Community Development - Blatchford

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Links to articles would be nice.

It was on the CTV Edmonton News on Wednesday night:
http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=EdmontonHome

The end of the story points out that the city might just wait out some of the leases, I don't think they will do that because it opens the door to a future council reversing the decision. I suspect they will pay almost anything to get the remaining tenants out of YXD so they can start ripping up concrete.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Air Mikisew is looking at a landing strip at Enoch after runway closes.

I don't see that happening, Chief Harry Sharphead is a "back to the land" kind of guy and critical of the development on the reserve under the previous band administration. But should a new airport be built it would be nice if it were outside of Edmonton Airports jurisdiction.

[feepa]

I believe it is time to shut down the Edmonton City Center for good, once and for all. It’s a issue that keeps roaring its head every few years. and one that has kept Edmonton behind for many years now. It’s time to find a better use for this land. Keeping it open only keeps open the discussion about what to do with the land it occupies. It use as an airport doesn’t serve very well, with its small runways, and lack of any available room to expand. It impacts our economic growth in several areas, and stunts our downtown, and I’m not just talking about the maximum height of our buildings either, although this is a valid concern as well. Our decision 15 years ago to move all scheduled air services to the Edmonton International Airport (a decision that was voted on by the electorate in one of the highest % of voter’s turnout in modern Edmonton history) was the property decision to make. The time of the city center airport has come and gone. It’s no longer able to serve its purpose as a major national or even provincial airport, and if it did, it would only go against all the progress we’ve made at the International Airport years ago.
The City Center Airport and its approach overlay and associated bylaws and transportation regulations has dampened or caused many proposals to come out shorter and /or bulker from original design. To make up for the imposed height restriction, you see buildings come out with smaller lobbies and with that come lack of options and feature found in other cities taller buildings. There’s less room for amenities or street retail and other such goodies found on the main level. It also has made the top of our skyline very boxy, as developers will develop right up to the limit, and any roof element takes away from their restricted profit line. Since there are no roof elements, all you see on top is exposed elevator shafts and HVAC systems,
Another effect of these laws and guidelines is that buildings are limited to 500’ in the very CDB, but this restriction become much more restricted closer to the approaches, which in some areas, including over Oliver (the high-rise neighbourhood west of the downtown) which limits residential buildings to about 12-18 floors. This is why you see a lot of ‘stubbies’ to the west of downtown, and buildings then start to get taller again once you are out of the approach overlay
The Edmonton International is at a good location now. If you go back 30-40-50 years ago, it was a ways out of Edmonton. Edmonton was a much smaller city then, but our leaders back then saw that the city center airport was surrounded by development and a bigger airport would soon be needed. They envisioned a large International airport with lots of room to expand and grow, and one that wouldn’t be impacted by the growth of the city that is growing rapidly. The International Airport is not so far anymore. The southern limits of growth in this city are only a few kilometers away from the airport, and the population has more than doubled in size since then. With immense growth in the city and especially the southern end, and the development of the Anthony Henday Ring Road/QEII connection, I would argue that the International is now suitably located well. I'd bet that you can get to the International Airport quicker from all ends of the city then you could the city center airport. Look at a recent map of Edmonton. You can get to it easily through the freeway and highway system in Edmonton and Edmonton is making improvements all the time to the access between the International Airport and Downtown Edmonton. Items such as 23rd Avenue interchange, and future projects such as the realignment of the Walterdale Bridge will only bode well for transportation to downtown and the airport.
The medevac issue is really just a red herring. Most of those flights are non-critical, and more than half of them now already go through the international airport. Regional critical flights are air-lifted by STARS air ambulance directly to the trauma centers, and those coming from further that the reach of the helicopter can meet with an ambulance or helicopter at the airport. STARS air ambulance and Alberta Health Services have both also stated that they have transition plans to work out of YEG solely, and see no major issues. (Reference city of Edmonton website in the City Center Airport redevelopment section).

