Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I agree there are big problems, I'm not sure what the answer is.

It definitely doesn't consist in continuing to go in the same direction, or doubling down on the failed policies, that got us here.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

This is all pandemic related though, once the economy fully opens up these problems will self correct.

Are you going to start a business and occupy one of the many vacant retail spaces? Face it, Chinatown has been on the brink for a while. The demographics are killing the reason for the neighbourhood's retail. The older asian demographic don't spend as much in their 70s-90s, and the younger crowd isn't nearly as tied to Chinatown as the centre of their social lives. The new immigrant crowd is also centred far more around Burnaby and Richmond than Chinatown.

The amount of retail in Chinatown far exceeds what the DTES and Strathcona can support. It's heavily dependent on destination shoppers, such as tourists or people who's social circle is still Chinatown centric but live elsewhere.

There were many (I think 80-90) vacant retail spots pre-pandemic. Now there's dozens more, and some blocks are losing critical mass.

I haven't gone out and counted them, but there's probably another 20-30 businesses which folded, and if tourism stays down for another 6 months or year, many more will fold. Long standing operations such as the Beijing Trading Co. and Ming Wo have shut down, which I think are decent bell weathers. Quite a few other ones which I though were quite good, like Bestie have also closed.

If you want a good comparison, go on Street View. You can compare go through and see what an area looks like at multiple points in time from the exact same point of view.

Here for example, (although Hastings not Chinatown). On this block, one of my favourite restaurants (Acme) closed a couple years back, it's replacement has since struggled with break-ins and vandalism. Army and Navy has just shuttered, removing (some) destination shoppers. Army and Navy is getting turned into a shelter, and no firm plans for developing the lot across the street. It's not just going to bounce back.

2020

2017

2015

2009

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Oh no? OMFG they were yelling? OH THE FUCKING HUMANITY

I swear the amount of overt classism and ableism in this thread makes me fucking sick to my stomach

Despite your pollyanna attitude, the fact remains: why would anyone choose to live in an area where you're going to have to constantly deal with crazy people? At some point, even the most ardent anti-commuter is going to say "I'm tired of dealing with this shit".

Maybe Vancouver will get lucky and there will be a constant stream of international students and FOB tech workers willing to rent those condos and apartments even if permanent residents have no interest in putting up with the crazy. Maybe not.

[CivicBlues]

Unless you are living in the DTES, no one is dealing with crazy people "all the time". I also don't think there's some kind of invisible force field keeping crazy people in the downtown peninsula or west of Boundary Road.

Both sides of this argument are turning hyperbolic trying to justify their life choices to each other.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Unless you are living in the DTES, no one is dealing with crazy people "all the time". I also don't think there's some kind of invisible force field keeping crazy people in the downtown peninsula or west of Boundary Road.

Both sides of this argument are turning hyperbolic trying to justify their life choices to each other.

Some would probably consider economics an invisible force.

The homeless and mentally ill generally have less mobility the most other groups in the general population. The highest concentration of services for that demographic is in the DTES, so in effect there may as well be.

Burnaby explicitly avoided allowing homeless shelters in it's boundaries until the current administration. If you were homeless, why would you venture from the city where you can get a free meal and some shelter to a city where the mayor actively blocked providing services?

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Some would probably consider economics an invisible force.

The homeless and mentally ill generally have less mobility the most other groups in the general population. The highest concentration of services for that demographic is in the DTES, so in effect there may as well be.

Burnaby explicitly avoided allowing homeless shelters in it's boundaries until the current administration. If you were homeless, why would you venture from the city where you can get a free meal and some shelter to a city where the mayor actively blocked providing services?

eh? https://www.burnabynow.com/local-new...target-3315896
Burnaby is one municipality out of dozens, many of which have their own homeless issues.

I realize this thread is specifically about the homeless situation in the DTES, but no municipality is free from mentally ill people doing mentally ill people things, shootings, break-ins, and yes even the homeless. Some posters here like to think Downtown and adjacent areas is the only place where such things take place.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

eh? https://www.burnabynow.com/local-new...target-3315896
Burnaby is one municipality out of dozens, many of which have their own homeless issues.

I realize this thread is specifically about the homeless situation in the DTES, but no municipality is free from mentally ill people doing mentally ill people things, shootings, break-ins, and yes even the homeless. Some posters here like to think Downtown and adjacent areas is the only place where such things take place.

