The NHL is coming closer to Quebec City

[Djeffery]

The problem with Vancouver is Seattle. I think the NBA wants Seattle back more than it wants Vancouver, but I don't think they do both. If they do a 2 team expansion, I see it being Seattle and Vegas.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I don't disagree with this at large, but my point was not to start another CFL/MLS circlejerk. I don't think it's possible to make a financial evaluation of the sports market in Canada without including the CFL teams in their respective markets, because they do take up market share. You get false data if you ignore the CFL, obviously in places like Saskatchewan and Winnipeg, but also in Montreal where the gap between fan dollars spent on the Impact and Als is likely not significant.

Can't argue with that. Like it or not, the CFL has a significant presence in its markets and nationally. It is absurd to say that CF Montreal counts as a second pro team in Montreal but the Als do not on the basis of franchise value or whatever. On average, a MLS team is far closer to a CFL team when it comes to revenue than it is to a NBA team, let alone a NFL team.

[Acajack]

Viewing the MLS as big time and the CFL as (comparatively) small time is at least partly about those "coloured lights that hypnotize" when it comes to anything from the US.

Yes, the MLS has more teams and a richer TV contract, but I would argue quite strongly that in terms of product on the field, the CFL is a higher calibre of gridiron football than the MLS is of soccer (association football).

The CFL is the second-best pro gridiron league in the world. It's not even close to the NFL but I'd argue it's a helluva lot closer than MLS is to the EPL, the Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga.

MLS is what, the 15th best soccer league in the world? Someday it might be a top-level league by global standards. Actually I would be surprised if that didn't happen eventually. But it's not at all close to that yet.

Now, the counter-argument to the CFL being 2nd-best in the world is that "of course, it's number 2, there aren't any others!".

It's a point worth examining, and while not exactly true... sure there is very little competition for 2nd spot among pro gridiron football leagues.

But the argument that the CFL is a better league in its sport still holds water because of the huge number of pretty darn good gridiron football players that get churned out each year by the US college system, and the dearth of places they can play professionally.

There are 130 college football programs in the top level of NCAA alone. With between 65-85 players per squad. (NCAA teams have more players than pro teams.) And there are hundreds more programs at lower levels that still produce good players.

The NFL has just over 1500 player jobs.

So lots of very good talent doesn't end up playing in the NFL.

The global soccer player production machine churns out even more players obviously, but the club options for good players are also exponentially greater, with several dozens of countries having at least half-decent national leagues.

[JHikka]

By that measure the NLL has them both beat because it's the best professional lacrosse league in the world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

By that measure the NLL has them both beat because it's the best professional lacrosse league in the world.

Yup!

[Acajack]

If you're a lacrosse fan there is no quality-related reason for you NOT to follow the NLL.

If you are a gridiron football fan there is no quality-related reason for you NOT to follow the CFL.

At least, there is certainly less reason NOT to follow these two leagues than there is if you're a soccer fan when it comes to following MLS.

[esquire]

Harrumph, I only follow leagues that meet my personal benchmarks for year over year growth in franchise value.

[JHikka]

It's weird that CASCAR isn't followed by more Canadians given that it serves as the second-best stock car racing league in the world. I think we're underrating it.

[Acajack]

In spite of all the snarky rhetoric to the contrary, going from CFL fandom to MLS fandom isn't really "trading up".

And I actually like MLS BTW. It's the best, most viable and durable attempt at a decent pro soccer in North America that I've seen in my lifetime.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's weird that CASCAR isn't followed by more Canadians given that it serves as the second-best stock car racing league in the world. I think we're underrating it.

If they put an event in Winnipeg I 100% guarantee that I'll go.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Acajack

MLS is what, the 15th best soccer league in the world? Someday it might be a top-level league by global standards. Actually I would be surprised if that didn't happen eventually. But it's not at all close to that yet.

Actually, it's more around #10. The following articles seem to agree.

First link rates them based on TV views/popularity, the presence of top players, social media buzz generated from league games, and the success of clubs from these leagues in various continental tournaments.

Second link uses goals per game, red cards per game, continental victories and point differential from first to last. (More statistical in nature, which is explained by the Ukrainian premier league placing at #4 ! But you get the idea.)

https://sportytell.com/soccer/best-s...leagues-world/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...otball-leagues

By revenue, they are already in the top 10 as well. So considering the number of soccer leagues around the world, I would definitely say they are a top league by global standards.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Now, the counter-argument to the CFL being 2nd-best in the world is that "of course, it's number 2, there aren't any others!".

Exactly. The rest are pretty much irrelevant.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The CFL is the second-best pro gridiron league in the world. It's not even close to the NFL but I'd argue it's a helluva lot closer than MLS is to the EPL, the Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga.



Now, the counter-argument to the CFL being 2nd-best in the world is that "of course, it's number 2, there aren't any others!".

2 years ago, Randy Ambrosie, CFL Commissioner, gave a speech to my employer's annual meeting. In it, he said something along the lines of "We don't look at ourselves as #2 to the NFL, but #1 of the other 49 leagues out there". I don't know if there actually are 50 pro football leagues in the world, but I thought that was a good statement.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Exactly. The rest are pretty much irrelevant.

