The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I still don't see this as broadly scaleable. We're talking about a solution that addresses the EVs of one brand, held by a small number of drivers. What's the solution for when half the car owners in your area have EVs?

The gas station comparison isn't quite as equivalent. One can easily fill up as soon as they leave downtown Vancouver.

You're arguing a theoretical problem we are nowhere near having.

The gas station thing is the same for public chargers. Fast charging is everywhere around the region.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Assuming it's scalable, $2000-3000 isn't an astronomical sum of money to install per unit. Soon enough there are going to be enough people that would be willing to pay that premium to have a condo with that specification. And would it even be that much to install en masse? AFAIK, with my rudimentary knowledge of electrical, isn't it just a breaker, the wiring, a wall unit and labour?

Although is there a mechanism for securing it from someone stealing your juice?

There are different options for sharing and routing. It's mostly electrician labour, parts are cheap. You run into limits for how many dedicated circuits are possible in a building's electrical vault.

But generally speaking you're right. A few grand is nothing and that value will go directly to your resale on the condo itself.

Again, electricity is well understood and the solutions are flexible.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There are different options for sharing and routing. It's mostly electrician labour, parts are cheap. You run into limits for how many dedicated circuits are possible in a building's electrical vault.

But generally speaking you're right. A few grand is nothing and that value will go directly to your resale on the condo itself.

Again, electricity is well understood and the solutions are flexible.

Do the charging stations have some form of security? As you said before, pricing seems more difficult than the actual infrastructure.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Do the charging stations have some form of security? As you said before, pricing seems more difficult than the actual infrastructure.

You can get complicated fob/app security access and billing, but that's expensive, especially compared to the price of electricity.

Out building went with an old school key system and a flat rate for usage.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Assuming it's scalable, $2000-3000 isn't an astronomical sum of money to install per unit.

I would have thought so too before sitting through discussions at a condo AGM. Keep in mind that most people who buy condos or rent apartments are people who don't have the capital/income to afford a house. So they are likely to be limited in how much they are willing to take on. This is where government grants could have made a real difference. Instead we cut cheques to people who were already committed to buying EVs.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Soon enough there are going to be enough people that would be willing to pay that premium to have a condo with that specification. And would it even be that much to install en masse? AFAIK, with my rudimentary knowledge of electrical, isn't it just a breaker, the wiring, a wall unit and labour?

< $1k is the likely cost per parking spot when installed en masse for an underground garage for a NEMA 1-15. Probably in the $2k range for NEMA 14-50 at each spot.
Wiring up a single spot without a broader project could be $20k. There's obviously big differences between wiring up outdoor spots and underground spots and cost differences depending on how meters need to be installed. Also, once you start wiring up a lot of spots, power into the building/lot needs to be looked at. All that adds up. Anybody who think I'm making this up should actually talk to an engineer. I have had the discussion with a few.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Although is there a mechanism for securing it from someone stealing your juice?

For common use charger, you can have chargers that have tap cards with accounts. For individual chargers, you can lockbox the outlet or the charging handle.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You're arguing a theoretical problem we are nowhere near having.

In any scenario where EV uptake is even moderate, my hypothetical becomes real very fast. How would you handle half your neighbours converting to EV over the next 5 years? Has that been discussed in your condo?

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The gas station thing is the same for public chargers. Fast charging is everywhere around the region.

BC is not most of Canada. This is not typical everywhere. Which is why I said spending on infrastructure would have been better that subsidizing EV purchases.

More to the point a big part of the EV sales pitch is "No more trips to the gas station!" And "Electrons are cheaper than gas." These arguments are neutered if condo dwellers have to go charge at above residential rates while doing groceries or at work.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In any scenario where EV uptake is even moderate, my hypothetical becomes real very fast. How would you handle half your neighbours converting to EV over the next 5 years? Has that been discussed in your condo?

We have a few scenarios in mind. Half over 5 years is a pipe dream. Here's something interesting for you though, we currently have 6 EVs in the building, I think. Only 3 of us actually participate in the shared charger program. The rest are charging elsewhere. Even if they use 120V plugs elsewhere in the parkade they need to pay, so they aren't even doing that. Perhaps work, or public charging.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

BC is not most of Canada. This is not typical everywhere. Which is why I said spending on infrastructure would have been better that subsidizing EV purchases.

More to the point a big part of the EV sales pitch is "No more trips to the gas station!" And "Electrons are cheaper than gas." These arguments are neutered if condo dwellers have to go charge at above residential rates while doing groceries or at work.

The government does have pretty big charging rollouts, both federally and provincially, and via our provincial electricity utility here in BC. I agree, more would be great, but there are hardly massive lineups at them today. The infrastructure is ahead of the requirement IMO.

