Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jimj_wpg

Transit Union asks Winnipeg bus riders to speak up

Interesting. I don't know that the City will be in a position to really upgrade transit services to the far reaches of suburbia where ridership is comparatively low, but I do agree that frequencies could be improved, especially on evenings and weekends. Sundays in particular are still treated by transit as if it were still 1982, everything is closed, and everybody stays home. I've seen some pretty packed buses on Sundays.

[cllew]

Chicken and egg syndrome. Friends of mine live in Royalwood and would take the bus more (or at least their university aged kids would) if there was better service. With no bus service during the day they either drive or have somebody pick them up. Once they get use to not being on the bus its hard to get them back,

[Wpg transit 163-1]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting. I don't know that the City will be in a position to really upgrade transit services to the far reaches of suburbia where ridership is comparatively low, but I do agree that frequencies could be improved, especially on evenings and weekends. Sundays in particular are still treated by transit as if it were still 1982, everything is closed, and everybody stays home. I've seen some pretty packed buses on Sundays.

won't be till at least 2016 till they have enough buses to expand service in the suburbs. A transit planner told me this.

[buzzg]

I'd much rather see core area/services improved like Sundays and evenings, and load/unload times shortened with proper 21st century bus passes than see service go out to the perimeter. Sorry, you chose to live somewhere with poor bus service.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I'd much rather see core area/services improved like Sundays and evenings, and load/unload times shortened with proper 21st century bus passes than see service go out to the perimeter. Sorry, you chose to live somewhere with poor bus service.

This. The core routes are busy off hours. You could get something great going with more frequency.

[camzmac]

I'm out of the city this week, but I saw on the news there was a lot of flooding around the city, including under the Jubilee underpass. Curious to know whether the transitway tunnel flooded too? Were buses delayed, or did transitway's pumping station hold its own against the onslaught of rain? Thanks!

[Wpg transit 163-1]

bus stop upgrades coming for fort richmond waverley heights and richmond west. this will enable transit to run bendy buses on routes 137, 162 and 183. more info on city of Winnipeg bid page.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by Wpg transit 163-1

bus stop upgrades coming for fort richmond waverley heights and richmond west. this will enable transit to run bendy buses on routes 137, 162 and 183. more info on city of Winnipeg bid page.

Wait, so you can run bendy buses on the transitway? For some reason I thought I had heard that they couldn't make the turns from Jubilee SB to Pembina getting off the transitway (or something like that).

[Wpg transit 163-1]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Wait, so you can run bendy buses on the transitway? For some reason I thought I had heard that they couldn't make the turns from Jubilee SB to Pembina getting off the transitway (or something like that).

nope they use the transitway during dead heads. and they had it on a 183 in the winter and on the 162 also during the winter. there only now using them on 162 and 183 as these buses are full and passing people up.

[FFX-ME]

Reading Winnipeg's transit plans and these discussions people often mention Ottawa as a successful bus-based rapid transit system but as someone from Ittawa it is widely accepted that BRT was a mistake. When cities of similar size (as Winnipeg is now) were building LRT systems Ottawa went for BRT, the more expensive to operate and least long lasting option. Now the whole system is being replaced by rail.

Ottawa isn't a successful BRT story. It is a failed experiment and Winnipeg shouldn't try to emulate it.

[Wpg transit 163-1]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Reading Winnipeg's transit plans and these discussions people often mention Ottawa as a successful bus-based rapid transit system but as someone from Ittawa it is widely accepted that BRT was a mistake. When cities of similar size (as Winnipeg is now) were building LRT systems Ottawa went for BRT, the more expensive to operate and least long lasting option. Now the whole system is being replaced by rail.

Ottawa isn't a successful BRT story. It is a failed experiment and Winnipeg shouldn't try to emulate it.

BRT is what winnipeg needs nobody will want to take a train from our downtown only to transfer to a bus for the last part of the ride home. most people enjoy the one bus to downtown route of our BRT.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Reading Winnipeg's transit plans and these discussions people often mention Ottawa as a successful bus-based rapid transit system but as someone from Ittawa it is widely accepted that BRT was a mistake. When cities of similar size (as Winnipeg is now) were building LRT systems Ottawa went for BRT, the more expensive to operate and least long lasting option. Now the whole system is being replaced by rail.

Ottawa isn't a successful BRT story. It is a failed experiment and Winnipeg shouldn't try to emulate it.

Thanks for the input. BRT is not always the panacea that some seem to think it is! It's a start in the right direction with many shortcomings!

