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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 1:00 AM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Originally Posted by WharfRat View Post
I am sure Mr Bezanson is feeling the weight of his decision to oppose this development, the backlash has been fast and furious it seems. My FB is plastered with "I support the Irving HO" memes..lol

http://country94.ca/news/1285327379/...-irving-oil-hq
http://country94.ca/news/225493677/i...t-officer-says
http://country94.ca/news/993204695/l...rving-hq-delay
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ters-1.3519826
http://huddle.today/irving-oil-hq-on-hold/

pressure is mounting
The simplest answer is for him to recognize the will of the people and withdraw his appeal.
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 1:24 AM
WharfRat WharfRat is offline
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Well apparently he has purposed an alternative solution he believes is a win/win for everyone. He is against the height of the building and the set back, so I would image his proposal is for a shorter building with a larger foot print but I can not find any information on it.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 4:39 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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I see Bob Boyce was having lunch with Bezanson in the Market today - hopefully they are sorting this out and the appeal will be withdrawn??
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 7:05 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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I understand that unless this appeal is withdrawn a solution is at least 3 months away....very sad day for Saint John. The impact to the City not to mention the "trades" will be huge. I guess it's "pure heritage at any cost".
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 7:12 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by UptownJeff View Post
I understand that unless this appeal is withdrawn a solution is at least 3 months away....very sad day for Saint John. The impact to the City not to mention the "trades" will be huge. I guess it's "pure heritage at any cost".
These sorts of delays are expected on larger projects. There's no need to start playing small violins.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 10:47 PM
WharfRat WharfRat is offline
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Originally Posted by UptownJeff View Post
I understand that unless this appeal is withdrawn a solution is at least 3 months away....very sad day for Saint John. The impact to the City not to mention the "trades" will be huge. I guess it's "pure heritage at any cost".
It is very disheartening for sure, considering they were planning on starting yesterday!

Common council has called a special meeting to discuss the options for this coming Monday and Saint John realtor Bob McVicar has launched a petition asking that the chair of the Planning Appeal Board deal with this appeal immediately.

https://www.change.org/p/chairperson...fb_ref=Default

So the pressure to move this along is building.
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 11:02 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
These sorts of delays are expected on larger projects. There's no need to start playing small violins.
While I do agree that in all likelihood this will move forward, we are dealing with a privately owned company and a city that has been plagued by disappointment. It's about time that the silent majority spoke up loudly to say we are open for business. The rally and petition will send a strong message to business and will give us citizens a much needed shot in the arm.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 12:48 PM
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kwajo kwajo is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
These sorts of delays are expected on larger projects. There's no need to start playing small violins.
I agree. Frankly the original timeline put out by Irving Oil was incredibly optimistic (you can see my comments to that point further back on this forum), for a project in any city not just Saint John. The fact that they went public with a design only a month and a half or two before they wanted to start construction, and did very little pre-design public consultation left the door open for complications like this. I still think it will go ahead - and it should - but we're seeing a pretty normal project plot as far as I am concerned.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 12:58 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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I agree. Frankly the original timeline put out by Irving Oil was incredibly optimistic (you can see my comments to that point further back on this forum), for a project in any city not just Saint John. The fact that they went public with a design only a month and a half or two before they wanted to start construction, and did very little pre-design public consultation left the door open for complications like this. I still think it will go ahead - and it should - but we're seeing a pretty normal project plot as far as I am concerned.
This whole mess has done 2 very important things in my opinion. It has rallied the citizens around a common goal and it has exposed flaws in our heritage bylaws. Heritage in a city like ours must be more pragmatic - as the rules exist now, most people cannot afford to do the exacting work required; so they do nothing. A crumbling, decaying stock of buildings serves no one!
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UptownJeff View Post
While I do agree that in all likelihood this will move forward, we are dealing with a privately owned company and a city that has been plagued by disappointment. It's about time that the silent majority spoke up loudly to say we are open for business. The rally and petition will send a strong message to business and will give us citizens a much needed shot in the arm.
This isn't some private company from afar that hasn't had dealings with New Brunswick and Saint John before. You're speaking about the private company that effectively owns the city and province, for all intents and purposes. They already know what they're dealing with.

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Originally Posted by UptownJeff View Post
This whole mess has done 2 very important things in my opinion. It has rallied the citizens around a common goal and it has exposed flaws in our heritage bylaws. Heritage in a city like ours must be more pragmatic - as the rules exist now, most people cannot afford to do the exacting work required; so they do nothing. A crumbling, decaying stock of buildings serves no one!
Flaws in the heritage bylaws were already known when owners of residential properties couldn't repaint their buildings without applying to do so. Windows, roofs, all had similar issues.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the project but I never thought i'd see the day where citizens would be rallying and signing petitions for Irving. This is the same company that took massive advantage of the city via the tax break at LNG, the same company that thought they could build a statue of their CEO in an historic graveyard, the same company that routinely fleeces and bullies their way through the local and regional economy with no respect or regard for competition; and now you're rallying for their cause? I appreciate their importance to the city but this all seems a bit dramatic to me. They don't need your support; they'll do whatever they please with or without it, and they have a track record of doing so.

