HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #581  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 5:31 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Bus lanes that see a bus once every 7.5 minutes at peak would not be a very efficient use of space I think.
The funny thing is that a bus every 7.5 minutes actually transports more people than a congested car lane (800 pphpd with artics every 7.5 minutes vs. 600 cars per hour) and would move them a lot faster. With the cost savings of faster buses, you can increase the frequency, increasing its capacity by multiples without congesting.

So the real question is not whether Bank is wide enough for the highly-efficient bus lanes or bike lanes. It's whether it has enough space for dedicated car lanes.
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #582  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 6:21 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,934
There have been some good comments – from those who actually stayed on the topic of a Bank Street Subway.

• TBM don’t work well for shallow tunnels: A TBM needs about 1.5 X the tunnel diameter for overburden. If the bore is 5.5m, for a finished interior diameter of 4.5+m, then the top of the TBM should be at least 8.25m below grade.
• People get confused when they must choose the direction of travel when on the surface: Although I have the opposite opinion, since the trains would run in the same direction as the traffic above them. If you want to go north, you go down on the north-bound side of the street. However, given that the top of the tunnel will be at least 8.25m down, also that utilities are usually buried within the top 3m under a road, there would be about 5m of remaining height for an underground Concourse that can then lead down to a central platform. These would be built by driving piles at night, then using cut & cover to quickly build the top of the Concourse upon the pile caps (and perhaps the side walls), then the surface is restored, and then the chamber and station are excavated from below. The Concourses would be under intersections, with an entrance on each corner. Let’s put an estimated price of $25M for each of the ‘Intersection Stations’.
• The cost estimate: Let’s look at an Ottawa example, the CSST, that was bored with a 3m (finished inside diameter) TBM. Over 6 km of CSST tunnels cost $232M. That cost included other paraphernalia, specific to a sewer work, so let’s reduce the cost to $220M for 6 km of 3m tunnel. Assuming proportional costs, 4.5m bores would cost about 2.3 times what a 3m bore costs. Then, the added length increases the cost by 7/6 – and, of course, there will be two tunnels, so we double it. Therefore, the total cost for two finished 7 km X 4.5m tunnels should be about $1.2B. That cost is only for the tubes, the stations (as per the previous point) and all of the rail infrastructure is additional to that.
• Curve the Billings Bridge Station under the Transitway station or keep it under Bank Street: This is a matter of where the line could be extended in the future. Previously, I suggested that it could head south along the SE Transitway, to provide a connection with the airport. In order to do that, I imagine the line heading west from Billings Bridge, built into the slope behind the Data Centre Building, under Bronson, and curve to meet the existing Trillium Line Mooney’s Bay Station. From there, it would steal some of the SE Transitway corridor to get to South Keys. That is a relatively inexpensive extension that would better serve the Baseline BRT and the airport. That was my vision for the line, but others have equally valid ideas also. That will be part of the discussions in this thread.
• The elevation difference between a station above the Confederation Line and the bottom of the Ottawa River is too great: Quite true. Bank at Queen is at about 72m Above Sea Level (ASL) and the surface of the river is roughly 48m ASL. Assuming a depth of 3m-5m for the river, that would mean that the bottom of the tunnel would need to dive from 58m ASL to 30m ASL in about 400m – which is a grade of 7%! Too great. It seems that the station might need to be below the Confederation Line, if this train extended across the river. The bulk of the line could still be shallow, however, with this single station being deep. It would need to be mined out from the tunnel, up to the Lyon and Parliament/Parlement Stations. Because it makes use of the other stations for most of the vertical circulation, I am giving it an estimated cost of $40M.
• An alternative to the elevation change problem: It might also be possible to have the Bank Subway remain shallow, and above the Confederation Line, but exit the hillside and cross the river on a descending, elevated structure. It would seem from the REM construction that elevated structures are relatively inexpensive. This would offer another viewing option to see the river and Parliament Hill (from the north-west).
