AUSTIN | Millennium Rainey | 99 FEET | 8 FLOORS | Complete

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Tell me what studies indicate that a project like Millinium is a more responsible development than say the Austonian for example? Who's carbon footprint is going to be smaller, who's runoff is going to be less?

That was not the comparison that you made in your post. You made the comparison between projects like Millennium and suburban cookie cutter projects, saying that they are essentially the same for the environment:

I made my case as to why density is better for the environment than sprawl but it went a lot deeper than that.

It's not about density for density's sake, any kind of density will not do. It has to be responsible density with an emphasis of reducing not only it's carbon footprint, it also has to minimize it's rainfall runoff, it's impact on traffic (whether or not it's car centric or if it gives people the opportunity to utilize mass transit) and if it takes advantage of solar energy by having solar panels or wind turbines

I.E. Density is only better for the environment (than cookie cutter suburban developments -- the implied counterfactual here) if it (a) reduces the carbon footprint, (b) minimizes rainfall run-off, (c) takes into consideration transportation patterns, (d) uses alternative energy sources, and (e) other things.

You did NOT make a straight comparison between the Austonian and the Millennium, but rather were making a comparison between both the Austonian AND Millennium and cookie cutter suburban developments, arguing that only the Austonian differs from cookie cutter developments while the Millennium does not.

And here's why you're wrong: because density itself, by definition, reduces the carbon footprint relative to an equivalent sized cookie cutter suburban development; it by definition has more minimal rainfall run-off as a function of the size of the lot; provided that it is located within the core (it usually will be given development patterns), it will by definition take into consideration transportation modes and thus be an upgrade from any suburban cookie cutter design; and what in the world do alternative energy sources have to do with a comparison between suburban designs and urban designs? Either of them can utilize alternative energy sources and thus be better.

[pscajunguy]

It's not likely that people on this forum are going to radically change their opinions about this development. A few people seem to think it's OK, maybe even better than OK, most people do not like it, and quite a few people downright detest a development that they think is outrageous! So this is Millennium's "premier" line, over, say, something like Overton Centre in Lubbock, which is what would appear to be somewhat appropriate to deep urban development, because it is at least somewhat reminiscent of old row house developments and looks pretty decent? I can just see right now how popular Millennium is going to be in a place like Santa Monica which has very little open space to develop and is a very high cost city. The apartments there consist of 374 units of ugly white cubes, many on stilts (which makes a whole lot of sense in Earthquake country!). Just wait until you hear the tizzy this development arouses among Santa Monica residents if you think there is any backlash to it among Austin residents! I don't recall Dinerstein asking for opinions about the Austin development. I can almost guarantee you that they're just going to be cramming this down the throats of Santa Monicans. And I don't think that they are going to be as kind as we are, about it!

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by pscajunguy

It's not likely that people on this forum are going to radically change their opinions about this development. A few people seem to think it's OK, maybe even better than OK, most people do not like it, and quite a few people downright detest a development that they think is outrageous! So this is Millennium's "premier" line, over, say, something like Overton Centre in Lubbock, which is what would appear to be somewhat appropriate to deep urban development, because it is at least somewhat reminiscent of old row house developments and looks pretty decent? I can just see right now how popular Millennium is going to be in a place like Santa Monica which has very little open space to develop and is a very high cost city. The apartments there consist of 374 units of ugly white cubes, many on stilts (which makes a whole lot of sense in Earthquake country!). Just wait until you hear the tizzy this development arouses among Santa Monica residents if you think there is any backlash to it among Austin residents! I don't recall Dinerstein asking for opinions about the Austin development. I can almost guarantee you that they're just going to be cramming this down the throats of Santa Monicans. And I don't think that they are going to be as kind as we are, about it!

You don't cram anything down the throats of Santa Monicans. They have a very strict building code, and a ton of concerned citizens ready to take action to preserve their 8.5 square mile patch of paradise. There are already numerous cube like developments in certain parts of Santa Monica, most notably near or adjacent to Main Street headed down towards Venice and also near the end of Olympic and Pico blvds. White is a favorite color for both old and new buildings in Santa Monica.