It's important to remember in this discussion that Edmonton doesn't have the capacity to support two major airports, and this is what Envision Edmonton wants. They want to restore the airport to its former self. Its former self was a well storied life that brought Edmonton into a modern era. It was an airport that served its purpose well, but its purpose has run out. It requires significant money to keep up to date, and its money that is not receiving from its users, and never will be able to. It will never be able to because the citizens of this city decided that we should have all of our scheduled air services at the international airport back in 1995. We decided this because we wanted better air services (more flights, and more locations to fly to); the city center airport wasn't able to provide this. This decision to consolidate services at the international airport is final in my mind, and one we should stick with.
We can remember its history through museums and collections, photographs, and stories. We can honour our aviation history by embracing our future with the Edmonton International Airport

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It was on the CTV Edmonton News on Wednesday night:
http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=EdmontonHome

The end of the story points out that the city might just wait out some of the leases, I don't think they will do that because it opens the door to a future council reversing the decision. I suspect they will pay almost anything to get the remaining tenants out of YXD so they can start ripping up concrete.

I hope that council does do this! All-for-it.

But your taking things out of context anyways. That 45 Million at least...

Last year, an internal memo by Edmonton Airports projected the cost at approximately $45 million with another $25 million going to decommissioning land.
Edmonton Airports now says the figure was just an early estimate. But some city councillors are concerned that no one seems to know what the final cost of closing the airport will be.

So really, that 45 M is just a ball park figure. Nobody really knows... It will take nearly 45 Million dollars just to upkeep the airport for the next 5-10 years. Rather see that money go towards buying out leases. Will save us $$$ in the long run.

[Policy Wonk]

It isn't out of context at all, they don't have a clue what the number will be - all they know is it will be enormous.

The question is, what cost is the city of Edmonton prepared to pay just to get to an empty lot, from which there are no guarantees or even a plan from which an actual cost-benefit analysis can be made.

The service that remained at YXD was of absolutely no determent to YEG who owes its ascendancy not to consolidation but WestJet. While the service that has been lost such as Peace Air and Quikair has not been duplicated at YEG as it was simply impractical there. I am sure Stars will love YEG, it will be a financial windfall for them flying patients from YEG who otherwise would have been transported a short distance by ambulance. They have a new helicopter to pay for.

All I see here is a real estate hustle,

[feepa]

All I see is a wish to bring back scheduled service at yxd. Remember it was caterina a pro muni supporter who brought us to this current point. Most people were quite happy to keep the status quo but then caterina had to start the scheduled services debate back.

[Policy Wonk]

Naturally proponents want to see scheduled service back at YXD, it was convenient, especially for regional travel. For us when the service ended most of our discretionary travel to Edmonton ended. Too much time wasted on airline check-in rules, security on both ends and the expensive and lengthy taxi trip from YEG to downtown Edmonton. Which is $50 if the taxi driver doesn't try to scam you, which is about half the time.

Quikair would hold the plane propellers spinning if they saw somebody pull into the parking lot. For regional travel nothing will ever match what YXD offered even in its later years. This service wasn't detrimental to anybody and contrary to the Edmonton Airports propaganda these Quikair and Peace Air passengers were not connecting to international flights and depriving YEG of new exotic destinations.

And before somebody says HSR, given Edmonton Airports found tiny turboprops terrifying do you think for a second they and by extension the City of Edmonton would tolerate HSR to Calgary and passengers potentially catching flights out of YYC? Potentially depriving YEG of service they would never attract in the first place.

[feepa]

somehow all those check-ins wouldn't apply if we re-opened the city center airport? Increase traffic there will have increased security.
Really, the only reason you want to keep it open is so you can travel quick to Edmonton, and then quickly fly back out?

Well, I'd like the same option to be available in Calgary then. Say goodbye to mount royal, bankview part of beltline and richmond, and hello to the Calgary city center airport

Calgary's airport is just about as far out as the international. You still have to deal with all the checkins and security there.

There's no way that city center airport can be reopened with out added security, and all the stuff you complain about. Welcome to this century. You're living in the past.

If you want a city center airport in Edmonton for ease of access from Calgary, how about you start lobbying Calgary City Council for a Calgary City Center airport so we can have ease of access to downtown Calgary -- for those wonderful regional travellers you are clamouring on about.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by feepa

Calgary's airport is just about as far out as the international. You still have to deal with all the checkins and security there.

