaller grocery stores, but there are more of them more spread out. I think this encourages people to walk more moderate distances.

In comparison, we tend to have large supermarkets that a few can walk to, but most need transit or a car to get to. In other words when they plan the size of the store they build it for a larger market area knowing that people can drive. When fewer people drive it is a smaller store, but a smaller market area and more stores.
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  #1852  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2010, 5:40 PM
BlindFatSnake BlindFatSnake is offline
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Agreed. I walked from IKEA to the retail core last night in under five minutes. I couldn't help but think of this post and how utterly lazy most Atlantans are when it comes to walking.
Nothing is going to change in the region until the mentality changes, and it's a hell of a lot more difficult to change culture than it is to change the urban form.
I couldn't agree more. I was without my personal car for 53 days and had to use MARTA (both bus and rail) to do everything. I took it in stride, and use the experience to understand how MARTA works and what are the pitfalls and headaches... I came away from that 53 day experience appreciating MARTA a helluva lot more than when I started the journey.

Some days I rode the bus to the MARTA rail station in the West End and exited at the Buckhead station, and walked 7 minutes to work. Other days, I transferred to a MARTA bus at the Lindbergh station and rode the bus to my destination.

Other times, I would take MARTA rail to Lindbergh station and walk to Home Depot for paint... than catch the train south to the Midtown station and walk to the Publix and shop for food... then walk to Max's liquor store for my weekend bottle, and reboard the southbound train. Then, stop by Five-Points (Underground) to buy a pair of shades and a knock-off watch and people watch on Peachtree Street before heading south to the West End and a transfer to a bus that would drop me off a mere half block from my home...

Some days I would catch a bus (or walk) to the West End station, get off at the Arts Center station and catch the FREE shuttle (because the MARTA bus would wait 20 minutes before departing) OR I would simply walk the short distance to LA Fitness at AS. I would often not wait for the bus...

People in Atlanta are way to lazy to even consider the benefits of transit... I currently purchase a weekly pass and ride MARTA to and from work most weeks. I'm a convert to MARTA, and wish like hell that MARTA rail was extended into Gwinnett, Cobb, and Clayton counties.

Here's to counting on MARTA to extend rail into Clayton county SOON.
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  #1853  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2010, 11:28 PM
PedestriAnne PedestriAnne is offline
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Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
Agreed. I walked from IKEA to the retail core last night in under five minutes. I couldn't help but think of this post and how utterly lazy most Atlantans are when it comes to walking.

Nothing is going to change in the region until the mentality changes, and it's a hell of a lot more difficult to change culture than it is to change the urban form.
I think I'd call it cultural influence more than laziness. A lot of people operate under the unexamined belief that you have to get everywhere as fast as possible, even if where you're going isn't time-sensitive at all. Spending 30 minutes walking somewhere rather than three minutes driving just doesn't register as a choice. People think of the walking and waiting involved in using transit as a waste of time. Time spent sitting in traffic often isn't thought of the same way, for whatever reason.

Also, this is a city in which the vast majority of middle-class adults don't really walk anywhere. (Exceptions include exercising and going to get lunch during the workday.) I think people here are afraid to be seen walking or standing at a bus stop because, well...that's for poor people, old people, crazy people, little kids and maybe foreign students. If no one you know does it, if probably feels like it's not something for "normal" people.
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  #1854  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2010, 8:38 PM
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I think some of the pedestrian mentality though is set by the environments themselves. It's one thing to walk along a sidewalk with shops, cafes, other people walking around. You look around, you're engaged, it's interesting, time flies.

But when you're the only person walking down an empty sidewalk, and the only thing to engage you is curtained up condo windows, and bare faux front entrances a five minute walk can feel like a lifetime. You just don't feel welcome. Walking through the district it can feel like the sidewalks are there more as a decorative touch than as anything to actually use.
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  #1855  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2010, 8:04 PM
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Appeals Court rules residents of the Twelve at Atlantic Station can sue developer ove

The Georgia Court of Appeals has revived a suit brought by residents of an upscale Atlantic Station condominium claiming that the developer marketed their units' "spectacular city views" while knowing those vistas would soon be obscured by another high-rise the developer had planned.