I kind of like the "cubes". It seems appropriate for Santa Monica. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...lRzjlYDIIDQ%3D

Here is a link to a Santa Monica newspaper article regarding this project. http://www.smmirror.com/articles/New...-Support/40941

streeview of Santa Monica building site from google: https://www.google.com/maps/place/29...28a950!6m1!1e1

[pscajunguy]

Originally Posted by austlar1

You don't cram anything down the throats of Santa Monicans. They have a very strict building code, and a ton of concerned citizens ready to take action to preserve their 4 square mile patch of paradise. There are already numerous cube like developments in certain parts of Santa Monica, most notably near or adjacent to Main Street headed down towards Venice and also near the end of Olympic and Pico blvds. White is a favorite color for both old and new buildings in Santa Monica.

I kind of like the "cubes". It seems appropriate for Santa Monica. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...lRzjlYDIIDQ%3D

Here is a link to a Santa Monica newspaper article regarding this project. http://www.smmirror.com/articles/New...-Support/40941

streeview of Santa Monica building site from google: https://www.google.com/maps/place/29...28a950!6m1!1e1

No, you don't cram anything down the throats of Santa Monicans! The thing I noticed in the newspaper article are exactly the questions I anticipated when people saw the plans - too dense, where are the seismic studies, how about accommodating bicycles. Apparently, Dinerstein found it just hunky-dory to not provide updates to several items, and this will come back to bite them in the butt. When I lived in California, I used to listen to Public Radio (KCRW in Santa Monica). I still do, online, because of their excellent news coverage and great programming. And I have heard what THEY think about the Millennium Santa Monica project! Anything less than perfection is totally unacceptable in Santa Monica, and that means that Everything will have to be addressed, and ALL the ts must be crossed and ALL the is must be dotted!
FYI, if enough people don't like a project, they don't bitch about it in Santa Monica, they pound the pavement and FIGHT about it! This is what Residocracy,an organization of over 2,000 quite activist people do. And they FIGHT with the City, a lot! Right now they are in a huge fight to stop the development of a project called The Plaza At Santa Monica. It reminds me of a VERY NICE 12 floor version of Austin Proper with LOTS of open space and seating out on the plaza along with lots of greenery. Look at their website. It looks REALLY nice. Residocracy doesn't like it when people are being displaced by money-hungry developers, one bit. Developers have to give in quite a bit to get their support! The Plaza at Santa Monica is in big trouble, now, and you can be sure that they are not going to take too kindly to the destruction of a rather nice mobile home park with lots of trees and greenery in a nice neighborhood by a HUGE apartment complex with very, very little open space, much less trees and greenery, at all and call it "Millennium"!
http://theplazaatsantamonica.com/
Now I would LOVE to see something like The Plaza at Santa Monica in Austin. It would look quite good here. But even though they caved in to Residocracy to provide more low income housing, it still wasn't enough. I'm amazed that companies like Dinerstein don't seem to know much about the communities they are trying to get into. I guess some people in Houston just don't get it, do they? They must think that just because Enron screwed California and was largely responsible for their economic collapse by illegally overcharging them billions and billions of dollars, that California is eternally ripe for the taking. They'd better think again! California will never forget that one! And if they think that people are complaining a lot about them on this forum, I'll bet they'll really be surprised about what they're getting ready to hear from a city that doesn't even have a hundred thousand people! More than likely, they don't at all care what anyone thinks. It's just about the money, take it as fast as you can and run away so fast that you will never be found when things start falling apart.
Santa Monica is very pissed by the politicians who came in and trashed their rent control ordinance with loopholes for the landlords. There have been murders over this. The ONLY thing they hate more than greedy landlords are greedy developers. Good Luck, Dinerstein!

