ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by alco89

What you suggested isn't anything new. PPP (public-private partnership) has been talked about for the Beltline, but for whatever reason the leadership we have in place don't seem interested. I know Cathy Woolard was a big proponent for it.

What I suggested isn't really a PPP. I was suggesting the Beltline.org or MARTA should look at selling branding/advertising to private companies to help fund mass transit on the Beltline. In a PPP, private companies are co-owners of the transportation project. In my example private companies would not own any part of the project. They would merely pay an annual/long contract for marketing on a segment of the Beltline.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I’m glad not everyone is just blindly accepting what he says. Several are... Don’t get me wrong, the beltline is an incredible project and gravel knows what he’s talking about from a general planning perspective. He isn’t a transportation planner though.

I find the group beltline rail now has acted more like an echo chamber trumpeting a pet project rather than providing sensible information to articulate the tangible benefits and services that would be provided by a transformative project. That and they’re blind to any benefits from any other project on the list.

Why do you feel the need to disparage anyone as "blindly" following along? Could it possibly be that people actually agree with what Gravel's position?

And your characterization of Beltine Rail Now offering no information on WHY they feel the Beltline should be prioritized is categorically false. They have held a couple of public forums on the subject and Gravel has a website where he has repeatedly posted his thoughts in detail on the subject.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Martinman

Why do you feel the need to disparage anyone as "blindly" following along? Could it possibly be that people actually agree with what Gravel's position?

And your characterization of Beltine Rail Now offering no information on WHY they feel the Beltline should be prioritized is categorically false. They have held a couple of public forums on the subject and Gravel has a website where he has repeatedly posted his thoughts in detail on the subject.

Even I agree with Ryan Gravel's thesis with respect to the Beltline being a creative transportation solution to Atlanta's long term needs. Does that mean I support "blindly" everything he believes - Hell to the NO and nor should anyone else. The fact is we need density in order to justify the cost of putting mass transit on the Beltline. Just recently 3 Beltline developments got axed or size limited because of push back from NIMBY (10th & Monroe, O4W 21 story condo and Westside Yards/Echo Street projects).

So I think it is completely appropriate at this conjuncture to steer funding to projects where there is already density to justify the capital investment.

Lastly did you read the Twitter thread link I posted where Ryan repeatedly stated to me the CoA and MARTA had committed funding to mass transit on the Beltline and he said the citizens voted for this? Everything he said was a lie. The citizens approved a tax increase to expand MARTA - not mass transit on the Beltline. Additionally the CoA and MARTA have never committed to funding mass transit on the Beltline. Again, he repeatedly lied to prove his point and I called him out on it. Therefore, for anyone to "blindly" believe anything Ryan Gravel has to say without third party verification is a "Buffoon" to quote the brain-trust Pica.

[MARTAisSmarta]

Despite what is being said, some of these ideas for transit have been around for quite a while

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Final Draft Project List

Transit funding included -

Arts Center to Cumberland Transit - $856 million
Clifton Corridor Transit - $700 million
Beltline - $600 million
Marta State of Good Repair - $600 million
Marta Indian Creek to Wesley Chapel - $225 million
Clayton County Bus system - $100 million
GRTA Express Bus System - $95 million
Gwinnett Rail Transit - $95 million

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Marta has decided on the light rail option for the Clifton Corridor.

• 8.8 miles of light rail double track (includes tunnels and elevated sections)
  
• 10 light rail station platforms
  Lindbergh Center (transfer to Red or Gold Lines)
  Cheshire Bridge
  Sage Hill
  CDC/Emory Point
  Emory-Rollins
  Emory-Clairmont
  North Decatur
  Suburban Plaza
  DeKalb Medical Center
  Avondale Station (transfer to Blue Line)
• 3 additional optional stations for consideration
  Piedmont (transfer to BeltLine)
  DeKalb Industrial
  North Arcadia (old DeVry campus)
• 2 Maintenance and/or storage facilities

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Here's a map of the rail projects in the Transportation Investment Act.

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

Updates on the Streetcar/Beltline Transit planned line operations:

Beltline Center Loop:


Crosstown Inner Loop:


Crosstown Outer Loop:


Crosstown Peachtree Line:


Crosstown Midtown Line:


Crosstown Crescent Line:

So to say that Clifton or the Beltline was never advertised when trying to convince people to vote for expanded transit is just false. Both have been pitched repeatedly to the point where everyone thought their favorite project would be included in the transit measures.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Martinman

Why do you feel the need to disparage anyone as "blindly" following along? Could it possibly be that people actually agree with what Gravel's position?

And your characterization of Beltine Rail Now offering no information on WHY they feel the Beltline should be prioritized is categorically false. They have held a couple of public forums on the subject and Gravel has a website where he has repeatedly posted his thoughts in detail on the subject.

There is nothing wrong, at all, in believing in and supporting the BeltLine. However, BRN has been misleading the public with inaccurate information and had not been providing legitimate transportation analysis to support any of their findings (to be fair MARTA was not disclosing this info until recent either and they clearly fudged their BeltLine ridership numbers... but they didn’t include NEW ridership, total constituency % increase in new transit accessibility for each project, nor populations served along the routes). Rather, Gravel and BRN have been discrediting a handful of projects without merit and have been pandering politically to KLB/SW Atlanta in order to potentially receive a larger slice of the pie.

