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  #4401  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 4:50 AM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Right downtown but not exactly a transit-friendly location.

While many would be opposed, I can see upper level governments putting money into it, as the Blue Jays are actually quite popular and seen in a positive light. (Their ownership perhaps not so much though.)
I believe this is the alternate site mentioned in the articles I have read and the little bit of research I was able to do. The city wants this area fixed up and it has some popular rejuvenated areas nearby, notably the Distillery District. Not sure about TTC to the area. It's about a mile east of Union Station, so a bit of a walk to the subway. But the Go Rail line goes right by the site, so it's probably not too difficult a task to add a station that only needs to be in service for game time, until at least sometime when the area builds up to support full time service.
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  #4402  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 5:13 AM
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Ya that location is probably not going to happen. It's stuck in no man's land in that it's too far from Union, but nor far enough East that the future East Harbour GO could become the new terminus for suburban Jays fans. My fantasy was always a ball park at the south end of the Port Lands, overlooking the harbour with Downtown in the background. It's a faux-pass have the stadium facing West from home plate though, and it would be very detrimental to fans used to walking from Union Station.

I doubt this will be fully privately funded, and if the government is going to get involved, it makes a lot of sense to stick it at the terminus of a new very expensive subway line at Exhibition.
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  #4403  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Its ridiculous that a huge city like Toronto( by north american standards) has to settle for one of the worst stadiums in baseball. Theres obviously a huge following for the blue jays across the country (see t mobile when toronto is there), so if the there is government help to bring us up to par, ill accept it.
I still have yet to hear any specific complaints about Skydome beyond the fact that it doesn't have a natural grass surface. What makes it one of the worst stadiums in baseball? I've sat in the different levels and never had a problem with the sightlines.

I've been to games at some of the old classic venues like Wrigley and the new acclaimed venues like Target and to me it's not like they blew Skydome away. If anything Wrigley is objectively an old dump compared to Skydome that people only like because of nostalgia, which is admittedly a major component of baseball in a way that it isn't for any other sport.
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  #4404  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 7:17 PM
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I still have yet to hear any specific complaints about Skydome beyond the fact that it doesn't have a natural grass surface. What makes it one of the worst stadiums in baseball? I've sat in the different levels and never had a problem with the sightlines.

I've been to games at some of the old classic venues like Wrigley and the new acclaimed venues like Target and to me it's not like they blew Skydome away. If anything Wrigley is objectively an old dump compared to Skydome that people only like because of nostalgia, which is admittedly a major component of baseball in a way that it isn't for any other sport.
It would make a huge difference if there wasn't a giant wall of stands and retractable roof blocking the view of downtown Toronto. It's sterile compared to most other stadiums.

Toronto could duplicate what they have in San Francisco, but they would have to orient the park in a southerly direction. Or if they build on the Rogers Centre site, they could have a view similar to PNC Park in Pittsburgh.

The link below shows the views of every MLB stadium, and their rankings (subjective of course).




https://ftw.usatoday.com/gallery/mlb...ball-ballparks
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  #4405  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I still have yet to hear any specific complaints about Skydome beyond the fact that it doesn't have a natural grass surface. What makes it one of the worst stadiums in baseball? I've sat in the different levels and never had a problem with the sightlines.

I've been to games at some of the old classic venues like Wrigley and the new acclaimed venues like Target and to me it's not like they blew Skydome away. If anything Wrigley is objectively an old dump compared to Skydome that people only like because of nostalgia, which is admittedly a major component of baseball in a way that it isn't for any other sport.
More common areas with standing room for large groups to congregate. Better bar/restaurant options that feel like they're part of the experience and not shoved into dark corners.

An ideal stadium would have areas like this on both sides of the outfield



The biggest thing for me though is that baseball is an experiential sport from a fans perspective. Feeling like you're in the middle of the city in the open air with a great view down centre field. Baseball stadiums have the opportunity to be great urban experiences since they don't have to be as closed off as a Football stadium or indoor arena. How awesome is it at Wrigley to see the rooftop patios of the buildings across the street all looking in to watch the game? Walking into a giant bunker just completely separates you from your surroundings. You can see the CN Tower when the dome is open, but you kind of feel like you're in a fishbowl.

