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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 11:16 PM
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My street is in the news again today. I think people in mainland Canadian cities, excluding perhaps places like Sydney, Nova Scotia, and Thompson, Manitoba, really can't imagine the sheer size of the lower class in St. John's and associated litter/petty crime. This is a very, very dirty city outside of the touristy areas. Different histories, I guess. We really didn't give a shit about the poor until Confederation (as VICE put it, our government did everything short of actively killing them lol). It's all tied up in surname, accent, neighbourhood, etc. But it's a subculture (known as skeets locally) that you're basically born into and largely condemned to stay in.

Looking for solutions to a continuously worsening situation



Quote:
...

In September, The Telegram detailed a wide range of issues on the street, including frequent fighting and loud noises at all hours, drug use, gunshots, suspicious fires, property damage and excessive garbage.

...

Deputy Mayor Sheilagh O’Leary drew attention to the issues during a city council meeting on Aug. 17. She said she was arranging a collaborative approach to find solutions.

The Telegram recently followed up and learned several provincial government departments, city officials and other community organizations are working together to deal with the situation.

Specifically, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corp. (NLHC) and the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development (CSSD), the Department of Immigration, Skills and Labour, and the Department of Health and Community Services are working with community partners on a holistic approach to address poverty, housing and homelessness concerns, according to an emailed statement from a CSSD spokesperson.

...

An email from a resident to former ward councillor Hope Jamieson on Nov. 13, 2019 said, “Over the past four months, I have become increasingly worried about the future of the street. While there have been frequent disturbances over my stay, the violence and aggression has escalated lately.

“Over the past month, police have visited almost daily, there has been (sic) two fires over a month, a sickening amount of debris and garbage present, and more and more altercations between residents.”

In a follow-up email to Jamieson on July 30, the resident wrote: “Regarding your advice to call the RNC, we have tried to talk with them and they do not seem to hear us. When they arrive on the street, there is normally an escalation of violence (if they come). When we hear violent outbursts, we are hesitant to call the RNC because of the way they’ve handled people in the past on our street. We’ve seen them assault people that are in crisis and needed mental-health interventions or a hospital.”

The resident also said the situation had “only gotten much, much worse” since last fall.

...

Another resident, in an Aug. 6 email to O’Leary, said the root cause of the street’s issues stemmed from “the terrible landlords and the amount of these types of rental properties in such a condensed area.”

Another email that month also mentioned property management concerns: “How someone can get away with having a tenant living in a property that does not have a working front door and the only window for escape in case of a fire being boarded up with plywood, is beyond me.”

...

A worker at 311 summarized a call from a frustrated resident on April 28 who called to complain about one property on the street where people were fighting and throwing items out windows, and smashed a mirror on the road and threatened neighbours with bear mace.

The caller noted drug-related activity, and said they found needles in front of their own property.

“RNC has been called on numerous occasions and nothing happens,” reads the note.

A sample of 311 calls and emails from May through August this year indicates residents complained about trucks coming from outside the street to dump up to 90 bags of garbage on the street for garbage pickup the next day; broken windows; an overpopulated bedsitting house with about 15 people allegedly living in it; loud noises at all hours; excessive garbage left outside homes, including items such as shopping carts, broken glass and used condoms; and calls over the span of 10 days in July that complained about a property with a backed-up sewer spewing out over the street.

...

An email dated Aug. 6 from a resident to O’Leary and Burton begins, “As of today, the situation is no better. It has gotten much worse.”

The resident described gunshots fired the night before, leaving bullet holes in a home.

...

The same day, another resident wrote to O'Leary about the situation on the street.

The resident said if the gunshots happened anywhere else, it would be all over the news.

“…But since it was our neighbourhood, no one cares,” they wrote.

An Aug. 10 email to O’Leary and Burton described a four-day “bender” on the street in the days after the shooting.

The resident listed several homes that “are having a great time. Meanwhile, the other residents are left wondering why the RNC isn’t doing anything.”

...