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Reading Winnipeg's transit plans and these discussions people often mention Ottawa as a successful bus-based rapid transit system but as someone from Ittawa it is widely accepted that BRT was a mistake. When cities of similar size (as Winnipeg is now) were building LRT systems Ottawa went for BRT, the more expensive to operate and least long lasting option. Now the whole system is being replaced by rail.

Ottawa isn't a successful BRT story. It is a failed experiment and Winnipeg shouldn't try to emulate it.

This could also be framed as "BRT is such a success in Ottawa that we already need to upgrade.". Not that I would be against Winnipeg getting LRT instead of BRT.

[drew]

Winnipeggers would love the idea of LRT, but would never accept the price tag.

To me, if nothing else, BRT is necessary to show the general population that efficient rapid transit is not only required, but beneficial to the City.

After that, we start looking seriously at an LRT upgrade, complete with at grade street cars in the downtown core to keep those road destroying buses away (my dream...)

[MalcolmTucker]

Under the new public transit fund, projects need a minimum of $1 billion in total estimated eligible costs to be eligible for this different pot of money.

I think this will likely be a super significant motivator for building either a full network all at once, or going with more expensive options.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Winnipeggers would love the idea of LRT, but would never accept the price tag.

To me, if nothing else, BRT is necessary to show the general population that efficient rapid transit is not only required, but beneficial to the City.

After that, we start looking seriously at an LRT upgrade, complete with at grade street cars in the downtown core to keep those road destroying buses away (my dream...)

The nice thing about BRT is that it gets the city into the practice of planning around rapid transit corridors as well as land acquisition for BRT routes that can one day be converted to LRT when the need eventually arises.

Personally, I'm not that hung up on BRT vs. LRT. A well run BRT system with high frequency service is just as good for Winnipeg as LRT... the only thing that BRT doesn't offer is the large capacity that LRT does, but even then it would be years before Winnipeg really needed the capacity that LRT delivers.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by esquire

the only thing that BRT doesn't offer is the large capacity that LRT does, but even then it would be years before Winnipeg really needed the capacity that LRT delivers.

Capacity is the most quantifiable difference, but it's not the only difference -- LRT offers a much quieter and more comfortable ride and can attract people who wouldn't consider taking a bus. Gliding along in a streetcar just feels inherently more dignified than getting bounced around in a roaring, swerving bus. That said, I agree that BRT makes the most sense for Winnipeg right now, especially in a corridor with lots of branches like the SW line.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Capacity is the most quantifiable difference, but it's not the only difference -- LRT offers a much quieter and more comfortable ride and can attract people who wouldn't consider taking a bus. Gliding along in a streetcar just feels inherently more dignified than getting bounced around in a roaring, swerving bus. That said, I agree that BRT makes the most sense for Winnipeg right now, especially in a corridor with lots of branches like the SW line.

Cleveland and Buffalo both come to mind as examples of LRT that were unsuccessful and would probably have been better as BRT systems.

Like Winnipeg, they had low levels of road congestion, relatively few existing transit commuters, spread out populations, a sparsely-populated downtown core with lots of cheap parking, cold winters, and fairly flat population growth.

In both, usage was pretty anemic, TOD never materialized, etc.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Cleveland and Buffalo both come to mind as examples of LRT that were unsuccessful and would probably have been better as BRT systems.

Like Winnipeg, they had low levels of road congestion, relatively few existing transit commuters, spread out populations, a sparsely-populated downtown core with lots of cheap parking, cold winters, and fairly flat population growth.

In both, usage was pretty anemic, TOD never materialized, etc.

That's the thing about TOD. It rarely materializes. Instead of making a bet on the more unlikely scenario, why not make the bet on the sure thing where population densities already exist? This also goes for the payment plan. If this were ever presented truthfully, there would be no claims of future TOD paying the freight given that's almost assuredly never happening. Instead, the city is going to have to dig into the budget - or raise taxes on existing properties - to come up with the payments. And if that's the mandate of the people, than so be it. Except that this was sold as essentially being a free lunch because the positive economic contributions of TOD have been heavily overstated.

[Simplicity]

Bahaha! So it turns out there's no actual cost study or feasibility analysis for a comparison between running the BRT routes down the Letellier line or through the Parker Lands. It doesn't exist because it didn't happen.

I remember a lot of people around here claiming that the Parker line was the more cost feasible because of all the expropriations necessary. They said it would be cheaper to run a longer line through areas that required more remediation simply because of this.

Nobody knows anything.