These are all things I'd love to address in a new stadium, but I still don't want any public money that could've gone towards sorely needed transit improvements to be spent for Rogers benefit.
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  #4406  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It would make a huge difference if there wasn't a giant wall of stands and retractable roof blocking the view of downtown Toronto. It's sterile compared to most other stadiums.

Toronto could duplicate what they have in San Francisco, but they would have to orient the park in a southerly direction. Or if they build on the Rogers Centre site, they could have a view similar to PNC Park in Pittsburgh.

The link below shows the views of every MLB stadium, and their rankings (subjective of course).
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I'm going to a ball game, I'm interested in having a couple of beers and watching a ball game. Not the skyline of Toronto.

If the Jays suck, it's hard to entice people to go to a ball game. The Marlins have a shiny new stadium and have miserable attendance. Baltimore - home of 'classic' Camden Yards - was 28th of 30 teams in 2019, because they had an atrocious season.

There's a whole pile of teams around the Jays' attendance that have shiny new stadiums. I just smell Rogers playing the grift card. At least the last time the expensive stadium benefited a larger group of stakeholders and was a venue the city didn't have before. Now, there's almost no way to say that this isn't essentially a big handout to Rogers. Rogers, a corporation that has a protected market for telecom in this country.

Like I said, no thanks. Rogers already gets a free ride from us. They don't need another handout when the Province of Ontario has a $40 billion deficit and $350 billion in debt.
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  #4407  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 11:00 PM
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Coors, PNC and whatever San Fran is called this year are all great examples shown above. The one big thing missing of course is those are open air. Are Jays fans going to be okay with an open air stadium like those, or is a roof a must? If so, then the structure is going to impede whatever views people are going for.
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  #4408  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Coors, PNC and whatever San Fran is called this year are all great examples shown above. The one big thing missing of course is those are open air. Are Jays fans going to be okay with an open air stadium like those, or is a roof a must? If so, then the structure is going to impede whatever views people are going for.
Not necessarily. Safeco in Seattle created a good compromise, it's just blocked by a giant football stadium.



I just think this type of stadium takes up way too much space for what the development partners are going to want to achieve on the remainder of the land.
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  #4409  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 12:41 AM
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If it's going to be a baseball-only stadium, they should just forget the roof. Have a traditional baseball stadium. There are plenty of MLB teams in cold-climates with open air stadiums.

Plus, I suspect MLB will reduce the amount of games in the future to try and make each game more meaningful in an attempt to stop the decline in interest - which could result in the season starting a month later in warmer weather.

Make it traditional and intimate - about 35k seats... expandable to about 40k when needed.
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  #4410  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 1:16 AM
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I did have a look at places like Safeco and Miller as well. Really, I think Minute Maid would be a better option, if they are able to come up with a similar glass wall that opens up the view either right or left field and also not be affected by our climate. That left field in Safeco still has a large bleacher section filling in the space below the structure to support the roof rails. Minute Maid opens up much lower. Of course, if they are going to rebuild on the Rogers Centre site, then what kind of city view is there going to be anyway when they are talking about all this development going on along the north side of the site.
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  #4411  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 1:57 PM
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Defeats the purpose to build on site. You can't build commercial space and a ballpark. The office space is the sales pitch and so is a new ballpark on the Ontario Line. The province would be fools to go for it. The Skydome financial fiasco is still recent history. This is going nowhere.
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  #4412  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I'm going to a ball game, I'm interested in having a couple of beers and watching a ball game. Not the skyline of Toronto.

If the Jays suck, it's hard to entice people to go to a ball game. The Marlins have a shiny new stadium and have miserable attendance. Baltimore - home of 'classic' Camden Yards - was 28th of 30 teams in 2019, because they had an atrocious season.