• Not including the Aylmer Tram with the Bank Subway: This is certainly an option. However, if the new line stays only under Bank Street, it will be less attractive for the Feds to pay a large portion of the cost. As an interprovincial line, it might get preferred funding – especially if it connects major Federal complexes.
• There is no good Business Case for a Bank Street Subway: Maybe not for the full length of Bank Street, but there might be good reasons to build enough of it, since it would provide superior public transit between the seat of Federal Government on the Ontario side and the large federal campuses on the Quebec side of the river. It also provides the ability to add a higher-order of public transit to a principal street that can then be narrowed to vehicles and made friendlier for active transport. (Then, maybe, some of the chatter about bike lanes on Bank Street would be relevant to this thread.) TOD could be encouraged along the section of Bank Street that is served by the subway. It can take some of the load off the Confederation Line as fewer south-end residents will be transferring from the Trillium Line at Bayview – to travel only two or three stations. This last point might be quite important as the Confederation and Trillium Lines are extended. More people will be transferring and there will need to be space in the trains that arrive – empty space that will need to travel all the way to Barrhaven/Kanata and back.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #583  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 7:34 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
• People get confused when they must choose the direction of travel when on the surface: Although I have the opposite opinion, since the trains would run in the same direction as the traffic above them. If you want to go north, you go down on the north-bound side of the street. However, given that the top of the tunnel will be at least 8.25m down, also that utilities are usually buried within the top 3m under a road, there would be about 5m of remaining height for an underground Concourse that can then lead down to a central platform. These would be built by driving piles at night, then using cut & cover to quickly build the top of the Concourse upon the pile caps (and perhaps the side walls), then the surface is restored, and then the chamber and station are excavated from below. The Concourses would be under intersections, with an entrance on each corner. Let’s put an estimated price of $25M for each of the ‘Intersection Stations’.
Confused may have been a bad word. I think people just don't expect to have to make a decision at that stage.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #584  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 7:40 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,762
For me, it's not as much a confusion thing as a convenience thing. I wouldn't want to have to walk to the intersection, wait at the light and cross the street to go down the stairs that lead to my direction of travel; I want to be able to go one level down to a concourse that offers access to both directions. I feel like having single direction entrances like some NYC subway stations would lead to more j-walking (already a huge nuisance on Queen, at PdV in particular).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #585  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2020, 2:34 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Last year there was also a Bank Street Transportation Forum with info on Councillor Menard's website (https://www.shawnmenard.ca/bank_stre...as_we_heard_it). That report discusses a potential PM peak northbound bus lane in Old Ottawa South and a re-design of route 7 to make it faster. I hope these both go ahead as well.
From Councillor Menard's report, comments by Pat Scrimgeour of OCTranspo:
With the launch of LRT, routes 6 and 7 were moved off Wellington Avenue and onto Queen Street. Getting the buses off Wellington allows the buses to move better and more easily through the downtown core, reducing the chances of buses being caught in traffic.
Yeah, that did not happen. The problem of buses getting stuck on Wellington was just moved one block south so that the now get stuck on Queen, and the left-turn trap from Queen to Bank is even worse than the left-turn trap that existed at Wellington.
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #586  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 10:48 AM
Clinton Desveaux Clinton Desveaux is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 58
I have been following this group and 1 other forum carefully now for last month since news of the Ottawa/Gatineau Rail Loop broke. The following is part 2 of a 5 part series on the Ottawa Bank Street O-Train Tunnel:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ottaw...nnel-desveaux/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #587  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 9:48 PM
Clinton Desveaux Clinton Desveaux is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 58
Here is a map that was sent to me today with the Bank Street O-Train Tunnel on it