The vast majority of people who are complaining that there is no solution for condos, are not actually those living with the scenario, only fearmongering or overly paranoid about what it actually takes to keep an EV running.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

We have a few scenarios in mind. Half over 5 years is a pipe dream.

Alright. Let's say half in a decade. What's the plan then? The timeline is far less relevant than the numbers.

Also, curious that you have so much faith in EVs at the macro level but can't see any of this at the micro level. I actually think half my neighbours driving EVs in a decade is realistic. But very much dependent on the infrastructure provided.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The vast majority of people who are complaining that there is no solution for condos, are not actually those living with the scenario, only fearmongering or overly paranoid about what it actually takes to keep an EV running.

As someone living with the scenario, I assure you it's not "fearmongering". And given that we still have condos being built without chargers and that most resale condos don't have them, the problem is very real. At least here in Ontario. At the moment, I'd say condo living and EV ownership are at best a compromise. And it's why the vast majority of EV buyers are still house dwellers.

Most curiously the new building code requires all home garages to be prewired for EVs. No such requirement for condo parking.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would have thought so too before sitting through discussions at a condo AGM. Keep in mind that most people who buy condos or rent apartments are people who don't have the capital/income to afford a house. So they are likely to be limited in how much they are willing to take on. This is where government grants could have made a real difference. Instead we cut cheques to people who were already committed to buying EVs.

< $1k is the likely cost per parking spot when installed en masse for an underground garage for a NEMA 1-15. Probably in the $2k range for NEMA 14-50 at each spot.
Wiring up a single spot without a broader project could be $20k. There's obviously big differences between wiring up outdoor spots and underground spots and cost differences depending on how meters need to be installed. Also, once you start wiring up a lot of spots, power into the building/lot needs to be looked at. All that adds up. Anybody who think I'm making this up should actually talk to an engineer. I have had the discussion with a few.

I don't think you're making this up. It's an interesting conversation. The costs do seem high to me - my roommate installed a 220V 50A charger for a power tool in our garage, the biggest cost was the breaker I think and it looked simple enough that I'd be confident doing it. I appreciate costs in condos go through the roof as a matter of course for reasons though.

And yeah, if a new breaker box or power line to the building is needed, that will definitely add to the cost.

Even with those high costs though, it really is not that much. As you say, the government could subsidise this. If they contributed 50% and pitched in $100M that's 100,000 chargers we could get installed. I'm not much of a fan of government picking winners and prefer we just left most things to the market (with a carbon tax), but infrastructure is one area where governments are best placed to make investment.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For common use charger, you can have chargers that have tap cards with accounts. For individual chargers, you can lockbox the outlet or the charging handle.

This is what I figured would be needed. It seems a trivially easy problem to solve regardless, just having a PIN or card access to the charger.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alright. Let's say half in a decade. What's the plan then? The timeline is far less relevant than the numbers.

Also, curious that you have so much faith in EVs at the macro level but can't see any of this at the micro level. I actually think half my neighbours driving EVs in a decade is realistic. But very much dependent on the infrastructure provided.

The plan will be more distributed charging within the building. Not chargers in every stall, though we may consider funding options for people who want to pay more.

Why I can't see this at a micro level? I'm living it. The wholesale change to EVs won't happen overnight, we all know that. Furthermore, we could be in a future of shared autonomous EVs in 10-20 years. So why spend so much time now worrying about dedicated 50A circuits that will never be needed?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Most curiously the new building code requires all home garages to be prewired for EVs. No such requirement for condo parking.

Pre-wiring for condos has been in the building code here for years. It started back around 2014 and was re-vamped recently.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I don't think you're making this up. It's an interesting conversation. The costs do seem high to me - my roommate installed a 220V 50A charger for a power tool in our garage, the biggest cost was the breaker I think and it looked simple enough that I'd be confident doing it. I appreciate costs in condos go through the roof as a matter of course for reasons though.

And yeah, if a new breaker box or power line to the building is needed, that will definitely add to the cost.

Even with those high costs though, it really is not that much. As you say, the government could subsidise this. If they contributed 50% and pitched in $100M that's 100,000 chargers we could get installed. I'm not much of a fan of government picking winners and prefer we just left most things to the market (with a carbon tax), but infrastructure is one area where governments are best placed to make investment.

I'd be happy with a program where government just covered the utilities' costs to get power and appropriate breakers and panels into a building. Leave the wiring cost to residents. Do that and $100M could deliver a quarter million spots.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Pre-wiring for condos has been in the building code here for years. It started back around 2014 and was re-vamped recently.

Not seeing it here in Ontario.

