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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 2:34 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I got that one too, in the wee hours of the morning. Not sure what I might have been able to do in London Ontario, to thwart the kidnapping.
Let's be honest, if there was an Amber Alert that came through at 3am for a kid that was taken from 3 streets over, who is getting out of bed for that? If a kid was taken from London, they could be in Toronto or Windsor before an Amber Alert even went out.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Let's be honest, if there was an Amber Alert that came through at 3am for a kid that was taken from 3 streets over, who is getting out of bed for that? If a kid was taken from London, they could be in Toronto or Windsor before an Amber Alert even went out.
Correct, but AFAIK there is no way to send an Ambert Alert only to phones whose owners are out and about in the city, and not those who are asleep in bed.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Let's be honest, if there was an Amber Alert that came through at 3am for a kid that was taken from 3 streets over, who is getting out of bed for that? If a kid was taken from London, they could be in Toronto or Windsor before an Amber Alert even went out.
I think there is a difference. You might know the person and the car they drive, etc. You could potentially make a difference.

As for Thunder Bay, there is just no chance of having an impact one way or another. But waking up millions with that horrible klaxon is a most unwelcome intrusion. The sound sends your heart racing.

3 times a year might be reasonable. But I have received a dozen at least this year alone.

So yeah, people are going to shut off their phones/sound and that defeats the whole purpose of the Amber Alert. Can't they see that this is the logical outcome?

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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 6:06 PM
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Even for natural disasters the alert system is too broad. I got a tornado warning alert in the summer and when I checked the weather alert online, I saw that I was 40km beyond the edge of the square shown on the map. They should have only given it out to people inside that square.

With this, and amber alerts, it's clear the logic the system uses is "if there's the slightest chance this DEFCON 1 warning would help, send it out". This is counterproductive because it leads to alarm fatigue. To get people to keep taking them seriously, they need to be used very sparingly and only when absolutely necessary. Not all the time "just in case".

Here's an example: When the big earthquake in BC happens, the alert ready system will let people know about 3 minutes before it starts (the earliest possible). 3 minutes to get into shelter. If it happens at 3am, with the way the system is currently set up, everyone is just going to think "oh, another amber alert, fuck it I'll just check it in the morning". And then they'll die.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Even for natural disasters the alert system is too broad. I got a tornado warning alert in the summer and when I checked the weather alert online, I saw that I was 40km beyond the edge of the square shown on the map. They should have only given it out to people inside that square.

With this, and amber alerts, it's clear the logic the system uses is "if there's the slightest chance this DEFCON 1 warning would help, send it out". This is counterproductive because it leads to alarm fatigue. To get people to keep taking them seriously, they need to be used very sparingly and only when absolutely necessary. Not all the time "just in case".

Here's an example: When the big earthquake in BC happens, the alert ready system will let people know about 3 minutes before it starts (the earliest possible). 3 minutes to get into shelter. If it happens at 3am, with the way the system is currently set up, everyone is just going to think "oh, another amber alert, fuck it I'll just check it in the morning". And then they'll die.
I was back living temporarily in London during the first half of 2020 and we had a tornado warning for London-Middlesex-Oxford one night - and a tornado actually did hit outside Belmont. There was a warning on my phone, and I'm glad I heard it - but it was the same level of alarm that is used for Amber Alerts thousands of kilometres away.

Meanwhile there was absolutely no alert in Nova Scotia this past April when a gunman was terrorizing multiple communities and over 20 people were killed. That would have been a perfect use of the alert system, but the RCMP chose to post about it on Twitter, which many Nova Scotians do not use. Some Nova Scotians got information about the threat from US authorities before any domestic authorities.

I feel as though there have been fewer Amber Alerts this year than during 2018 and 2019, possibly because of the pandemic, but once things return to some sort of normal I wouldn't be surprised if abductions increase again. And it will be important that there is some distinction between the two types of events.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 3:19 AM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
When I still lived in Toronto I got an Amber Alert for an abduction in Thunder Bay. A lot of people in Southern Ontario were pissed about that one.
You motherfuckers are running away with children every fucking week and the ONE TIME it happens here, you get pissed off? Go fuck yourself!

Tuesday March 19, kids abducted in York. April 25, Peel. Both a day's drive away. May 14, Sudbury–15 hours away. July 11, York. July 25, Brantford. October 1, Niagara (NIAGARA!! That's a two day drive!) November 6, Toronto. November 27, annual test.

And then, the big one:

January 12, Pickering Nuclear Plant Meltdown! Ahh, simple times!

March 5 Toronto, March 27 Covid, April 4 Covid again, June 28, Niagara. September 28, doesn't even actually say what city! Then November 25, annual test again.

To answer Loco's quesiton:

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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
I don't remember any of the alerts being for anything in Northern Ontario.

We get them in Timmins and the Amber alerts will be for Niagara, GTA, Ottawa, Windsor, etc.. Does ALL of Ontario get the same alerts every time there is one in the province?!? Do people in Thunder Bay and Kenora get the same ones? Do they get them in Moosonee and Moose Factory?
Yes, we absolutely fucking do. Every. Single. One.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Even for natural disasters the alert system is too broad. I got a tornado warning alert in the summer and when I checked the weather alert online, I saw that I was 40km beyond the edge of the square shown on the map. They should have only given it out to people inside that square.
The only time I got a tornado warning here, it was radio only, the tornado was in Gull Bay. That's nearly 200km away.