You might want to reread what I said. Up to this current mayor...

Derek Corrigan explicitly avoided funding any homeless shelters for something like 16 years. That slack was largely picked up by Vancouver.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

You might want to reread what I said. Up to this current mayor...

Derek Corrigan explicitly avoided funding any homeless shelters for something like 16 years. That slack was largely picked up by Vancouver.

I would love for everyone to join.

Hypothetical game to play out; lets suspend reality for this thought exercise.

Vancouver closes all shelters and ceases all and any support. No more food. No more housing, no more needles, nothing. Current laws, including private property rights will be enforced. No more sleeping in parks, sidewalks, etc.
It all ends midnight tonight.

What happens from here?

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I didn't realize 2 months was a "Very long time"

Are you suggesting the pandemic will be over in 2 months? Even with a new strain popping up every other week ? C'mon, man...

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

You're out to lunch if you think the scars of this pandemic will last longer than at most another 12 months, the businesses which leave will be replaced. The market will adapt to the future.

Ummm... what ?

You clearly have no idea what it takes to open a brick & mortar business in this day and age.

If you actually had a clue, you would know that 2020 was a devastating year. for brick & mortar businesses. Not only would these businesses have to sustain the overhead of maintaining the rent of the space they are in but they would also have to operate in extremely restrictive conditions that would limit their capacity to operate profitably.

Yes, some businesses made one hell of a pivot in light of things. But business owners always look to the future and they are always trying to forecast based on data. And right now, there is a vaccine for 1 strain of Covid; not all of them.

I'm saying this because businesses don't close up overnight. Owners are always looking at the numbers to see if they are operating at a loss or not. A realistic business owner is going to forecast with the pandemic in mind. And that includes any entrepreneurs that are looking to start their own brick & mortar business as well.

New entrepreneurs are going to look at places in Chinatown with a lens jaded by the pandemic; and they are also going to take into account that Chinatown is a problematic area because (guess what?) break ins and robberies drives up the cost to run your business. No one is scrambling for the next vacant commercial lot in Chinatown or the DTES because the costs to run a business (nevermind open up a brand new one) are increased by the very area that it operates in.

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Everything will be normal completely by the end of the year, if you think covid is bad enough to last longer than that than all I can say is you're really delusional.

Got proof that it's going away by the end of the year?

I'll wait.

(By the way, you at least need a booster for every new COVID strain out there. And the fact that a vaccine got quickly put out by November 2020 was nothing short of a modern day miracle. Good luck getting each vaccine/booster developed fast enough to keep up with the evolving strains of this virus!)

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

This entire pandemic has been made out to be thos grand crisis on the same level as the great depression or world war 2. Don't make me laugh, the meme virus will be gone in Canada within a year and cases will be low enough by july 1st to make any of this shit moot.

It is a grand crisis because it shut down the entire global economy .

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I'll say this, regardless I'm burning my fucking masks on July 1st regardless of what happens, sick of this shit.
Rant over.

And you have the freedom to do so... I think ?

Just because you are over it, it doesn't mean that others are not. And it doesn't erase the psychic scars acquired by this pandemic based on your own experience. If you are ready to rip off your mask and burn it on the doorsteps of Parliament, then good for you . The fact remains that we have been covering our faces for a year for safety concerns and there are sub-conscious consequences for it whether we want to admit it or not.

The fact remains that the DTES and Chinatown have been deteriorating long before any pandemic hit. The COVID pandemic merely catalyzed the direction it was heading in by removing the people and businesses that were hanging on by a thread.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by scryer

Are you suggesting the pandemic will be over in 2 months? Even with a new strain popping up every other week ? C'mon, man...




Ummm... what ?

You clearly have no idea what it takes to open a brick & mortar business in this day and age.

If you actually had a clue, you would know that 2020 was a devastating year. for brick & mortar businesses. Not only would these businesses have to sustain the overhead of maintaining the rent of the space they are in but they would also have to operate in extremely restrictive conditions that would limit their capacity to operate profitably.

Yes, some businesses made one hell of a pivot in light of things. But business owners always look to the future and they are always trying to forecast based on data. And right now, there is a vaccine for 1 strain of Covid; not all of them.