“On a daily basis, I see people who are facing issues of substance abuse, unstable housing, poverty and violence. … I value social justice, and would like to see people get the supports that they need. But at this moment I feel that everyone on my street is left to fend for themselves.”

...

O’Leary said she was taking the issue to another level, and asked for their co-operation.

The same day, there was an email from O’Leary to Coffin in which she said it will take a collaborative effort to address residents' concerns.

That spurred a process that has now begun, with meetings between many groups to try to find some solutions.

A resident also suggested practical solutions to some of the concerns on the street, such as a garbage bin for trash, and a disposal box for used needles.

Emails between Burton and city staff in August indicate Burton put in a request with staff to have a sharps box installed.
https://www.thetelegram.com/news/loc...utions-508594/

But that said, I feel perfectly safe here. And the neighbours, at least mine, are great. And the street does come together as needed.

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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 1:27 AM
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^You could be describing most of Brantford, large parts of London, Windsor, Hamilton, Kitchener and Cambridge or Toronto.
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 1:54 AM
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St. John's is a city of petty crime. It's very annoying. Cars in our neighbourhood are broken into nightly. This isn't what people would call a "bad neighbourhood". At one point in time your window would only be smashed if you left something of perceived value in sight in your car. Now people are smashing windows just to have an opportunity to see if there's anything in your glove box. The police say they're going to step up patrols in the neighbourhood but it's just lip service. The local police are great at portraying the image of being a good police force, but they're fucking horrible, bordering on incompetent at what they do.

Also lol at the last line in the article that SHH posted. Sharps boxes won't do anything. People don't throw used needles on the ground because there isn't a sharps box near. They do it because they don't care. There are plenty of sharps disposal boxes around the city....just walk 20 feet away from one and look at all the syringes just thrown in the grass.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 2:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
My street is in the news again today. I think people in mainland Canadian cities, excluding perhaps places like Sydney, Nova Scotia, and Thompson, Manitoba, really can't imagine the sheer size of the lower class in St. John's and associated litter/petty crime. This is a very, very dirty city outside of the touristy areas. Different histories, I guess. We really didn't give a shit about the poor until Confederation (as VICE put it, our government did everything short of actively killing them lol). It's all tied up in surname, accent, neighbourhood, etc. But it's a subculture (known as skeets locally) that you're basically born into and largely condemned to stay in.
...
Depending on your point of view, things could be worse, and probably are worse in larger cities. I suspect that a lot of those people would be literally homeless in Vancouver, or living in downtown Eastside single room occupancy hotels. The fact that there are accommodations that are affordable enough to house them may be seen as a kind of success story. So the need for better social services and support systems in the neighborhood may be of the utmost importance.
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
^You could be describing most of Brantford, large parts of London, Windsor, Hamilton, Kitchener and Cambridge or Toronto.
I stand corrected. Hamilton I've already heard is cool but like that.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Lighting up the... side of a supermarket with an AK-47 in suburban Stockholm.

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The comments under the video are *interesting*.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:15 PM
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There are swathes of seedy areas in London with high burglary rates (EoA, Pond Mills, Lyle/Eggerton/Florence, Horton & Wellington, etc.)...just like comparably sized cities in Canada
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I suppose that as "informal justice methods" (i.e. cops busting heads) decline, it is not altogether surprising that criminals might feel emboldened to commit acts that are subject to minor punishment, if any, through the justice system. But does anyone want to go back to the days when Constable Jones would rough up petty thieves with his billy club? Especially now when the petty thief is likely to be carrying a gun?
I have read this several times since yesterday. I still don't have answer for you (or to this).
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:28 PM
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Hearsay alert: it's probably not as prevalent, but I have heard first hand stories from cops* in Ontario that it does still happen. Sometimes instead of any type of street justice it's more of a "let's find a drunk guy to beat up for fun" thing. Other times it's roughing up someone in custody (don't mark up the face). Not that everyone - or even close to a majority - would partake, but it's not making any headlines or official reports either.