NBers and SJers need to get over this silver bullet notion that a single project is going to rejuvenate everything. Big projects help, but lots of smaller projects help, too, and creating the necessary environment through strong local and provincial legislation to do so is more important than large brick and mortar projects, IMO. Uptown has seen a large revival of sorts in the past five years and that has had nothing to do with Irving's new HQ development.

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Originally Posted by kwajo View Post
I agree. Frankly the original timeline put out by Irving Oil was incredibly optimistic (you can see my comments to that point further back on this forum), for a project in any city not just Saint John. The fact that they went public with a design only a month and a half or two before they wanted to start construction, and did very little pre-design public consultation left the door open for complications like this. I still think it will go ahead - and it should - but we're seeing a pretty normal project plot as far as I am concerned.
The entire timeline reeked of a company that knew they could get whatever they wanted and could rush and breeze through any process or hurdle. It's true that they can because the City is in no position to turn down large-scale developments (unless you're building an eco-mall in a flood plain), but to come in so ham-fisted expecting everyone to bow down to your proposal is tedious at best.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 3:25 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
This isn't some private company from afar that hasn't had dealings with New Brunswick and Saint John before. You're speaking about the private company that effectively owns the city and province, for all intents and purposes. They already know what they're dealing with.



Flaws in the heritage bylaws were already known when owners of residential properties couldn't repaint their buildings without applying to do so. Windows, roofs, all had similar issues.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the project but I never thought i'd see the day where citizens would be rallying and signing petitions for Irving. This is the same company that took massive advantage of the city via the tax break at LNG, the same company that thought they could build a statue of their CEO in an historic graveyard, the same company that routinely fleeces and bullies their way through the local and regional economy with no respect or regard for competition; and now you're rallying for their cause? I appreciate their importance to the city but this all seems a bit dramatic to me. They don't need your support; they'll do whatever they please with or without it, and they have a track record of doing so.

NBers and SJers need to get over this silver bullet notion that a single project is going to rejuvenate everything. Big projects help, but lots of smaller projects help, too, and creating the necessary environment through strong local and provincial legislation to do so is more important than large brick and mortar projects, IMO. Uptown has seen a large revival of sorts in the past five years and that has had nothing to do with Irving's new HQ development.


The entire timeline reeked of a company that knew they could get whatever they wanted and could rush and breeze through any process or hurdle. It's true that they can because the City is in no position to turn down large-scale developments (unless you're building an eco-mall in a flood plain), but to come in so ham-fisted expecting everyone to bow down to your proposal is tedious at best.
I'm certainly not about to get into a debate on the issues surrounding this organization - love 'em or hate 'em - they're here and willing to spend millions on a project that in my opinion, will have a significant impact on our city. I see you are in Ottawa; well, I'm here, work here and live here every day and I have said it before and I will say it again, these boards should not be a pulpit for bashing any company nor do I think it should be a "love in" either. I don't care whether it's Irving, Walmart, Lowe's or Joe's Sandwich Shop, if you want to spend that much money and employ that many people; then bring it on!

I also believe this is much bigger than Irving - again, in my opinion, as I mentioned earlier, we have been plagued by numerous disappointments over the years - this, combined with a souring economy and growing taxes has pushed Saint Johners to the breaking point - dramatic? maybe a bit but as the famous speech ended in the movie Network....."I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore". We need a rallying point and this appears to be it. GOOD! It's about time. Let's send a message to government and to industry....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

Last edited by UptownJeff; Apr 6, 2016 at 3:48 PM.
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UptownJeff View Post
I'm certainly not about to get into a debate on the issues surrounding this organization - love 'em or hate 'em - they're here and willing to spend millions on a project that in my opinion, will have a significant impact on our city. I see you are in Ottawa; well, I'm here, work here and live here every day and I have said it before and I will say it again, these boards should not be a pulpit for bashing any company nor do I think it should be a "love in" either. I don't care whether it's Irving, Walmart, Lowe's or Joe's Sandwich Shop, if you want to spend that much money and employ that many people; then bring it on!
This must be the welcoming Maritime attitude that we pride ourselves on.

Born, raised, and spent 22 years in Saint John. Doubt my opinion on this matter and you may as well doubt anyone else's. I'm more engrained in SJ despite being a two hour flight, twelve hour drive, and one time zone away than you may think, and routinely travel to SJ. This isn't about where I am located, and if that's the best you can use as a retort then your argument is weak indeed. Besides, the company you're supporting in this thread as putting money into the local economy has no issue with hiring the best talent from outside of the region, and that includes Ottawa.

I haven't bashed Irving or anyone else in my posts, i'm merely stating that i'm not about to jump over the moon because they're promising development money to the City. Irving does a lot of great things for the City as well as many not so great things. This is more about following the natural process of a large-scale development, and people should be hesitant to want to push forward a million dollar project without first going through the proper processes. I believe the last time the City did that they ended up getting shorted on LNG. This current council, thankfully, don't get spooked too quickly and are willing to pause and wait for things to take their course.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 5:54 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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This must be the welcoming Maritime attitude that we pride ourselves on.