As the crow flies:

YEG's terminal is about 25km from downtown Edmonton. About 10km from the nearest residential development that could be considered part of the Edmonton metro area.

YYC's terminal is about 10km from downtown Calgary. About 3km from the nearest residential development.

I don't dispute the rest of what you've said, but Leduc International is much further away from Edmonton than YYC is from Calgary.

Oddly enough, when I used to fly through the muni there was little to no security. It was like a bus depot basically. When Peace Air got moved to YEG we suddenly had to deal with ridiculous security (actually de-boarding a plane, walking all the way through and out of the secured area, back through security, and then back onto the very same plane). I always thought it was stupid, but the old arrangement was a joke too: any idiot could have taken a bomb or guns with him from Peace River, and landed in the post-security area at YYC. And then passed them on to any other passenger boarding any plane going anywhere in Canada or internationally (likely couldn't get to the US side).

[Coldrsx]

While the above is true, I can make it from my downtown condo to the airport in 30mins off peak and 45 in traffic, perfectly acceptable.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

While the above is true, I can make it from my downtown condo to the airport in 30mins off peak and 45 in traffic, perfectly acceptable.

Oh sure, after driving the route a few times I don't think it's as bad as it looks on paper. I just needed to clarify for folks who may not ever take out a map and ruler. It's not "in the city" like Calgary's or Winnipeg's is, but it's nowhere near as bad as Toronto (which is how some make it out to be).

Incidentally, I can make it from YYC to my house on the complete opposite side of the city in 15 minutes, but that's because of a newly-built freeway.

I didn't realize until recently, but there's a much closer (but still outside the city) airport just north of Edmonton. Why didn't the powers-that-be choose that location way back when? Seems more logical than Leduc.

[bulliver]

^ Nameo is a military base...

[vid]

Have YEG and CFB Nameo switch places! How hard can it be?

[bulliver]

^ Um, all the specialized military buildings/equipment notwithstanding, there's still the matter of all the on-base housing to contend with. To save a 15 minute drive on a freeway? Pretty difficult I'd say:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=fi...27702&t=h&z=16

[feepa]

Edmontons CBd to international distance is on about with many other major cities world wide
It's truly a red herring used by those with vested interest in yxd

[Coldrsx]

Although it would be nice to see some big metal flying around the city more.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by feepa

somehow all those check-ins wouldn't apply if we re-opened the city center airport? Increase traffic there will have increased security.

The only service anyone has proposed restoring is the FBO based 19-seat and under variety. Outside of CATSA's jurisdiction.

Really, the only reason you want to keep it open is so you can travel quick to Edmonton, and then quickly fly back out?

Me and tens of thousands of others.

Well, I'd like the same option to be available in Calgary then. Say goodbye to mount royal, bankview part of beltline and richmond, and hello to the Calgary city center airport

somewhere just east of McLeod Trail would be nice.

Calgary's airport is just about as far out as the international. You still have to deal with all the checkins and security there.

No it isn't... and the service to YXD was not from the terminal but outlying FBO's. Quikair used a private "terminal" behind the Deerfoot Wal-Mart.

[feepa]

isn't there an FBO you can fly in and out of at the international? I'm pretty sure my friends that work up north use this.

There's other solutions besides keeping city center airport open.

edit: seems there is... why can't you use this for your 19 seat planes? http://www.executiveflightcentre.com...n_sub.asp?id=2

[Policy Wonk]

So what if there is, your still in Leduc. The appeal of YXD is that it is in Edmonton and not Leduc... but you already knew that.

The fixed-rate taxi fares also only apply to the main terminal, so your in for a prison rape taxi fare arriving at an FBO.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by bulliver

^ Nameo is a military base...

Ah neat, I didn't realize that, thanks!

I gotta agree with an earlier comment - it's almost eerie to never see a plane flying low over Edmonton. You just get used to it in most cities. That being said, it's a bit of a plus in my books. I enjoy planes but in a busy city the noise can get very irritating after a while. It's why I couldn't stand living in Calgary's NE. We're below a flight path where I am but the planes are relatively high, and it still bothers me some days.