A Fulton County Superior Court judge dismissed the suit last year. But the Court of Appeals said the judge should not have relied on language in the sales contracts in which the buyers disclaimed any verbal or other guarantees about the condos that could have been made by sales agents.

"We're very encouraged," said

Weinstock & Scavo associate James R. Fletcher II, who worked on the appeal. "In this case, the Court of Appeals opinion reaffirms the principle that these defendants are not entitled to conceal their plans to block the view from the building with another building, and then try to hide behind the details of a contract."

"This is not a case about buyer's remorse," added Fletcher. "It's about seller's deceit."

Queries to the defense team, Troutman Sanders partners William M. Withrow Jr. and Thomas E. Reilly and associate Brian P. Watt, were forwarded to Novare, which provided an e-mailed statement.

"The Court of Appeals' ruling is based purely on the allegations of plaintiffs' complaint and not on any evidence, and is not a decision on the merits of Plaintiffs' surviving claims," the e-mail said. "Novare fully expects to prevail on the merits of this case, The very thing about which the plaintiffs complain in this case was expressly addressed with disclosures in Plaintiffs' purchase agreements and condominium documents that the views from their condominiums could change due to future development. As a result, the company intends to seek further judicial review of the decision and intends to continue to vigorously defend itself."

The suit was filed Dec. 31, 2008, by eight plaintiffs who purchased units on the southern side of the 26-story Twelve Atlantic Station Hotel and Residences "in or about early 2006," and named as defendants developer Novare Group and its affiliates, two corporate officers and Atlantic Station LLC. The suit accused the developers and their agents of emphasizing the downtown panorama from the units on that side of the building and promising that no other building would obscure that view.

The buyers said they were assured that any new construction "would be a low to mid rise office building" that "would not be built for at least five years."

The suit said Novare and Atlantic Station had in fact already signed a letter of intent in 2005 agreeing to develop another high-rise, the 47-story Atlantic, across 17th Street and just south of the Twelve.

When the suit was filed, the plaintiffs' attorney Michael Weinstock—whose son is one of the plaintiffs—told the Daily Report that southern-side units were more expensive.

The complaint included allegations of fraud and negligence, later adding violations of Georgia's Fair Business Practices Act. It asked the court to rescind the sales contracts and award damages and attorneys' fees.

The defense countered that the contracts clearly stated that that no oral or written statements by anyone outside of the written language of the contract itself was binding upon the parties, and that—since there was no guarantee of any particular view in those agreements—the unhappy buyers had no claim.

Further, they noted, there was even language included in the contracts that the views from the units "may change over time due to, among circumstances, additional development … ."

On Oct. 8, 2009, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Alford J. Dempsey Jr. granted a defense motion for judgment on the pleadings, ruling that the multiple disclaimers in the contract relating to guarantees from sales brokers and the possibility of changing views or lighting had put the buyers on notice that their views might change.

The judge concluded that the buyers had waited too long to seek rescission of the contracts; there had been public disclosure of the planned construction of the 47-story Atlantic condominium tower between March and May of 2006, said his order.

"Despite such notice, plaintiffs waited until Dec. 31, 2008, over two-and-a-half years later, to take any action to tender rescission of their purchase agreements," said his order. "Accordingly, this court holds as a matter of law that plaintiffs failed to timely demand or tender rescission of purchase agreements and have affirmed [them.]"

But the appeals court ruled that Dempsey had erred in dismissing the case. While it upheld portions of his order, including dismissal of negligence counts against two Novare officers, it reversed his dismissal of claims of fraud in the inducement by actual concealment, negligent misrepresentation, negligent supervision and violations of the Georgia Fair Business

Practices Act.