Born, raised, and spent 22 years in Saint John. Doubt my opinion on this matter and you may as well doubt anyone else's. I'm more engrained in SJ despite being a two hour flight, twelve hour drive, and one time zone away than you may think, and routinely travel to SJ. This isn't about where I am located, and if that's the best you can use as a retort then your argument is weak indeed. Besides, the company you're supporting in this thread as putting money into the local economy has no issue with hiring the best talent from outside of the region, and that includes Ottawa.

I haven't bashed Irving or anyone else in my posts, i'm merely stating that i'm not about to jump over the moon because they're promising development money to the City. Irving does a lot of great things for the City as well as many not so great things. This is more about following the natural process of a large-scale development, and people should be hesitant to want to push forward a million dollar project without first going through the proper processes. I believe the last time the City did that they ended up getting shorted on LNG. This current council, thankfully, don't get spooked too quickly and are willing to pause and wait for things to take their course.
It looks like you've sensed my frustration! I apologize for any offence but as a person who moved here 10 years ago it has been one piece of bad news after the other. We need some good news but more importantly we need the attitude of the City to change (in my opinion). I'm not naive - I know we can't whistle our way to happiness but we need a "can do" attitude. If I have learned anything by living here in Saint John is that the typical response to pretty much any proposal is "the problem with that" or "we can't do that because". As I'm sure you can imagine - very frustrating. I have a vested interest in seeing this City prosper - I'm here for the long haul and only plan on leaving in a box! I am hopeful that at the very least, the rally and petition will give us that "can do" attitude.....here's hoping!
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 6:34 PM
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Do you think Irving would consider funding some sort of improvement to the heritage area (infrastructure, help restore a small building desperately in need, etc) as a tradeoff for asking for a exception to the rules?

That said I think the design is a decent compromise, it's a 'classic' look, but a classic look of a different era than the Uptown, so distinct from the actual heritage, but not jarringly different.
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 6:45 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Do you think Irving would consider funding some sort of improvement to the heritage area (infrastructure, help restore a small building desperately in need, etc) as a tradeoff for asking for a exception to the rules?

That said I think the design is a decent compromise, it's a 'classic' look, but a classic look of a different era than the Uptown, so distinct from the actual heritage, but not jarringly different.
Interesting comment but the way the bylaws are written and the appeal process etc I don't even think this would be an option....but I like it! It would be my guess that they will likely contribute in many ways to their surroundings once this is built!
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 7:54 PM
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Hey I'm just a Westie here (who supports all development in Canada) to put in my two cents...

From what I understand about the politics of this project, this silent majority needs to speak up. It is a beautifully designed building and you need to make your voice heard. It doesn't seem like this kind of a job creating opportunity for Saint John comes around everyday and if you guys don't take them up on this development then they will probably take their business elsewhere. I would hate to see you guys lose out on development that is going to create jobs. Don't be afraid to protest for the project, we live in a country where protesting can be executed safely and effectively.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 8:21 PM
magee_b magee_b is offline
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I'm not sure I understand what any protest can be directed at though... The project seems to have gone through the proper channels so far (albeit seemingly rather quickly)... People seem to have suddenly forgot that this WAS approved by council and approved by the heritage board - even though it doesn't exactly meet their variances, they felt it acceptable enough to approve it.

Then one person has decided he is not happy with how the process went, and is appealing to a higher board to have a look at it. That's it.

Let's let the process unfold as it should, and not let all the media hype make it seem like it's needing a public outcry of support or it's going to fail.

I'm saying this as someone who supports this development. I just also realize that any potential delay is being played up more in the media than any other project would be (since we all know who owns the papers around here).
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 10:43 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Originally Posted by magee_b View Post
I'm not sure I understand what any protest can be directed at though... The project seems to have gone through the proper channels so far (albeit seemingly rather quickly)... People seem to have suddenly forgot that this WAS approved by council and approved by the heritage board - even though it doesn't exactly meet their variances, they felt it acceptable enough to approve it.

Then one person has decided he is not happy with how the process went, and is appealing to a higher board to have a look at it. That's it.

Let's let the process unfold as it should, and not let all the media hype make it seem like it's needing a public outcry of support or it's going to fail.

I'm saying this as someone who supports this development. I just also realize that any potential delay is being played up more in the media than any other project would be (since we all know who owns the papers around here).
You are correct. It went through all the proper channels and this gentleman is well within his rights to appeal. The issue is when will the appeal be dealt with. As I understand it, there is a huge backlog in appeals as the same board also hears all tax assessment appeals as well. The petition is merely to ask the board to put priority on this request...not to change it etc. Just to give it priority.

As I have said before the rally and public outcry is an effort to show that we are "open for development" and in my opinion is long overdue. We have had far too many disappointments in recent years and this may be the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back.
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 11:04 PM
UptownJeff UptownJeff is offline
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Just reported in the TJ that the appeals board has requested some documentation from the city and the heritage board concerning the decision. Looks like this is getting some attention in Fredericton. Let's hope for a speedy resolution.
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