I'm saying this because businesses don't close up overnight. Owners are always looking at the numbers to see if they are operating at a loss or not. A realistic business owner is going to forecast with the pandemic in mind. And that includes any entrepreneurs that are looking to start their own brick & mortar business as well.

New entrepreneurs are going to look at places in Chinatown with a lens jaded by the pandemic; and they are also going to take into account that Chinatown is a problematic area because (guess what?) break ins and robberies drives up the cost to run your business. No one is scrambling for the next vacant commercial lot in Chinatown or the DTES because the costs to run a business (nevermind open up a brand new one) are increased by the very area that it operates in.




Got proof that it's going away by the end of the year?

I'll wait.

(By the way, you at least need a booster for every new COVID strain out there. And the fact that a vaccine got quickly put out by November 2020 was nothing short of a modern day miracle. Good luck getting each vaccine/booster developed fast enough to keep up with the evolving strains of this virus!)





It is a grand crisis because it shut down the entire global economy .





And you have the freedom to do so... I think ?

Just because you are over it, it doesn't mean that others are not. And it doesn't erase the psychic scars acquired by this pandemic based on your own experience. If you are ready to rip off your mask and burn it on the doorsteps of Parliament, then good for you . The fact remains that we have been covering our faces for a year for safety concerns and there are sub-conscious consequences for it whether we want to admit it or not.

The fact remains that the DTES and Chinatown have been deteriorating long before any pandemic hit. The COVID pandemic merely catalyzed the direction it was heading in by removing the people and businesses that were hanging on by a thread.

Do me a favour and look up Covid cases in the uk per day. Now look at vaccination rates. Canada is 2-3 months from vaccinating everyone and will look the same. I see alarmists fear mongering variants online and im
Calling out their bullshit. No evidence of covid coking back in ANY of the highly vaccinated countries. Covid in the us and Canada will be over by July 1st. Anyone who disagrees with this and pushes the narrative of “muh variants” has an agenda, I’d love to know what yours is. LARPING apocalypse isn’t funny anymore.

[SeymourDrake]

Originally Posted by rofina

I would love for everyone to join.

Hypothetical game to play out; lets suspend reality for this thought exercise.

Vancouver closes all shelters and ceases all and any support. No more food. No more housing, no more needles, nothing. Current laws, including private property rights will be enforced. No more sleeping in parks, sidewalks, etc.
It all ends midnight tonight.

What happens from here?

They Build a Wall

[SeymourDrake]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Do me a favour and look up Covid cases in the uk per day. Now look at vaccination rates. Canada is 2-3 months from vaccinating everyone and will look the same. I see alarmists fear mongering variants online and im
Calling out their bullshit. No evidence of covid coking back in ANY of the highly vaccinated countries. Covid in the us and Canada will be over by July 1st. Anyone who disagrees with this and pushes the narrative of “muh variants” has an agenda, I’d love to know what yours is. LARPING apocalypse isn’t funny anymore.

what exactly do you mean by over?

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

what exactly do you mean by over?

Over in this scenario means cases are low enough that we can end the vast majority of restrictions if not all or them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by rofina

Vancouver closes all shelters and ceases all and any support. No more food. No more housing, no more needles, nothing. Current laws, including private property rights will be enforced. No more sleeping in parks, sidewalks, etc.
It all ends midnight tonight.

What happens from here?

Nothing changes. There's no enforcement. Police lines would get flooded but they'd still triage calls and these would be low priority. The city would look worse than it does.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Do me a favour and look up Covid cases in the uk per day. Now look at vaccination rates. Canada is 2-3 months from vaccinating everyone and will look the same. I see alarmists fear mongering variants online and im
Calling out their bullshit.

Originally Posted by scryer

Got proof that it's going away by the end of the year?

I'll wait.

I'm not doing your research for you . That's not how debates work. If you have a leg to stand on, produce the proof and resources like I called out before.

I'll wait.

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

No evidence of covid coking back in ANY of the highly vaccinated countries. Covid in the us and Canada will be over by July 1st. Anyone who disagrees with this and pushes the narrative of “muh variants” has an agenda, I’d love to know what yours is. LARPING apocalypse isn’t funny anymore.