I'm not really convinced that fear of punishment has that much of an affect on criminal psyche, though it's obviously a complicated issue and it could play more or less of a factor dependent on a whole host of other things.

*Told in the format of "my psycho co-worker loves to do this".
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:31 PM
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It's very telling how on here and elsewhere you hear increasing numbers of people saying things like "our cops are useless" or "cops just let them do what they want", "cops stand by and do nothing"...

And we're Canada. One of the most pro-cop, cop-friendly places in the world.

One of our biggest national icons is a cop!

(I don't happen to think that Canadian cops are worse, more brutal, racist or corrupt today than they were at any point in the past.)

Another thing is that I think most western countries in terms of crime and civility are moving to a point where they are less like Mayberry and more like, say, Brazil. Or at least, more like the U.S. outside of exceptional places like the fictional Mayberry.
That wasn't anti cop on my part, I think the legal system has removed their teeth.
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I suppose that as "informal justice methods" (i.e. cops busting heads) decline, it is not altogether surprising that criminals might feel emboldened to commit acts that are subject to minor punishment, if any, through the justice system. But does anyone want to go back to the days when Constable Jones would rough up petty thieves with his billy club? Especially now when the petty thief is likely to be carrying a gun?
It doesn't have to be either or.

I honestly think it is only a matter of time before organized crime takes over the role they should be doing.

I.e. if a hobo sits in front of a store, they get the boot.

You're already seeing the supposed emergence of right wing militias in the states. If the legally system continues to push cops into being pysc ward nurses we're gonna end up having that problem.
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
My street is in the news again today. I think people in mainland Canadian cities, excluding perhaps places like Sydney, Nova Scotia, and Thompson, Manitoba, really can't imagine the sheer size of the lower class in St. John's and associated litter/petty crime. This is a very, very dirty city outside of the touristy areas. Different histories, I guess. We really didn't give a shit about the poor until Confederation (as VICE put it, our government did everything short of actively killing them lol). It's all tied up in surname, accent, neighbourhood, etc. But it's a subculture (known as skeets locally) that you're basically born into and largely condemned to stay in.

Looking for solutions to a continuously worsening situation


But that said, I feel perfectly safe here. And the neighbours, at least mine, are great. And the street does come together as needed.

Video Link
London Ontario's East End is much worst. I lived in Toronto never seen a thing that comes close.

I've lived in both and the only place that have made be in any shape or form nervous, is Shea heights(just because the people that live there tell me to be so).

Dundas is basically a 5 kilometer stretch that fills in as a pysc ward.

It's our main drag and the area that has the best potential for proper urban appeal. It's been overrun by sketch and it is means this city will never urbanize.



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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
There are swathes of seedy areas in London with high burglary rates (EoA, Pond Mills, Lyle/Eggerton/Florence, Horton & Wellington, etc.)...just like comparably sized cities in Canada


Difference is few cities give away the best real estate. Could you imagine if Old Quebec was over run?


People use to say East of Adelaide but the shit show starts at Budweiser Gardens.

When literal holocaust videos are less depressing than walking around down there you now there's a problem.

My brother in Law(ultra tree hugging liberal filth) came to visit last year, someone who enjoys venturing into homeless territories in Vancouver, routinely going there with his bike and half rotten blanket to stay the night. Even he was alarmed by this shit. It isn't that things are so bad, it is that they seem like they are gonna continue to get worst. The downtown has a Detroit isn't so far away vibe, the only place where you can get away from it is the shopping mall/strip mall areas of the northwest and west of the city. Unironically it is why I literally believe that London is the least affected city when it comes to covid.

Most of my inlaws are involved in some way or another with helping the homeless/addicted in Vancouver. They've all been concerned by how London is strangely somehow different. It isn't about a drug issue, crime or anything of the sort. It is the fact that all our best real estate is occupied. I said this on the first day I arrived, it is as if the hobos are unionized. The city spent a ton of money fixing up richmond and dundas and it is the same thing as ever. It's the core of the city, and I still want to off myself virtually every time I go down there.