Anyway as far as I know, Kenora does not get alerts from Manitoba, so if they are suspected to be heading east, Winnipeg police or RCMP have to alert Ontario's emergency response about the situation and maybe they'll send an alert.

The weather alerts do seem to be more specific, I think the reason we get so many province-wide amber alerts is because the amber alert reporting system treats Ontario as a single entity instead of splitting it into zones. You're still going to get lots of them in the GTA, though. People there just seem to kidnap their own children a lot. That amber alert from Thunder Bay that Torontonians love to complain about was, as far as I recall, the first time a child was kidnapped here in the digital era. (It was very common in the 70s though, I know several people in their 40s to 60s who were kidnapped as children, almost always by their father or uncle).
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 6:19 AM
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So if I ever want to abduct a child in Ontario, all I have to do is abduct it in Kenora and immediately head west, while having a laugh thinking about the people in Cornwall and Ottawa who'll get brutally woken up at 3 am by the Imminent Nuclear Armageddon Alarm.
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 6:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
So if I ever want to abduct a child in Ontario, all I have to do is abduct it in Kenora and immediately head west, while having a laugh thinking about the people in Cornwall and Ottawa who'll get brutally woken up at 3 am by the Imminent Nuclear Armageddon Alarm.
Or if you're in Timmins, drive an hour and a half East and you'll be where nobody will know about it but millions of cell phones in Ontario will be going crazy.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 7:46 AM
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move to where theres no cell service problem solved
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 12:03 PM
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I've no idea the threshold here for using them, but I only recall ever seeing national tests. Once I thought it was a provincial test (we got a warning PSA from the government that it was coming), but later media coverage noted it was part of a national test.

The wording has changed to make that clear. The one sent out on the day this thread was posted noted it was part of a national test and issued by the province's Department of Justice.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 5:02 PM
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Ah yes, the blaring, evil little alarm....that thing is interesting. I'm not very good with phone's, so i usually mute my cell phone nowadays, but when they were first testing out the alarm, I heard that awful noise and was quite...shocked. I think by muting my phone for the last two or so years, I've barely noticed or remembered these alerts, although I know they occur whenever I see it on my cell phone.

I agree, they really should be more distance based than a broad provincial system for more localized crimes and situations.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
Or if you're in Timmins, drive an hour and a half East and you'll be where nobody will know about it but millions of cell phones in Ontario will be going crazy.
I'd be curious if Quebec would send out an alert if there was an abduction in Ottawa.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I'd be curious if Quebec would send out an alert if there was an abduction in Ottawa.
Depends on whether the person abducted is English or French...….
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I think there is a difference. You might know the person and the car they drive, etc. You could potentially make a difference.

As for Thunder Bay, there is just no chance of having an impact one way or another. But waking up millions with that horrible klaxon is a most unwelcome intrusion. The sound sends your heart racing.

3 times a year might be reasonable. But I have received a dozen at least this year alone
.

So yeah, people are going to shut off their phones/sound and that defeats the whole purpose of the Amber Alert. Can't they see that this is the logical outcome?

I don't understand this. How do you put a limit on something even based on events that occur at random?
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 6:42 PM
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the point is extremely simple: if you raise the alarm too many times, eventually people start ignoring the alarm.

if you want to fixate on some arbitrary quantity ("3" is what I put just to illustrate) then you are not paying attention (on purpose?) to what I am trying to say
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Last edited by MolsonExport; Nov 27, 2020 at 7:01 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 7:26 PM
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You're right, I don't understand. I get the fatigue concept but I'm fixated on the suggestion that you can quantify random events.

0 kids abducted, 0 alarms
1 kid abducted, 1 alarm
n kids abducted, n alarms

Obviously it'll be more than that given tests and it's usage for other things, also mostly random.

You're looking for a reduction in these alarms. Cool. What's your criteria for doing so?
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 7:57 PM
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Now you just made me realize that I paid $200 to have my HVAC system gas input analyzed because I thought it was the carbon monitoring going off. It was just the damn phone alert.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
You're right, I don't understand. I get the fatigue concept but I'm fixated on the suggestion that you can quantify random events.

0 kids abducted, 0 alarms
1 kid abducted, 1 alarm
n kids abducted, n alarms

Obviously it'll be more than that given tests and it's usage for other things, also mostly random.

You're looking for a reduction in these alarms. Cool. What's your criteria for doing so?
trolling for a magic number when there is none?

cool

Why not just have everything under the sun applied as an alarm-worthy instance?

You want me to quantify a stochastic process? Really?
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
You're right, I don't understand. I get the fatigue concept but I'm fixated on the suggestion that you can quantify random events.

0 kids abducted, 0 alarms
1 kid abducted, 1 alarm
n kids abducted, n alarms

Obviously it'll be more than that given tests and it's usage for other things, also mostly random.

You're looking for a reduction in these alarms. Cool. What's your criteria for doing so?
Based on my reading, I think the desired scenario would be something along the lines of

n kids abducted, 0 three-in-the-morning alarms
1 impending nuclear armageddon, 1 alarm
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 8:36 PM
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I'll try one more time.

I'd like you to tell me which alerts are worthy of being sent to your phone and which are not. There may be productive discussion to have in there.

Otherwise it's just complaining.
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