There have been many other leagues in the US, and they have all gone by the boards while the CFL hasn't (knock on wood). So in that sense it definitely has a staying power that even well-funded Americans have been unable to match in their huge football market.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

2 years ago, Randy Ambrosie, CFL Commissioner, gave a speech to my employer's annual meeting. In it, he said something along the lines of "We don't look at ourselves as #2 to the NFL, but #1 of the other 49 leagues out there". I don't know if there actually are 50 pro football leagues in the world, but I thought that was a good statement.

If there are it seems like it's his personal goal to go meet and greet each and every one of them. I don't know how many of them could be classified as professional, though; maybe Germany, Japan, and Mexico for starters.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of a visual image, sure Sydney with the opera house and the harbour bridge is something no Canadian city can match in terms of recognition factor.

You'd think the CN Tower in Toronto would have the same impact but for some reason it doesn't.

There are numerous reasons for this and none of them have to do with the CN Tower not measuring up. Australia is viewed as an exotic distant land and given considerable 'space' in people's consciousness. Canada lives in the shadow of the US in the same way that Philadelphia lives in the shadow of NYC. Canada is covered from the US and viewed as an appendage of it. British and American media have reporters based in Australia but not Canada.The mindset is that if you cover North America you cover NYC, LA, SF, Washington. There .... job done! On business shows they often list the ASX but never the TSX despite the latter being substantially larger. This again speaks to how Australia is viewed as its own place.

Australia has an absurdly high profile in the UK; they obsess over it ad nauseam. The weight they give it shows up in print media, tv, film, etc. I've even heard British argue that Sydney is one of the cities one instantly thinks of when one says 'skyscraper'. I almost fell off my chair when I heard that one but it speaks to how Australia focused British society is.

I suspect the fame of the CN Tower will grow in unison with the ascension of Toronto but Toronto will really have to match NYC/London in stature before either city/country will notice Toronto/Canada. Australia/Sydney never need to compete with the US/UK for oxygen.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by wave46

Sure, and California has metropolitan areas of tens of millions, which is why they have so many teams. Their culture is much more pro-sports oriented and harkens from a day that you didn't need billions for an expansion franchise or stadium.

Metros of 10s of millions isn't a requirement. If you look at the size of metros with MLB and NBA it starts at 1.4 million. They're rare cases though. The real lower limit is around 2.0 million. Canada has 3 CMAs larger than 2 million and will have 6 such CMAs by 2035. And having more pro sports teams doesn't mean their culture is more interested in pro sports. It just makes their society more fortunate.

Originally Posted by wave46

The biggest barrier to the NBA in Montreal or Vancouver isn't the city, fans or venue. It's the multi-billion dollar expansion fee, which annihilates any chance somebody will fork out and take the risk on an all-new franchise in a marginal market.

Major League Baseball in Montreal has the problem of the expensive stadium required, along with the marginal support the Expos received. In the age of $100-200 million US payrolls (several times what the Expos spent) for a decently competitive team to keep the fans coming out, the business case is grim. I'd wager that the NBA or MLB would try Las Vegas first, just based on where trends are going.

Neither Montreal or Vancouver are starved of people with that kind of money. Montreal already has its financial backing and plans in place for MLB. It's really just waiting on MLB's say so to commence with ballpark construction. US based leagues are always going to favour US based teams but how long can they ignore Montreal? Montreal is, by far, the biggest market without MLB and a city with a much longer and richer baseball history than Las Vegas and huge swaths of the United States. They've been playing baseball in Montreal since 1860.


http://archivesdemontreal.com/2015/0...-1860-to-1960/

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Didn't realize growing up in New Brunswick that I represented someone interested in the Montreal sports market. Maritimes are closer to Boston than Montreal, and for the sake of this conversation there's more Red Sox fans out east than either Jays or Expos.

That's certainly not true of Nova Scotia. I grew up in Halifax and fans were evenly split between teams based in Boston, Montreal, and Toronto. There were ebbs and flows based on which team was doing well but it was clear that Montreal based teams had widespread support.

The only noticeable difference was age. Older folk tended towards Boston based teams, younger towards Toronto based teams, while supporters of Montreal based teams came from every age group.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm a bit surprised. I grew up in Halifax and fans were evenly split between teams based in Boston, Montreal, and Toronto. There were ebbs and flows based on which team was doing well but it was clear that Montreal based teams had widespread appeal. Maybe things are different in NB.

Perhaps Saint John is just a Red Sox town, then. Used to go to a barber that was all Red Sox on the walls, Boston news on the TV...

When I was growing up there was no Expos so the options were just Red Sox and Jays. I'm sure now it's probably pivoted more to the latter, whereas in the 80s and 90s there would have been more Expos exposure. Can't imagine that's much of the case today, but I don't think it's fair to say that the Maritimes are a default Montreal market because that's what's closest in Canada. Maritimes, and definitely New Brunswick, will pivot more to Boston than Montreal because of language and culture.

[Acajack]

A good third of New Brunswick would pivot to Montreal in terms of pro sports loyalties.

Even people who are Acadian in origin but no longer speak French generally support Montreal.

[MonctonRad]

I grew up on PEI and was about 10 years old when Montreal was awarded the franchise for the Expos. I was a diehard Expos fan when I was a teenager. It took me a while to switch allegiance to the Blue Jays (this was as much as an American League vs a National League thing as anything else; I hated the Canadians, but loved the Maple Leafs at the same time).

I miss the Expos, and if they had a proper stadium if (when) they come back, I could see making the trip up to Montreal to catch a series with them. They had better hurry up though, after about another dozen years, I'll probably be too old to make the trip!