Last edited by LakeLocker; Oct 14, 2020 at 2:40 PM.
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 12:58 PM
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I'm not really convinced that fear of punishment has that much of an affect on criminal psyche, though it's obviously a complicated issue and it could play more or less of a factor dependent on a whole host of other things.
I honestly think you'd be surprised about how much of their lives revolve around consequence.

If you have poor self control in general, consequence is the only thing that will drive you. When you aren't employed, nor are you fearing the shame of your peers things get bad quick. This is more or less the cycle of disrepair that allows people to fall apart.

If the social system removes your fear of starving and the police won't do anything, than the only thing that scares you is running out of synthetic pleasure.

The mistake is thinking that a long term consequence has any more pull than a short term consequence.

If the consequence is more than a few days away it doesn't exist.

I honestly think we're brewing up a new form of digitally organized crime that we will be helpless to stop.

Worst of all if it in any way cures a portion of the drug/hobo/crime issue, it'll get radical support from both sides of the isle.

Black market social services is a very scary outcome.

Empathy is a two way street. Yes these people need help, but it isn't the kind of help that most people want to offer.

Last edited by LakeLocker; Oct 14, 2020 at 2:37 PM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 1:05 PM
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Ugh. I hate being just cold, hard wrong. Makes me want to edit my post

Thanks for the info about Canada’s seediness, all!
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  #55  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 1:20 PM
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That wasn't anti cop on my part, I think the legal system has removed their teeth.
I knew it wasn't. No worries. And yes I agree about the legal system. Which of course has the effect of demotivating a lot of cops. (Not that cops are perfect or always excusable of course.)
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  #56  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 2:09 PM
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I'm not really convinced that fear of punishment has that much of an affect on criminal psyche, though it's obviously a complicated issue and it could play more or less of a factor dependent on a whole host of other things.
Sometimes environmental factors can have an effect on the criminal psyche.

For example, a well placed rock through a downtown window and an uninspired footchase with some pilfered goods in October could reward a homeless person with a nice warm bed and three square meals a day in a provincial institution for the winter. The provincial jail in Shediac is only five years old and is quite fetching on the inside I hear...........

I may be joking, but it is not untrue that some people do perform minor petty criminal acts in the fall to get in jail for the wintertime.
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  #57  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
There are swathes of seedy areas in London with high burglary rates (EoA, Pond Mills, Lyle/Eggerton/Florence, Horton & Wellington, etc.)...just like comparably sized cities in Canada
I'm not sure what the situation is like in other cities in Canada, but the inner city areas once home mainly to the working class/working poor are now more working poor/underclass. They have become much "harder" places with a lot of people operating outside the bounds of what we might consider mainstream society.

To those familiar with Winnipeg I'd be referring to the most hardcore areas like the North End (and not the West Kildonan parts of the North End, but the real North End, mainly south of Mountain Avenue), Point Douglas, the Centennial area, the eastern edge of the West End, even into Elmwood a bit. 30 years ago those were still woven into the texture of the city with lots of normal businesses, working class residents with tidy yards, a social network with clubs, churches, associations, etc.

These days those areas tend to have the hallmarks of poverty... business tends to cater to the underclass (tattoo parlors, bong shops, thrift stores, payday loan places, etc.), lots of social agencies/social services, few local community institutions, etc. There aren't many employers where a local kid can pick up a job out of high school.

And most noticeably, those areas have gotten harder. More crime, more violence, drugs, gangs, unprovoked assaults, etc. They aren't really places where a lot of people would felt comfortable walking around after dark. While we're still a long way from the situation in a lot of American cities, these parts of Winnipeg have been moving in that direction for the last 40-odd years.
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  #58  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I'm not sure what the situation is like in other cities in Canada, but the inner city areas once home mainly to the working class/working poor are now more working poor/underclass. They have become much "harder" places with a lot of people operating outside the bounds of what we might consider mainstream society.

