HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 8:44 AM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
What’s the use of building up downtown so much, if you take away shopping and movies?
Much of the retail space in all cities is being absorbed by the sort of place that can't be duplicated online: Restaurants, recreational facilities and so on. So the point of downtown is becoming not so much shopping for THINGS as a place to spend one's free time and a place to WORK. In a way, this takes us back to ancient times when the center of ancient cities wasn't so much about buying and selling as about congregating for public spectacles, political events, religious worship, sporting/entertainment events and so on. Not much was bought and sold in the Roman forum, the baths, the Coloseum or Circus Maximus or the various temples and public buildings of the city center.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 10:09 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
obit anus, abit onus
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 803
^ Difference being, of course, that those spectacles and festivals in the ancient city were generally free and open to all, and therefore attended by all (and there was indeed plenty bought and sold in those places -- remember how Jesus had to throw the money-changers out of the temple?). Whereas the corporate offices, hotels, bars, restaurants, clubs, theaters, gyms, concert halls and sports arenas of modern cities are private spaces serving an increasingly elite clientele. At least shopping malls were semi-public places where, for instance, one could loiter as a teenager so long as you weren't objectionable to the rent-a-cops.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 8:30 PM
liat91 liat91 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
^ Difference being, of course, that those spectacles and festivals in the ancient city were generally free and open to all, and therefore attended by all (and there was indeed plenty bought and sold in those places -- remember how Jesus had to throw the money-changers out of the temple?). Whereas the corporate offices, hotels, bars, restaurants, clubs, theaters, gyms, concert halls and sports arenas of modern cities are private spaces serving an increasingly elite clientele. At least shopping malls were semi-public places where, for instance, one could loiter as a teenager so long as you weren't objectionable to the rent-a-cops.
Tend to agree. Our center cities will be for elites and specifically for elites that live in city centers. Not a good thing imo.

I gotta think though, city dwellers with money will want multiple high end boutiques and expensive cinema grills at the least.
__________________
WATCH OUT!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 8:39 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 10,659
Yes, many malls are dying but I think the reason for this has not really been discussed. It's not like people today love dying of heat exposure, getting soaked in the rain, or freezing to death more than they did 30 or 40 years ago which was always the big draw to the mall...……….it allowed you to shop in a comfortable, climate controlled environment.

Much of the decline of malls has little to do with the malls themselves and everything to do with demographics. These malls were built to serve their communities and the shopping demographic near them. Now those 1970/80s suburbs have gone from Mom & Dad and 3 or 4 kids to suburb of retirees and the new families only have 1 kid. Malls thrive on discretionary spending power which the young parents and their kids once offered but now those discretionary shoppers are gone. This is why many malls are dead EXCEPT for the grocery store and pharmacy because no matter what your age, you always need those 2 basics.

The big box stores on the outer suburbs are simply doing what the malls did...……...following their shoppers. The thing that will give the big box outlets and "power centres" more longevity is that they are MUCH cheaper to build and have MUCH lower maintenance costs resulting in generally lower prices for their leases and hence for consumers.

It's not that the idea of shopping in a mall has become unappealing but rather that the shoppers that led to their rise have disappeared.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 9:41 PM
SpongeG's Avatar
SpongeG SpongeG is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 39,106
this mall when it opened was so hyped

Video Link


Video Link
__________________
belowitall
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 10:28 PM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin
Posts: 3,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Yes, many malls are dying but I think the reason for this has not really been discussed. It's not like people today love dying of heat exposure, getting soaked in the rain, or freezing to death more than they did 30 or 40 years ago which was always the big draw to the mall...……….it allowed you to shop in a comfortable, climate controlled environment.

Much of the decline of malls has little to do with the malls themselves and everything to do with demographics. These malls were built to serve their communities and the shopping demographic near them. Now those 1970/80s suburbs have gone from Mom & Dad and 3 or 4 kids to suburb of retirees and the new families only have 1 kid. Malls thrive on discretionary spending power which the young parents and their kids once offered but now those discretionary shoppers are gone. This is why many malls are dead EXCEPT for the grocery store and pharmacy because no matter what your age, you always need those 2 basics.