There's a whole pile of teams around the Jays' attendance that have shiny new stadiums. I just smell Rogers playing the grift card. At least the last time the expensive stadium benefited a larger group of stakeholders and was a venue the city didn't have before. Now, there's almost no way to say that this isn't essentially a big handout to Rogers. Rogers, a corporation that has a protected market for telecom in this country.

Like I said, no thanks. Rogers already gets a free ride from us. They don't need another handout when the Province of Ontario has a $40 billion deficit and $350 billion in debt.
That's exactly what's going on here and I'm surprised that it isn't obvious to most. There is nothing wrong with the current place... Rogers just has to make it seem like there is in order to turn up the pressure on governments to make a deal on a new venue that allows them to cash in on the land Skydome currently sits on.

You could at least rationalize Skydome as a public expense in the sense that it was way more advanced than Exhibition Stadium which didn't have much more to it than stands and a field. Skydome was a major upgrade. But what would Toronto be getting this time? A grass field, a skyline view and a couple of restaurants to pay $40 for a plate of Rogers nachos in?

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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
If it's going to be a baseball-only stadium, they should just forget the roof. Have a traditional baseball stadium. There are plenty of MLB teams in cold-climates with open air stadiums.

Plus, I suspect MLB will reduce the amount of games in the future to try and make each game more meaningful in an attempt to stop the decline in interest - which could result in the season starting a month later in warmer weather.

Make it traditional and intimate - about 35k seats... expandable to about 40k when needed.
I'd wager that the moment an open air stadium opens is the moment that griping about unpleasant weather begins. For games before May long weekend, it's basically a coin toss as to whether the daytime high would be in the single digits or into the double digits. Those early season games tend not to be great draws at the best of times... what will it be like when it's 5 degrees and gray outside?

That said, if MLB does reduce the number of games such that the season starts at the end of April, then an outdoor stadium could be more realistic. But when has a pro league ever permanently shortened its season beyond minor adjustments? Is MLB likely to want to say no to an entire month of gate receipts and TV revenue?
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  #4413  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:40 PM
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Everyone "knows what's going on", no one thinks Rogers is some benevolent overlord trying to do right by the people of Toronto. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it or not to play their game. IF they can privately fund it, then giving them the residual commercial land is a pretty fair trade off. When they most likely can't, then what amount of public funds would taxpayers be willing to part with to address the current deficiencies? I'd personally probably put my cap at about $100 million, payable by a 5-year levy or something similar. That's how much I value the improvements that a new stadium could provide. Lots of other people would say $0, some would say fund the whole thing if need be.
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  #4414  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:57 PM
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That said, if MLB does reduce the number of games such that the season starts at the end of April, then an outdoor stadium could be more realistic. But when has a pro league ever permanently shortened its season beyond minor adjustments? Is MLB likely to want to say no to an entire month of gate receipts and TV revenue?
Probably never, but the 4 major leagues in NA haven't experienced a long term overall decline until now with what's happening to MLB - at least in the more modern era. If this continues on for a while longer, at some point they're going to need to do something more drastic like reduce the schedule. 162 games makes each game less important.

In this day with endless amounts of entertainment options available and the reduced attention span of kids, baseball's going to be hit the hardest. They're going to need to make the most drastic of changes if they want to survive.
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  #4415  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 4:17 PM
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In this day with endless amounts of entertainment options available and the reduced attention span of kids, baseball's going to be hit the hardest. They're going to need to make the most drastic of changes if they want to survive.
Yeah, it's always the kids' fault.

Millennials and Gen Z simply have more options for entertainment. Period. And baseball isn't all that exciting when compared to literally anything else. Once you remove the 'cultural' aspect for many what's left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire
There is nothing wrong with the current place... Rogers just has to make it seem like there is in order to turn up the pressure on governments to make a deal on a new venue that allows them to cash in on the land Skydome currently sits on.
It's been stated a number of times in this thread what the issues with SkyDome are. Can the Jays continue playing there? Sure. Should they keep playing there? Probably not. Their revenue-generating options are limited and they're quickly falling behind other MLB teams on things like in-game activations, stadium amenities, and overall fan experience.