To those familiar with Winnipeg I'd be referring to the most hardcore areas like the North End (and not the West Kildonan parts of the North End, but the real North End, mainly south of Mountain Avenue), Point Douglas, the Centennial area, the eastern edge of the West End, even into Elmwood a bit. 30 years ago those were still woven into the texture of the city with lots of normal businesses, working class residents with tidy yards, a social network with clubs, churches, associations, etc.

These days those areas tend to have the hallmarks of poverty... business tends to cater to the underclass (tattoo parlors, bong shops, thrift stores, payday loan places, etc.), lots of social agencies/social services, few local community institutions, etc. There aren't many employers where a local kid can pick up a job out of high school.

And most noticeably, those areas have gotten harder. More crime, more violence, drugs, gangs, unprovoked assaults, etc. They aren't really places where a lot of people would felt comfortable walking around after dark. While we're still a long way from the situation in a lot of American cities, these parts of Winnipeg have been moving in that direction for the last 40-odd years.

I was just streetviewing around the North End - it has some great urban bones & interesting industrial landscapes. Reminds me a lot of parts of Buffalo or Chicago:

https://goo.gl/maps/tx2s5PsVe9kppSUE9
https://goo.gl/maps/jmaxPWBxPuPXxnk19
https://goo.gl/maps/Ro1yoUFX75M6twMT6
https://goo.gl/maps/UcKzSSMaTrpyNcoM6
https://goo.gl/maps/armmh5aetUAaFQfu7
https://goo.gl/maps/3n6aVtGx9Xu3sL1p7

Winnipeg has a pretty health population growth rate though, so at some point I have to imagine that immigrants and creatives will start to take advantage of the affordability of the area (if they haven't already); which should revive it as a functional, working class urban neighbourhood.
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Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I was just streetviewing around the North End - it has some great urban bones & interesting industrial landscapes. Reminds me a lot of parts of Buffalo or Chicago:

https://goo.gl/maps/tx2s5PsVe9kppSUE9
https://goo.gl/maps/jmaxPWBxPuPXxnk19
https://goo.gl/maps/Ro1yoUFX75M6twMT6
https://goo.gl/maps/UcKzSSMaTrpyNcoM6
https://goo.gl/maps/armmh5aetUAaFQfu7
https://goo.gl/maps/3n6aVtGx9Xu3sL1p7

Winnipeg has a pretty health population growth rate though, so at some point I have to imagine that immigrants and creatives will start to take advantage of the affordability of the area (if they haven't already); which should revive it as a functional, working class urban neighbourhood.
The area's bones are good for sure, particularly the commercial buildings. Selkirk Avenue is the best urban strip in Winnipeg outside of the downtown area, even in spite of the many buildings that have disappeared over the last 30 years. That was about the time when it ceased being a neighbourhood high street with stores, banks, restaurants, etc. and became what it is today.

There has been a small influx of creative types who have been priced out of the Exchange District (lured by cheap studio spaces), but it is too small to have a noticeable impact on the area. Not a whole lot of immigrants either - some refugees, but not many immigrants with some resources available. It's still kind of a place where you go when you have no other choices available.

Incidentally, you picked six excellent representative samples of the North End and Point Douglas... those six views would give anyone a pretty good idea of what the area is like.
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Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 4:19 PM
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The area's bones are good for sure, particularly the commercial buildings. Selkirk Avenue is the best urban strip in Winnipeg outside of the downtown area, even in spite of the many buildings that have disappeared over the last 30 years. That was about the time when it ceased being a neighbourhood high street with stores, banks, restaurants, etc. and became what it is today.

There has been a small influx of creative types who have been priced out of the Exchange District (lured by cheap studio spaces), but it is too small to have a noticeable impact on the area. Not a whole lot of immigrants either - some refugees, but not many immigrants with some resources available. It's still kind of a place where you go when you have no other choices available.

Incidentally, you picked six excellent representative samples of the North End and Point Douglas... those six views would give anyone a pretty good idea of what the area is like.
I have always found front-yard fences (often chain link) in north end Winnipeg to be atypical of Canadian cities.
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