The big box stores on the outer suburbs are simply doing what the malls did...……...following their shoppers. The thing that will give the big box outlets and "power centres" more longevity is that they are MUCH cheaper to build and have MUCH lower maintenance costs resulting in generally lower prices for their leases and hence for consumers.

It's not that the idea of shopping in a mall has become unappealing but rather that the shoppers that led to their rise have disappeared.
UH, I think maybe online shopping (and the wealth of choices found therein) is the main culprit rather than changing demographics. I can go to a mall or big box store and maybe find what I am looking for and get the help I need to make the purchase, or I can go online where I am almost overwhelmed with choices in every style, size, and color for whatever item I need. Plus it gets delivered in a day or three. Increasingly, consumers opt for online shopping. I am not arguing that this is a good thing overall, but it is the future, like it or not.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 10:50 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 225
it's sad, but I don't blame anybody. I'm guilty. the last time I went to a mall urban or suburban was to fix an apple device and that took 3 weeks to get an appointment. I exclusively shop online for almost everything now.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 11:39 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,144
Urban malls will be dead soon if most aren't already.

They have been fighting against the internet now for two decades(sort of). Now they were shut down by the government while internet-based operations were free to operate. And add in this summer with many cities experiencing looting, again, no internet-based operations were impacted.

It's over for them. American cities are about to be even more boring than they already were. All we will be left with are the restaurants that survived lockdowns and salons and dry cleaners.

Yes, I am extremely pessimistic but I have my reasons. The last 7 months have severely impacted my view of the future of American cities. The gains of American urbanity over the last three decades is in fact very fragile. 2020 has done so much harm(government lockdowns, looting, people avoiding going out, increase online shopping, offices going to WFH models...).

This will kill our office markets.
Which will kill local businesses that tend to those workers.
Which will kill the local real estate markets that are geared towards people wanting easy commutes to their offices downtown.
Which will kill transit.

I just looked at a 44 story condo tower here in Chicago. There were 50 rentals listed. One apartment I looked at was listed for 2,400 in June, its now listed for 1800. A 2 bedroom on the 33rd floor in downtown Chicago, 1,800 dollars. One agent told me rentals are typically staying on the market for 8 months now. My school is all online now and my girlfriend's job is 100% online. So we could move to the exurbs and save thousands a year. Plenty of others will make moves like that. I am not, right now. The deals are too good to turn down.

I don't quite understand how so many people who love the urban environment are still so optimistic. I HOPE I AM WRONG. I hope I look so stupid and everyone can make fun of me in a year from now. But what I am seeing isn't looking good.

Last edited by jtown,man; Oct 27, 2020 at 8:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 12:28 AM
RudyJK RudyJK is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Urban malls will be dead soon if most aren't already.

They have been fighting against the internet now for two decades(sort of). Now they were shut down by the government while internet-based operations were free to operate. And add in this summer with many cities experiencing looting, again, no internet-based operations were impacted.

It's over for them. American cities are about to be even more boring than they already were. All we will be left with are the restaurants that survived lockdowns and salons and dry cleaners.

Yes, I am extremely pessimistic but I have my reasons. The last 7 months have severely impacted my view of the future of American cities. The gains of American urbanity over the last three decades is in fact very fragile. 2020 has done so much harm(government lockdowns, looting, people avoiding going out, increase online shopping, offices going to WFH models...).

This will kill our office markets.
Which will kill local businesses that tend to those workers.
Which will kill the local real estate markets that are geared towards people wanting easy commutes to their offices downtown.
Which will kill transit.

I just looked at a 44 story condo tower here in Chicago. There were 50 rentals listed. One apartment I looked at was listed for 2,400 in June, its not listed for 1800. A 2 bedroom on the 33rd floor in downtown Chicago, 1,800 dollars. One agent told me rentals are typically staying on the market for 8 months now. My school is all online now and my girlfriend's job is 100% online. So we could move to the exurbs and save thousands a year. Plenty of others will make moves like that. I am not, right now. The deals are too good to turn down.

I don't quite understand how so many people who love the urban environment are still so optimistic. I HOPE I AM WRONG. I hope I look so stupid and everyone can make fun of me in a year from now. But what I am seeing isn't looking good.
Agree with you totally.