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Originally Posted by esquire
I'd wager that the moment an open air stadium opens is the moment that griping about unpleasant weather begins. For games before May long weekend, it's basically a coin toss as to whether the daytime high would be in the single digits or into the double digits. Those early season games tend not to be great draws at the best of times... what will it be like when it's 5 degrees and gray outside?
Just do what MLS does, then, and frontload the Jays' schedule with games in Tampa and the south until it gets warms enough in Canada to begin hosting games. It makes a lot of sense for Texas to be hosting games in April instead of July anyway considering their weather down there.

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Originally Posted by wave46
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I'm going to a ball game, I'm interested in having a couple of beers and watching a ball game. Not the skyline of Toronto.
I don't know how anyone, especially on SkyScraperPage forum, would turn down the opportunity to sit outside on a nice summer's afternoon with a long skyline view in the distance.

Detroit:
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  #4416  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 4:45 PM
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Baseball's future is very murky indeed as they have had even before the pandemic I believe 10 consecutive years of declining attendance and the same goes for AAA and independent minor league baseball as well. Baseball star power is extremely diminished as well outside of Bryce Harper and Mike Trout to the casual fan it takes a long time to even know of some of the games best players right now to name off the top of your head. Compare that to NFL and NBA and baseball is lost in the dust.
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  #4417  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 4:57 PM
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Yeah, it's always the kids' fault.

Millennials and Gen Z simply have more options for entertainment. Period. And baseball isn't all that exciting when compared to literally anything else. Once you remove the 'cultural' aspect for many what's left?
Yeah, that's kinda the point I was making. Their attention spans get shorter because there are so many forms of entertainment out there. If something is getting dull, you can much easier turn to something else. This is happening to adults as well, myself included... but the younger generation are brought up with all these options that they have less patience (generally speaking). They've done studies on this already.
We see this in the movie industry as well - nowadays the average shot lasts around 2.5 seconds.
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  #4418  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 5:09 PM
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I don't know how anyone, especially on SkyScraperPage forum, would turn down the opportunity to sit outside on a nice summer's afternoon with a long skyline view in the distance.
I can do this in many places in Toronto. Best of all, I'm not an involuntary contributor via taxation and subsidization of some mega-corporation's shareholders.
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  #4419  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 5:51 PM
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Above all, having a massive, all-weather stadium like Skydome is valuable to Toronto for concerts, special events, and whatever else. The benefits far outweigh the costs of a suboptimal baseball experience. The idea that Toronto, at best a tepid baseball market, is somehow deficient as a large North American city because it lacks a baseball-specific stadium, is ludicrous. If Toronto didn't have a world class hockey rink, that would be a glaring flaw. But it's baseball, we need a specific stadium for that like we need a specific stadium for jai alai. And with apologies to the infinitely small handful of Canadian baseball purists, any new stadium will need a retractable roof.

So, add me to the chorus of taxpayers unwilling to put up money for this fishing expedition from Rogers and Brookfield. Even privately funded, the demolition of Skydome for a smaller baseball-specific stadium would be a major deduction to Toronto. We'd lose a versatile piece of infrastructure in exchange for some shiny bauble that will be substantially less useful to anyone except for the ~10 000 true baseball fans who really care. And then in 20 years when the lustre is long gone and no one wants to watch baseball in a snowstorm... Rogers will be at it again.

The whole thing reeks of a publicity stunt and is almost undoubtedly pure bollocks anyway. I'm relieved to think the Jays will still be in the dome in ten years. And for the 2030 fan who wants the all-American hot dogs and cracker jacks experience, I'm sure Atlanta will have a brand new stadium to visit.
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  #4420  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 6:54 PM
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When they most likely can't, then what amount of public funds would taxpayers be willing to part with to address the current deficiencies? I'd personally probably put my cap at about $100 million, payable by a 5-year levy or something similar. That's how much I value the improvements that a new stadium could provide. Lots of other people would say $0, some would say fund the whole thing if need be.
Not a dollar more than is contributed to a CFL stadium in Halifax.
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