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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 6:43 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Considering the number of people moving here, Vancouver is definitely not building enough, contrary to what most may want to believe.

If Vancouver is building enough residential units, Surrey, Burnaby, New West, Richmond, Coquitlam and other outlying municipalities will never ever experience the boom they are experiencing right now.
You sure about that?

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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 6:49 PM
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You sure about that?

Do you know where one could find the breakdown by sub-region or municipality?
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 7:38 PM
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Do you know where one could find the breakdown by sub-region or municipality?
No sorry, but the website/blog might have more detail. I think it comes from REBGV stats in part.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 9:46 PM
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You sure about that?

Is it just me or does it look like the amount of housing being constructed hasn’t changed dramatically but the time to complete it has greatly increased?
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 10:07 PM
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Something seems wrong with that graph. Housing starts and completions have barely moved but U/C is off the charts. Could be a factor of construction duration, but that's a huge spike for something like that.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 10:21 PM
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No sorry, but the website/blog might have more detail. I think it comes from REBGV stats in part.
Those look like CMHC data. You can see a breakdown of housing starts by municipality from 2007 to 2017 in the table on page 19 of the Metro Vancouver Housing Data Book. You can get completions data from 2008 to 2017 in a table on page 31. The Data Book doesn't have the annual under construction numbers - if you wanted to find those you'd have to download 'Housing Now' from the CMHC website for Greater Vancouver for every year.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2018, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Something seems wrong with that graph. Housing starts and completions have barely moved but U/C is off the charts. Could be a factor of construction duration, but that's a huge spike for something like that.
That's also CMHC data, and it has shown the number under construction climbing steeply in the past few years. There are a couple of factors that probably explain it. One is that CMHC don't count what happens below ground as construction - it's only when a project meets 'at grade' that it becomes a Housing Start. As we've seen a lot of taller towers under construction, especially in suburban municipalities like Burnaby and Surrey, their construction time seems much longer than when shorter towers were the norm.

And, as we can see by looking at the time projects like Brentwood or Civic Centre have taken to complete, from when they meet grade, those timelines have stretched a lot in recent years as well. Partly that the size of the structures, and partly the difficulties builders have faced in getting finishing trades to move a project to completion. Even lower height projects on places like Richmond are taking longer, in part because they're often larger (more units in total) than projects were a few years ago. Really complex buildings like Vancouver House also take longer. It looks like that building reached grade in summer 2016, and they're not going to complete until next spring, or later, so that's around a 3-year build time.

edit - don't forget too that this includes single family dwellings - I think they represented a greater proportion of what was being built. and were being built more quickly 10 years ago - these days there are more apartment buildings, that take longer.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2019, 12:50 AM
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Another Seattle article:

Amid building boom, 1 in 10 Seattle apartments are empty, and rents are dropping
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-are-dropping/
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 1:17 AM
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An almost laboratory study in stark contrasts:


Seattle built 17,450 rental homes in 1 year, while Vancouver only counted 1,364

Jan 10 2020, 2:21 pm


An academic at Simon Fraser University (SFU) is urging officials with the City of Vancouver to pick up the pace in building purpose-built rental homes, and look to the region’s southern neighbours for inspiration.

In a recent blog post on the website of Goodman Commercial, SFU finance professor Andrey Pavlov with the Beedie School of Business compares Seattle and Vancouver’s achievements with building new purpose-built rental housing.

In 2018, there were 17,450 new rental units in Seattle, compared to just 1,364 new rental units by Vancouver over the same year. With the flood in new supply, landlords are now competing fiercely for tenants, with many listings offering up to months of free rent and gift cards of up to $2,000.

While Seattle is larger than Vancouver, it is not 13 times bigger — it comes down to municipal policy.

The City of Seattle has a population of about 745,000 over a land area of 368 sq. km, within a regional population of 3.94 million and a land area of 21,202 sq. km. In contrast, the City of Vancouver has about 650,000 residents on a land area of 115 sq. km, within a regional population of 2.5 million and 2,900 sq. km.

Pavlov describes Seattle’s surge in new rental housing as the “normal and expected free market response to rising demand,” with the city increasingly facing housing pressures from the rapid growth of its tech industry.