"
Ugly village…. tall boxes. If developers have their way this is what all of Santa Monica will look like.
Laura Wilson-Hausle‎Residocracy Santa Monica
from Residocracy Santa Monica=facebook
"

"
When our elected officials approved the 2010 Land Use and Circulation Element (LUCE), which sparked the tsunami of recent developments, I was promised that existing residential neighborhoods would be conserved; however, this project will not only impact the surrounding existing residential neighborhood, but will also change the entire character and livability of Santa Monica as a whole.
I sincerely hope that as my elected representative on the City Council, you will hear my concerns as a resident and tell the project developer to go back to the drawing board. Tell them loud and clear not to come back until they have something more suitable for Our Town.
"

This is what I wish we had said in Austin! I will NEVER think that this was suitable for our town! At least not where it was built. Maybe we could have gotten them to make a deal with La Frontera and put it up there, so we wouldn't have to look at it all the time. They couldn't possibly charge any more rent on Rainey street than those crappy La Frontera Apartments charge. If you want to pay those rates, you could buy your own damn house in a nice neighborhood in South Austin with trees, open space and more than twice the square footage! There might be a lot of places that would be as nice as that South Austin house in the Rainey area, but Millennium would NOT be one of them!

[austlar1]

Santa Monica, where my sister has lived for the past 35 years or so, is famous for its NIMBYism. That is the main reason that plans for the Wilshire subway line usually terminate just across the Santa Monica city limits in far west Los Angeles. The area where this Millennium project is located has been mostly used for light industry until recently, although there are many small apartment houses and duplex units or fourplex units located on nearby side streets. It is near the Santa Monica airport, which is where the original Douglas Aircraft factory was located until sometime in the 1950s. There are also two to four story business parks in the area which are now filled with high tech firms and entertainment related businesses. The "much loved" trailer park dates from that earlier era of light industry, and I can assure you that few people in Santa Monica ever gave a second thought to that trailer park until developers stepped in with plans to build on that site. Yes, it is sad that some people of modest means will lose their trailer park homes (sounds like they are getting a juicy payoff to leave), but the area where all this is located is ripe for new development. It is just blocks away from the new Exposition light rail line and a mile or two away from other major employment centers in downtown Santa Monica, parts of Venice, Marina del Rey, and Westwood. LAX is about four miles away. LA's high tech boom is happening in the immediate vicinity. It is highly doubtful that this Millennium project will turn into a slum any time soon. Vacancy rates in Santa Monica rental units are probably around 1% or 2%. Most rental units in Santa Monica are still rent-stabilizd (a holdover from the "Peoples' Republic of Santa Monica" era. Progressive Santa Monicans usually want to see density and urban style development everywhere in the Los Angeles area except in Santa Monica. By the way, nothing gets built in Santa Monica without meeting code for seismic risk. If the seismic information was not made available at the time the project was approved, it is certain that it will be made available and submitted for review before any building permits are issued.

Anyway, I love to argue way too much. Dinerstein Company is not the devil incarnate. They are developers out to make a buck, and that, after all, is why most things in this country get built in the first place.

[corvairkeith]

8/25















Brick is starting to go up on the Driskill Street side.

[_Matt]

Driving on I-35 south, it had a nice texture. Not a flat and empty wall. We'll see how it finishes out though.

[the Genral]

Originally Posted by _Matt

Driving on I-35 south, it had a nice texture. Not a flat and empty wall. We'll see how it finishes out though.

Well Matt, you know what they say, you can put texture on a pig, but its still a pig

[Tech House]

I need to come out of the closet: I'm not a MR hater. We need more actual FILL instead of just random isolated sticks jutting up out of flatness. Gotta have some shrubs to go with the trees, especially given the building codes that restrict the amount that can be done to create a real downtown.

Developments like this can enhance the look of the skyline by giving more texture (there's that word again!) to the baseline. The overall look will be more urban and interesting with this type of variety. Obviously I wouldn't want to see many more MRs downtown, but this one, right where it is, ain't the end of the world the way so many people make it out to be. It looks a helluva lot better than those hideous cubical hotels that are threatening the character and continued existence of the Red River district.