There is a callous ghoulishness to SSC threads like these that 'observe' the demise of a chunk of society like this.

'Take pictures of dead malls! Fun!'

'Graffiti on once-thriving, now looted store fronts is awesome...because of the spray painted messages of justice and positivity. So cool!'

Amazon wins. culturally and aesthetically. And the ersatz urbanites cheer it on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 12:40 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
cle/west village/shaolin
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,589
in the 1970s, the height of the malls era, randall park mall in suburban cleveland was the largest mall in the country for awhile, until the mall of america opened.

it was gradually abandoned and ironically now amazon is on the site.



Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 12:49 AM
RudyJK RudyJK is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
in the 1970s, the height of the malls era, randall park mall in suburban cleveland was the largest mall in the country for awhile, until the mall of america opened.

it was gradually abandoned and ironically now amazon is on the site.



There is more architectural interest in both of those photos than anything 'dear leader' Bezos could ever to hope for in his dreary click-and-shop life.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 1:13 AM
ocman ocman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Burlingame
Posts: 2,687
I Amazon everything nowadays, but I’m getting fed up with the site being 90% cheap Chinese crap. 10 of the exact same product all with different chinese branding. The same day deliver is consistently never same day anymore. I feel people growing tired of this model too. So what’s next?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 1:52 AM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is offline
NYC/NJ/Miami-Dade
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Riverview Estates Fairway (PA)
Posts: 45,696
I still prefer malls for clothing.

Clothing is one of those things that I need to try prior to order unless its maybe a scarf or a hat.

Its not really the dying malls or even strip malls that are the plague for the urban fabric of cities but the lagging of actual stores. The mom and pops that make some places unique.

Those need to flourish. Add some variety to life.

IDK, I don't mind malls. It gets people out of the house, and walking as opposed to growing the mass of protoplasm in your stomach by sitting at ones desk clicking on Amazon for cheap Chinese goods. Helps folks get some vitamin D via sunlight.

Plus it gives the young kin of suburban America somewhere to hang out and meet girls with lip piercings. Teens need somewhere to be teens, and the mall is where bored suburban kids go to meet folks and make weed connects. And so... malls help our kids!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 2:54 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
Every time I see a pic of an empty mall, especially the multi-level open rotunda layouts popular in the 80s, I think how it would make for an amazing paint ball arena.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 3:57 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin
Posts: 3,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Urban malls will be dead soon if most aren't already.

They have been fighting against the internet now for two decades(sort of). Now they were shut down by the government while internet-based operations were free to operate. And add in this summer with many cities experiencing looting, again, no internet-based operations were impacted.

It's over for them. American cities are about to be even more boring than they already were. All we will be left with are the restaurants that survived lockdowns and salons and dry cleaners.

Yes, I am extremely pessimistic but I have my reasons. The last 7 months have severely impacted my view of the future of American cities. The gains of American urbanity over the last three decades is in fact very fragile. 2020 has done so much harm(government lockdowns, looting, people avoiding going out, increase online shopping, offices going to WFH models...).

This will kill our office markets.
Which will kill local businesses that tend to those workers.
Which will kill the local real estate markets that are geared towards people wanting easy commutes to their offices downtown.
Which will kill transit.

I just looked at a 44 story condo tower here in Chicago. There were 50 rentals listed. One apartment I looked at was listed for 2,400 in June, its not listed for 1800. A 2 bedroom on the 33rd floor in downtown Chicago, 1,800 dollars. One agent told me rentals are typically staying on the market for 8 months now. My school is all online now and my girlfriend's job is 100% online. So we could move to the exurbs and save thousands a year. Plenty of others will make moves like that. I am not, right now. The deals are too good to turn down.