“So instead of asking how Seattle has built so much rental housing, the Mayor should be asking what we have done in Vancouver to prevent the same outcome,” he wrote.

“It’s not rocket science. When the demand for apples goes up, normal people plant more trees. It takes a few years, but sooner or later there’s enough apples to meet the higher demand. Perhaps even enough to ship some to China and add capital to the local orchard. But when the demand for housing, especially rental housing, in Vancouver increases, we don’t build more. On the contrary, we do everything we can to sabotage new supply.”

He lists rent control, rental-only zoning used to downzone, and the 12-year-old moratorium on the demolition of rental buildings for the city’s slow growth with building new rentals.

He cited a recent paper in American Economic Review that zeroed in on San Francisco’s housing issues and the impact of rent control: “In the long run, landlords’ substitution toward owner-occupied and newly constructed rental housing not only lowered the supply of rental housing in the city, but also shifted the city’s housing supply toward less affordable types of housing that likely cater to the tastes of higher income individuals… Taking all of these points together, it appears rent control has actually contributed to the gentrification of San Francisco, the exact opposite of the policy’s intended goal.”

When it comes to the provincial government’s introduction of rental-only zoning powers for municipal governments, Pavlov asserts cities like Burnaby and New Westminster have used the new zoning tool for its opposite intended effect. Rental-only zoning was enacted on existing properties without the permission of the owners and without an appropriate density bonus.

“This has exactly the opposite effect of the intended goal — it turns rental housing into a toxic asset. Most investors like to keep their capital away from such assets. The companies which seek them out are called ‘vulture funds.’ As the name suggests, they do not make for good landlords,” he continued.

“Rental-only zoning, even just the possibility of it, not only expropriates from the current owners but also ensures that we will not get a rental building on any property that does not already have one. Why would anyone in their right mind risk such a severe down-zoning of their land?”

The possibility for an increase in rental supply is restricted by the inability to redevelop existing, ageing rental buildings due to a 12-year old moratorium on demolishing rental buildings cover over 95% of Vancouver, he adds.

Pavlov then sums up the resulting situation: “In other words, we can neither add new rental buildings nor redevelop existing ones.”

For acquired sites that are suitable for new market rental housing, applications face a years-long development review process, followed by hostility from some current Vancouver city councillors over the proposals.

“So you wait two, three, or more years for your development application to get reviewed, during which time you’re paying interest on the land purchase, property taxes, and even the so-called School Tax on the entire property. Sooner or later, usually much later, you get to city council for final approval. That’s when you get yet another insult. Your project gets questioned, and possibly denied, because market rents are too high,” he wrote.

“You read that right – we block new rental housing because we don’t have enough rental housing. This doesn’t just defy basic economics; it defies basic common sense.”

Source: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/seat...sing?auto=true
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
An almost laboratory study in stark contrasts
There are so many errors with that Pavlov piece, and the Daily Hive regurgitation of it that it's hard to know where to start.

The 17,450 rental apartments were completed in 2018 in The Seattle Metro area, not the City of Seattle. It's an area of 15,000 sq. km. with a population of 3.87 million. Metro Vancouver is only 2,882 sq. km. with 2.46 million people. In 2018 very few condos were developed in Seattle Metro.

The number of rentals quoted for Vancouver is for the City, not for Metro. The Metro area saw 6,275 rentals completed, but over 18,000 condos, so there was actually more development activity in Metro Vancouver than in Metro Seattle, even though it's a smaller region with a smaller population.

Maybe the professor of finance needs to take Statistics and Geography 101 before making any more comments.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post

The 17,450 rental apartments were completed in 2018 in The Seattle Metro area, not the City of Seattle...with a population of 3.87 million. The number of rentals quoted for Vancouver is for the City, not for Metro.
That still means Metro Seattle produced almost twice the amount of purpose rental units per capita than Metro Vancouver in 2018.

Vancouver is currently suffering from a 1% vancancy rate and a hardcore landlord's market.