I think you're projecting the ease of getting all this done in BC onto the rest of the country. Heck, I don't think attitudes of condo dwellers in downtown Vancouver would even match those of condo dwellers in other parts of BC.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd be happy with a program where government just covered the utilities' costs to get power and appropriate breakers and panels into a building. Leave the wiring cost to residents. Do that and $100M could deliver a quarter million spots.

Fair enough, that would make sense. The hardest pill to swallow is going to be that large initial cost.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not seeing it here in Ontario.

I think you're projecting the ease of getting all this done in BC onto the rest of the country. Heck, I don't think attitudes of condo dwellers in downtown Vancouver would even match those of condo dwellers in other parts of BC.

Perhaps, but when EVs get cheaper and demand increases, there will be huge pressure on condo boards (and builders) to deal with this stuff. I just can't get myself that worried about it. We've been wiring stuff up for a long time.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Fair enough, that would make sense. The hardest pill to swallow is going to be that large initial cost.

Metering is also a big issue. In most condos the idea of including the cost of the charger operation in condo fees is seen as paying for your neighbours gas. But individual metering drives up setup costs substantially. There's more buildings like Warren's. But I see those as ad hoc solutions. Not anything scalable to the point where we can genuinely say that most gas car owners can easily switch.

In these discussions too, the age/enthusiasm gap is apparent. Twenty/thirtysomething Musk fan will accept a whole lot of inconvenience to make an EV work. My senior citizen neighbours? Not so much. So when I envision policy, I think of how to make it work for that latter group.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In these discussions too, the age/enthusiasm gap is apparent. Twenty/thirtysomething Musk fan will accept a whole lot of inconvenience to make an EV work. My senior citizen neighbours? Not so much. So when I envision policy, I think of how it work for that latter group.

Agreed. There's of course going to be an in between though, I can imagine my 60 something father being pretty open to an EV especially if there was some government scheme to help with the charger. Having senior citizens just continue to drive a 2L gas car for 5000km a year until the end of their days won't make a big difference. There's no need to envision everyone getting an EV right away, focusing on the easiest transition cases first will go a long way, and then starting to think about the harder cases will become easier.

[Truenorth00]

To be honest, I'm okay with the senior citizen driving their gas car occasionally. But, from a policy perspective, you can't achieve any sort of mass change without universality.

On a related but different note, there's a lot of focus on electric cars and transit when talking about climate change. Often lost in the mix is walkability. The highest quality of life and smallest footprint comes from never owning a car and never taking the bus. It's amazing to this day how shitty the new neighborhoods and subdivisions are in that regard. That is probably a hell of a bigger issue than enough EV charging. EVs will not solve sprawl and the health (obesity epidemic) or environmental (higher carbon footprint) problems that come with it. It's why, as much I love EVs, the arguments from EV fans do come across like greenwashing at times. There's a great TED talk on walkable cities below and in it the planner points out that you're twice as likely to be obese in a neighborhood with a low walkscore. An EV isn't fixing that. Nor will it give you a lower footprint than the apartment dweller in a walkable hood has.

• Video Link

[WarrenC12]

Density in general is key to address climate change. You can live a much healthier, happier life, all while using significantly less energy.

It's no wonder we've been migrating towards cities since civilization started. Suburbs are a short term mistake.

[WarrenC12]

More gas on the fire, so to speak...

https://ca.reuters.com/article/busin...rce=reddit.com

The shift to electric vehicles and other low-carbon technologies could disrupt crude oil demand on a similar scale to the coronavirus pandemic, Suncor Energy Inc’s (SU.TO) chief executive said on Monday.

[Truenorth00]

Suncor's CEO? Pfffft. What does that hippie know?

Funny the derision I get on here for the exact same concerns and ideas he had.

[accord1999]

If you go from the source article written by the CEO, you find:

For example, the carbon density of Canada’s bitumen reserves make it uniquely suited for advanced manufacturing and materials processes that could create billions of dollars in additional value. Foremost among these Bitumen Beyond Combustion opportunities is carbon fibre, a strong, lightweight material increasingly important for producing lighter vehicles (including EVs) and building materials that store rather than emit carbon in their fabrication. Asphaltene makes up 15 to 20% of bitumen and is the feedstock for making carbon fibres. If we can figure out how to do this affordably at scale, it has the potential to quadruple the revenue from Alberta’s current bitumen output. Alberta Innovates estimates the added economic potential of carbon fibre, activated carbon and asphalt binder alone could be in the range of $84 billion annually.

https://www.corporateknights.com/cha...tion-15909912/

Of course, the irony is the medium-term impact of COVID is likely to give a shift to oil as losses to depressed air and ship traffic is more than made up by the boom in car usage as transit gets crushed.