I don't quite understand how so many people who love the urban environment are still so optimistic. I HOPE I AM WRONG. I hope I look so stupid and everyone can make fun of me in a year from now. But what I am seeing isn't looking good.
I also sadly agree with your post. I'm not sure we are witnessing the death knell of urban America, but it is going to be a long slog back to anything resembling normal. I live in a city (Austin) where there is an amazing amount of office, hotel, and residential highrise/midrise construction underway. As a result, there is near euphoric posting on the Austin forum from delighted local residents. I pretty much keep my mouth shut, but I just don't see the present boom in my city being absorbed any time in the next several years. There are going to be a lot of empty office buildings, hotel rooms, and probably condo/rental towers as well. WFH is for real and will take a huge toll on future office leasing. The communal workspace also seems to be dead in the water for now. The convention and tourism industry is in tatters. Hundreds of small businesses are closing or on life support. The club, bar, and restaurant scene is a shadow of its former self, which makes living in the center of the city or visiting the city that much less enticing. Who knows, it might be enough to make Austin truly "weird" again somewhere down the road. I guess the club and bar scene will make a comeback. Musicians might be able to afford to live here again. Ditto for other creative types. Gotta look for that silver lining.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 2:36 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Every time I see a pic of an empty mall, especially the multi-level open rotunda layouts popular in the 80s, I think how it would make for an amazing paint ball arena.
I'm old enough to remember when paintball arenas were created out of abandoned factories. Now we're talking about creating them out of abandoned malls, lol.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 10:07 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 10,659
I think many downtowns will actually, over the long-term, be better off due to COVID and the rise of Amazon.

Amazon is a real threat to the viability of malls and big box stores because nearly everything you can get in those centres you can get on Amazon..............in other words they are competition. This is quite unlike downtown stores that offer the items, services, and entertainment that you can't get in the malls, big boxes, or online........they AREN'T competition.

Many people still go the malls for "something to do" and as they not-so-slowly disappear from the urban landscape due to online purchasing, people will need to go other places to their pastimes and downtowns and inner city neighbourhoods will be the only options still standing.

We are seeing this in Canadians cities and even smaller and mid-size ones.............the malls are dying, big boxes are suffering, and yet downtowns are seeing a real rennaisance of not just more goods and services but also soaring populations.

What will make this transition more difficult in the US however is that many of the downtowns are crime ridden and don't offer the effective transit systems needed to get people there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 12:41 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
Unicorn Wizard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,204
To be fair, suburban malls always were meant to be experiential. I don't think downtown retail has an edge on that. In Houston, at least pre-Covid, the mall situation has been pretty static for like 20 years. All the malls that were nice back in like 1998 are still nice, and the malls that were on the decline then are dead now. Over the last few years there's been an increase in places that are essentially mall-like without being called them - various food halls, mixed use centers, etc. I think people will want to go out when this is over and things will want to gradually come back. Maybe following some mass bankruptcies and store closures the market won't be as overbuilt and crowded for retail.

Honestly I think urban or downtown mall retail was always shaky in cities that weren't NYC or Chicago. In cities with a lot of urban infill the total number of new downtown residents is still what, like 20-30 thousand more than in the year 2000? That's enough to assume a grocery store, a diverse range of small service oriented businesses, restaurants, and maybe some urban format big box, but it would hardly support a destination retail mall. I don't think people really want to go downtown for that in a city like Austin. Downtowns aren't going to die out again, because they'll still have a role for entertainment, government buildings, etc and people want to live centrally.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 12:46 AM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Every time I see a pic of an empty mall, especially the multi-level open rotunda layouts popular in the 80s, I think how it would make for an amazing paint ball arena.
It would be! my first pb gun was a spyder. remember those kits? then I upgraded to a mini mag with a 16 oz tank, upgraded the barrel for better accuracy. my bother went extreme and got the shocker with the adjustable nitro psi twistable knob.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 12:45 PM
glowrock's Avatar
glowrock glowrock is offline
Becoming Chicago-fied!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago (West Avondale)
Posts: 19,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocman View Post
I Amazon everything nowadays, but I’m getting fed up with the site being 90% cheap Chinese crap. 10 of the exact same product all with different chinese branding. The same day deliver is consistently never same day anymore. I feel people growing tired of this model too. So what’s next?
Quoted for truth. So much garbage on Amazon, so many sponsored Chinese/Korean knockoffs. Almost impossible to determine real from fake nowadays, plus shipping is rarely anywhere near as fast as promised. It's getting closer to finding a needle in a haystack to find what you're looking for nowadays!

Aaron (Glowrock)
__________________
"Deeply corrupt but still semi-functional - it's the Chicago way." -- Barrelfish
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:00 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.