Seattle, by contrast, has a vacancy rate of 10.5% within the city, and 8.6% across the metro. As the article points out, the supply of rental is so abundant that "landlords are now competing fiercely for tenants, with many listings offering up to months of free rent and gift cards of up to $2,000."
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 8:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
The number of rentals quoted for Vancouver is for the City, not for Metro. The Metro area saw 6,275 rentals completed, but over 18,000 condos, so there was actually more development activity in Metro Vancouver than in Metro Seattle, even though it's a smaller region with a smaller population.
I'm guessing that condos were also built in Metro Seattle during this period as well.

What are the overall housing numbers for both markets?
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld View Post
I'm guessing that condos were also built in Metro Seattle during this period as well.

What are the overall housing numbers for both markets?
What a great question. Maybe you could let us know the exact numbers, but Metro Seattle is proportionally well below Metro Vancouver

The most recent HUD Briefing paper for the Seattle - Bellevue - Everett area says there was demand for 31,900 new apartments, and 21,500 under construction, so there's more demand for rental than is being built. For ownership units there was demand for 27,900 units, but only 5,275 under construction. The condo market in Washington has ben dead in the water for several years, which is partly why the development industry has been building apartments. The llegal iabilities now faced by condo developers in the state have made it a fairly unattractive proposition.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
That still means Metro Seattle produced almost twice the amount of purpose rental units per capita than Metro Vancouver in 2018.

Vancouver is currently suffering from a 1% vancancy rate and a hardcore landlord's market.

Seattle, by contrast, has a vacancy rate of 10.5% within the city, and 8.6% across the metro. As the article points out, the supply of rental is so abundant that "landlords are now competing fiercely for tenants, with many listings offering up to months of free rent and gift cards of up to $2,000."
So where are all the rental buildings outside Vancouver? 6,275 rental completions in Metro Vancouver, with 3,500 in Vancouver, and only 112 in Richmond. Under 700 in Surrey, and less than 500 in Burnaby?
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
What a great question. Maybe you could let us know the exact numbers, but Metro Seattle is proportionally well below Metro Vancouver

The most recent HUD Briefing paper for the Seattle - Bellevue - Everett area says there was demand for 31,900 new apartments, and 21,500 under construction, so there's more demand for rental than is being built. For ownership units there was demand for 27,900 units, but only 5,275 under construction. The condo market in Washington has ben dead in the water for several years, which is partly why the development industry has been building apartments. The llegal iabilities now faced by condo developers in the state have made it a fairly unattractive proposition.
It seems from what you said that the overall number of units is about the same despite Vancouver's smaller size.

Can you share your sources?
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
That still means Metro Seattle produced almost twice the amount of purpose rental units per capita than Metro Vancouver in 2018.

Vancouver is currently suffering from a 1% vancancy rate and a hardcore landlord's market.

Seattle, by contrast, has a vacancy rate of 10.5% within the city, and 8.6% across the metro. As the article points out, the supply of rental is so abundant that "landlords are now competing fiercely for tenants, with many listings offering up to months of free rent and gift cards of up to $2,000."
Resources in Vancouver are sucked into condos, catering to all the would-be amateur landlords and speculators. Wasn't there also an earlier discussion of this that mentioned Seattle condo developers are held to higher levels of accountability for construction than here as well?

I'd be perfectly fine with city councils zoning all multifamily as rental but none of them have the political will to do it.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2020, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld View Post
It seems from what you said that the overall number of units is about the same despite Vancouver's smaller size.

Can you share your sources?
You can download the Metro Vancouver Housing Data Book, which has total and rental completions annually to 2018. You can download the HUD Seattle etc data on construction. Here's a good article explaing why 0 (zero) condos were completed in 2016 in Seattle, and under 10% of completitions in Downtown Seattle to 2020 were expected to be condos, with over 90% apartments.

The HUD report is for King and Snohomish Counties, with a population over 3 million. There were 5,275 multi family units for sale under construction in the entire region and 21,500 apartments. If you look on the CMHC website for construction data at the same date, you'll see nearly 9,000 rentals and over 27,000 condos were under construction. Those numbers are higher at the end of 2019.
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Last edited by Changing City; Jan 12, 2020 at 1:00 AM.
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