https://imgur.com/gallery/qzuYv0L
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #588  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 11:37 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #589  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 12:09 AM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Building a purple line like that makes way too much sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #590  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 5:51 AM
Nowhere Nowhere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Building a purple line like that makes way too much sense.
But where are we going to find $10-15 billions ?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #591  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 2:26 PM
Clinton Desveaux Clinton Desveaux is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Building a purple line like that makes way too much sense.

Ottawa Community Leaders Support Bank Street O-Train Tunnel

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ottaw...l-desveaux-1e/

And

Bank Street O-Train Tunnel

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ottaw...on-p-desveaux/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #592  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 3:21 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere View Post
But where are we going to find $10-15 billions ?
The same place we find any other money we spend?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #593  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 8:29 PM
Nowhere Nowhere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
The same place we find any other money we spend?
The Feds and Queen's Park aren't going to agree if they were only willing to fund about half of the $4.6B for stage 2.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #594  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 2:39 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere View Post
But where are we going to find $10-15 billions ?
Before we worry about finding that inflated imaginary amount of money, how about we accept, as a city, the need to bring urban transit into the urban portions of the city, and then start thinking about the technological and financial challenges.

The city has no problem planning for higher-order suburban transit first, then worrying about the finances later. Why the double standard when it comes to urban areas?
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #595  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 3:27 AM
Nowhere Nowhere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Before we worry about finding that inflated imaginary amount of money, how about we accept, as a city, the need to bring urban transit into the urban portions of the city, and then start thinking about the technological and financial challenges.

The city has no problem planning for higher-order suburban transit first, then worrying about the finances later. Why the double standard when it comes to urban areas?
Don't quote me on that since I'm no engineer, however :

The purple line on that map is about 22km and listed as "tunnel". I didn't find any newer estimate, but In Toronto, LRT was evaluated at $269M / km in 2011 for the underground portion of the Eglinton-Crosstown line. Now let's assume 3% of yearly inflation between 2011 and 2030. We get $9.2B. Now let's consider there's a lot of poor quality soil around Sandy Hill, Centretown and the Glebe. It's likely gonna be over $10B.

No reliable estimate can be made without an environmental assessment, but something is sure, it's not gonna be cheap. I'm no Watson supporter and all in favour of better urban transit, but we should look at more realistic options.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #596  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 4:46 AM
Clinton Desveaux Clinton Desveaux is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere View Post
Don't quote me on that since I'm no engineer, however :

The purple line on that map is about 22km and listed as "tunnel". I didn't find any newer estimate, but In Toronto, LRT was evaluated at $269M / km in 2011 for the underground portion of the Eglinton-Crosstown line. Now let's assume 3% of yearly inflation between 2011 and 2030. We get $9.2B. Now let's consider there's a lot of poor quality soil around Sandy Hill, Centretown and the Glebe. It's likely gonna be over $10B.

No reliable estimate can be made without an environmental assessment, but something is sure, it's not gonna be cheap. I'm no Watson supporter and all in favour of better urban transit, but we should look at more realistic options.
Actually the people I spoke with don't want the 22 km line - they want the 4.5 km Bank Street O-Train Tunnel from Parliament Station to Billings Bridge
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #597  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 4:50 AM
Clinton Desveaux Clinton Desveaux is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Before we worry about finding that inflated imaginary amount of money, how about we accept, as a city, the need to bring urban transit into the urban portions of the city, and then start thinking about the technological and financial challenges.

The city has no problem planning for higher-order suburban transit first, then worrying about the finances later. Why the double standard when it comes to urban areas?
That's a very good point - the theme I heard talking to people was that the Bank Street Tunnel is the core - and if the core is strong the rest will prosper they called it "network effect". They indicated the system as it currently exists is ready to collapse because the core is non-existent. Former Mayor Larry O'Brien talked at length about the network effect as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #598  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 6:28 AM
Harley613's Avatar
Harley613 Harley613 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Aylmer, QC
Posts: 6,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
On this map my street, Boulevard d'Amsterdam, reads as Boulevard d'Armsterdam. Gave me a chuckle.

Last edited by Harley613; Nov 29, 2020 at 6:29 AM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #599  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 6:49 AM
Nowhere Nowhere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Desveaux View Post
Actually the people I spoke with don't want the 22 km line - they want the 4.5 km Bank Street O-Train Tunnel from Parliament Station to Billings Bridge
The underground Sheppard Line in Toronto isn't much longer and it's been considered a massive failure with an average daily weekday ridership of only 50 150 for 2018. Uhuniau got some ridership stats for 2015 weekdays and the former 1 / new 6 was 11 300, which also includes the South Keys and Rockliffe portions. Even if the subway managed to get a ridership of 20 000 with the better service, we would still be running nearly empty trains. A stadium isn't a reliable source of ridership and redevelopment opportunities are very limited in the area, being historic neighbourhoods.

If I was the king, I would convert the whole Colonel By Driveway into a transitway linking the Hog's Back area, UCarleton, TD place (with a pedestrian overpass/underpass), U of O and Rideau Centre. It would be a giant improvement for urban transit that would cost very little, but we can forget about that because of the NCC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #600  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 10:43 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,807
It is interesting to see "officialdom" and the community circuits actually caring about the Bank Street subway idea.

Up until now, the Bank Street subway idea has only ever been discussed among SSPers and other related transit geek forums.

All costs aside, Line 5, as they've taken to calling it, should absolutely, at the very least, be studied.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:55 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.