[SkyPie]

Originally Posted by Tech House

I need to come out of the closet: I'm not a MR hater. We need more actual FILL instead of just random isolated sticks jutting up out of flatness. Gotta have some shrubs to go with the trees, especially given the building codes that restrict the amount that can be done to create a real downtown.

Developments like this can enhance the look of the skyline by giving more texture (there's that word again!) to the baseline. The overall look will be more urban and interesting with this type of variety. Obviously I wouldn't want to see many more MRs downtown, but this one, right where it is, ain't the end of the world the way so many people make it out to be. It looks a helluva lot better than those hideous cubical hotels that are threatening the character and continued existence of the Red River district.

I've gotta agree with you, it's not that bad. Plus, I was on Rainey St. last week and the massing of this building feels right next to the bungalows. Anything taller would have felt too imposing on that section of the street. I wish it had more retail facing Rainey, but overall it's size allows it to fit in well with its neighbors.

[resansom]

Agreed that it's not bad, and it will probably be good for the neighborhood, in the end, but that doesn't mean that we should not want (or expect) more for Austin. Here's an image of a development project in New York (Manhattan or Brooklyn) that appears to to be similar in size to MR that just knocks the socks off of the latter (IMO):

I would like to think that the developers in Austin have a sense for good design/aesthetics, but when I see projects that seem to lack any real inspiration, I have to wonder...

[Mopacs]

From I-35 on Saturday, 9/12

[The ATX]

I wonder if that bar has live music at night?

[drummer]

^^ So...is that billboard staying? Five feet from the windows?

[the Genral]

Originally Posted by drummer

^^ So...is that billboard staying? Five feet from the windows?

That would suck, but that sign, tree, and cafe all look to block that gorgeous view of I35 for a few unlucky residents. This is where a dreaded by us parking podium would be a good thing.

[drummer]

Ha, if you look past 35, at least you have a lot of trees in the neighborhoods across the way. Maybe the billboard doubles as a sound barrier for I-35 traffic.

[Cd1076]

[QUOTE=The ATX;7163643]I wonder if that bar has live music at night?

That's about the 6th or 7th business in that location is the last few years. It's pretty much cursed no matter what business goes in. The place was originally designed and built by a strip club owner so the space is laid out (surprise) like a strip club. There was a bar where the stage would be if I remember correctly from the one time I ventured in there.

[clubtokyo]

[QUOTE=Cd1076;7164220]

Originally Posted by The ATX

I wonder if that bar has live music at night?

That's about the 6th or 7th business in that location is the last few years. It's pretty much cursed no matter what business goes in. The place was originally designed and built by a strip club owner so the space is laid out (surprise) like a strip club. There was a bar where the stage would be if I remember correctly from the one time I ventured in there.

Maybe they can remodel and cater to the yuppies that will be living in the apartments. I remember an apartment complex in Dallas, that was built around a bar like that, before the apartments were built no one went to that bar, but after it was like the whole apartment complex would walk over, drink and stumble back home.

[Jdawgboy]

Yea I'm not so sure I'd like to look oit my window and see people eating. This is one of those situations where it's just odd. I also don't think I'd wanna eat on that patio knowing residents could just post up at their windows and stare lol. If I was the owner of the restaurant I'd block all that with screens with vines growing over but then you'd hear the people in the building complain. Well tough crap the developer shouldn't have built it like that and the restaurant should be able to do whatever screening they see fit in that kind of situation.

[Tech House]

I love the ginormous trees they saved on the east side of MR. I rarely drive past there on 35 but did so a couple days ago and was startled by the size and dramatic visual impact of those trees.

As for the restaurant, dat's ugly, especially in its new context. Will be interesting to see what happens with it. I personally wouldn't have a problem with eating on the patio with respect to MR dwellers' windows, but I don't envision myself ever wanting to eat in that location due to proximity to freeway noise, odors, and tense vibes. Good location for a strip club, may I suggest that it be purchased and utilized by Nude Nudes of LAX fame? So tasteful, so iconic.