The opinion, written by Chief Judge M. Yvette Miller with the concurrence of presiding Judges Herbert E. Phipps and Edward H. Johnson, noted that for the purpose of the appeal of a motion on the pleadings, the facts laid out by the appellants, in this case the purchasers, are presumed to be true.

Given that presumption, the purchasers had "sufficiently set forth a claim of active fraud via active concealment" by asserting that the developers intentionally concealed their plans to build a high-rise taller than the Twelve directly across from it.

The appeals court also ruled that, contrary to the lower court's order, the purchasers had not affirmed their contracts, including the important disclaimer language. Although the original complaint did not contain a separate claim seeking to rescind the contracts, Miller wrote, the plaintiffs had sought that relief, and the fact that they did not sue for breach of contract indicated that they did not consider themselves to have accepted all of the contract terms.

As to the allegations of violations of the Fair Business act, Miller wrote that the lower court should not have ruled that the act's two-year statute of limitations barred any claims. While the original complaint mentioned a March 2006 news story reporting on the possibility of a building in that area, it was not until September 2008 "when it became apparent that construction of The Atlantic blocked their views and that value of their properties would be substantially diminished," wrote Miller.

Since the statute of limitations did not apply, the plaintiffs' claims that they had relied on false information when they purchased their units could also be heard under the Fair Business act, she wrote, because "justifiable reliance [is] an essential element of the FBPA … ."

Fletcher and fellow Weinstock associate W. Hennen Ehrenclou said the order gave them renewed hope that their clients would have their day in court.

"The Georgia Legislature has recognized in the Fair Business Practices Act that businesses can't use small-print disclosures to circumvent the act," said Ehrenclou. "These [clauses] were inserted by the sellers knowing they were going to need them later."

The Appeals Court case is Sarif v. Novare Group, No. A10A0972.
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  #1856  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2010, 3:50 AM
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That must be from the Daily Report. A sentence like "...it reversed his dismissal of claims of fraud in the inducement by actual concealment, negligent misrepresentation, negligent supervision and violations of the Georgia Fair Business" would get snatched out by an editor at a general interest paper so fast.
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  #1857  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2010, 12:06 AM
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Regal Atlantic Station will add an IMAX Theatre by December.



More IMAX for Atlanta
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  #1858  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2010, 9:11 PM
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That pond functions as what? A place to curb your dog? Ok. I'm saying it's not greenspace. I go there on my way to Target. It's not like I've only read about it.

cwkimbro has a much better explanation of what's wrong with AS. I just think they could have made it more inviting for residents. Hopefully it will evolve.

As for the Olympics, it's considered the worst in modern memory. I'm sure a lot of good and talented people did great things in hosting the event. That's not going to change that perception. I visited as an out-of-towner and it was a really off-putting experience. Did it put Atlanta "on the map" to some degree? Yes. I agree with that.
I went to several Olympic events in Atlanta and had the time of my life. I'm not sure what the "problems" (perceived or otherwise) actually were, but they didn't touch 99% of the participants or the tv audience. There are some whiny Europeans that wanted their way and didn't get it - that's where the "worst in modern memory" originated. I'm not sure what happened to you, but I had a great time as did everyone else I have talked to about it.

The Olympics definitely put Atlanta on the international map...not just to some degree!
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  #1859  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2010, 3:33 AM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
Regal Atlantic Station will add an IMAX Theatre by December.



More IMAX for Atlanta

I wonder if this is an expansion or if they're maybe just taking a couple of the existing theaters and remodeling?

This is actually one of my fav. theaters, it's one of the better places to catch a double or triple feature on a single ticket, and they even put the 3D glass recycling bins where no one can see you fish one out if you need it.
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  #1860  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2010, 12:36 AM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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I wonder if this is an expansion or if they're maybe just taking a couple of the existing theaters and remodeling?

This is actually one of my fav. theaters, it's one of the better places to catch a double or triple feature on a single ticket, and they even put the 3D glass recycling bins where no one can see you fish one out if you need it.
My understanding is that they're just taking one theater and making it IMAX.
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