Weird argument there... We can't have different opinions anymore without being accused of being a CoNnsSPppiRaCy tHeoRisSst now ? I am clearly allowing you the freedom to express your opinion un-censored on the matter without having to pathetically try to slap labels on your character; and in order to have a conversation that ultimately builds a course of action, or a place of agreement, we need these conversations to take place without those kind of vapid accusations to try and shut the other person down.

My point is that the pandemic will have an everlasting effect on significant portions of the population. One of those effects could be psychological. The global community is not emerging from the pandemic unscathed in some form or another.

The fact of the matter is, businesses don't pop up or close down overnight. These are calculated moves to some degree. Chinatown and the DTES was already struggling trying to attract new businesses because there is an increase in the costs to run a business there.

For example, a break in can costs thousands of dollars adding another immediate expense onto a business. Sure they may be abled to claim that expense sometime down the road but the business doesn't get paid out right away nor do insurances necessarily replace the entire cost of the break in, rather insurances cover the value of the items at the time of the break in.

If you combine the expenses of break ins with the fact that there are increased number of reported () crimes in the DTES and Chinatown, it makes the area quite daunting for new businesses to open up among many other factors.

The pandemic sped a lot of things up and, IMO, that includes the closures of businesses in the DTES and in Chinatown.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Nothing changes. There's no enforcement. Police lines would get flooded but they'd still triage calls and these would be low priority. The city would look worse than it does.

So the homeless choose to remain indefinitely in Vancouver despite no longer receiving any support and being required to move and clean up daily? I find that hard to believe.

One of my suspensions of reality items was that we would begin to enforce exiting laws and orders.

I'm just genuinely curious to hear an answer from the local vocal crowd on this.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by rofina

So the homeless choose to remain indefinitely in Vancouver despite no longer receiving any support and being required to move and clean up daily? I find that hard to believe.

One of my suspensions of reality items was that we would begin to enforce exiting laws and orders.

I'm just genuinely curious to hear an answer from the local vocal crowd on this.

I'm saying they won't be required to do anything. Nobody will have the time and resources to enforce it.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I didn't realize 2 months was a "Very long time"

You're out to lunch if you think the scars of this pandemic will last longer than at most another 12 months, the businesses which leave will be replaced. The market will adapt to the future.

How many business have you started or operated? I wish I lived in your reality where "business will just open."

A business is an aggregator of talent. Someone chooses to bring together a group of people and products because initially numbers on a page make sense.

Everything will be normal completely by the end of the year, if you think covid is bad enough to last longer than that than all I can say is you're really delusional. This entire pandemic has been made out to be thos grand crisis on the same level as the great depression or world war 2. Don't make me laugh, the meme virus will be gone in Canada within a year and cases will be low enough by july 1st to make any of this shit moot.

You're literally ignoring reality.

The money spent over the last year to prop up our lives and economy is greater than the spend for WW2. Its greater than any debt Canada has ever taken on for any reason.

Try to think what the last year would have looked like without 300 billion in government support.

The Depression would have been a joke compared to what the state of the country would be today.

I'll say this, regardless I'm burning my fucking masks on July 1st regardless of what happens, sick of this shit.
Rant over.

That's a cute thing to say for a self proclaimed East Van Socialist. Pretty individual based train of thought.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm saying they won't be required to do anything. Nobody will have the time and resources to enforce it.

Not just from yourself, but elsewhere as well, I keep on hearing "no one will have time or resources to enforce it."

Where are all the time and resources going? Is there such a massive crime problem and massive understaffing problem that our services are not able to address both?

If so, why is this already not a government ending bit of news?

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by rofina

Not just from yourself, but elsewhere as well, I keep on hearing "no one will have time or resources to enforce it."

Where are all the time and resources going? Is there such a massive crime problem and massive understaffing problem that our services are not able to address both?

If so, why is this already not a government ending bit of news?

You can pour a ton of resources into the issue but the only viable solution is forced incarceration and triaging. This would take upfront capital to build facilities, staff and bring forth legislative change...which would be undermined by social justice and human rights advocates that would scream bloody murder once a few marginalize people get held against their will (ie. First Nations).

Societal changes in the past 20 years have destroyed any possibility of correcting the issue. Police are scared of arresting criminals because many vocal social justice advocates see these people as vagrants that have been screwed by the system and have a large backing from non-profits in the DTES that depend on these followers to maintain their existence.

So yes, pouring billions of dollars into drugs and housing seems to be the only viable solution at this time..