Gravel, as a planner, should be encouraging a more ethical review of the projects. I was really disappointed in the presentation he put together and why.

[MARTAisSmarta]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

More MARTA released ridership forecasts for all projects on the list, along with costs. Previously it was just costs. Worth noting, 1) they fudged the beltline forecasts saying each segment was projected to have the exact same ridership, 2) crosstown LRT was used in the analysis although MARTA recently changed the mode to BRT, 3) crosstown lines are listed as not exclusive ROW, meaning BRT is not actually BRT, but rather just a bus, and 4) very strange, IMO, they did not include how many people lived along the routes. Instead, they only listed “emplyees”, which I presume means “jobs”.

https://www.itsmarta.com/uploadedFil...0included).pdf

It seems like they're trying to back into analysis to confirm what they already decided is the best option. So public input maybe won't even matter. This is typical Atlanta politics and why the 2011 tax got shot down. This sucks.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by MARTAisSmarta

Despite what is being said, some of these ideas for transit have been around for quite a while

So to say that Clifton or the Beltline was never advertised when trying to convince people to vote for expanded transit is just false. Both have been pitched repeatedly to the point where everyone thought their favorite project would be included in the transit measures.

MARTAisSmarta - when did I or anyone else on here suggest, "Clifton or the Beltline was never advertised when trying to convince people to vote for expanded transit"? Ryan Gravel's Tweet to me said the CoA, MARTA & the citizens voted to fund mass transit on the Beltline - which is a lie.

The voters November 2016 approved $2.5 Billion in new taxes to expand MARTA. The voters didn't approve any individual MARTA expansion project. In total MARTA is evaluating over $11 Billion in projects, of which later this year MARTA will decide what projects they are planning to fund and which ones to table.

I am dumbfounded how you could misconstrue what I or Street Advocate said and respond as you did.

[MARTAisSmarta]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

MARTAisSmarta - when did I or anyone else on here suggest, "Clifton or the Beltline was never advertised when trying to convince people to vote for expanded transit"? Ryan Gravel's Tweet to me said the CoA, MARTA & the citizens voted to fund mass transit on the Beltline - which is a lie.

The voters November 2016 approved $2.5 Billion in new taxes to expand MARTA. The voters didn't approve any individual MARTA expansion project. In total MARTA is evaluating over $11 Billion in projects, of which later this year MARTA will decide what projects they are planning to fund and which ones to table.

I am dumbfounded how you could misconstrue what I or Street Advocate said and respond as you did.

Why do you always take everything personally? I'm just trying to explain the disconnect between what they are proposing and what everyone's expectations are. I think many people saw the maps and heard "MARTA expansion in Atlanta" and saw the project lists which emphasize the Beltline and now people are unhappy that half(?) of the projects listed are not going to be built.

Personally, if I lived on the NW or SE quadrants of town, and had seen the current list of projects (seen here) I would not have voted for it. You cannot deny there is a significant difference between what you posted below and the new proposed list. Sure, it has always said "potential" but it is certainly misleading to go from one map that shows a built out transit network to something that looks like the existing "t" of the current MARTA lines with an "S" added to it.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by cabasse

yeah, unfortunately. seems like a few very vocal clifton corridor opponents have changed what was a very positive tone about the project list with a list of grievances full of hyperbole. (a "FREEWAY" down north decatur even though there are no additional lanes) nobody seems to understand that the CC has been further along in planning for some time.

There has been plenty of rhetoric on both sides but I don't believe there are ANY opponents of the Clifton Corridor. The issue is a limited amount of money to fund transit expansion and the city funding the Clifton Corridor alone. Before the referendum Marta even made note of the fact the CC was contingent on an agreement with Dekalb. Beltline Rail Now simply believes that this should still be the case after the referendum.

[ATLswede]

Originally Posted by cparker73

I wonder if the projected taxes include the increase in revenue that would come with the additional 3 million people who are expected to move here over the next 30 years. That's not that far away, and that sort of growth feeds on itself and would be accelerated by a transit plan like this.

Unfortunately, you can't really use projected future population growth when it comes to underwriting bonds, which will need to be done to finance this. For example, when the BeltLine TAD and other TAD bond issuances were done, they had to be based on a conservative forecast for appreciation of existing rooftops. Even projects then in the development pipeline or that had already broken ground didn't count.

The projections should (must?) influence where the transit is located and which communities it serves, but do not influence how the projects are paid for (except for perhaps service and maintenance costs, which are [typically] not financed by bonds).

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by MARTAisSmarta

Why do you always take everything personally? I'm just trying to explain the disconnect between what they are proposing and what everyone's expectations are. I think many people saw the maps and heard "MARTA expansion in Atlanta" and saw the project lists which emphasize the Beltline and now people are unhappy that half(?) of the projects listed are not going to be built.

Personally, if I lived on the NW or SE quadrants of town, and had seen the current list of projects (seen here) I would not have voted for it. You cannot deny there is a significant difference between what you posted below and the new proposed list. Sure, it has always said "potential" but it is certainly misleading to go from one map that shows a built out transit network to something that looks like the existing "t" of the current MARTA lines with an "S" added to it.

Why do I take everything personally? Maybe I have a lower constitution than yourself, but Pica earlier called me a "buffoon" and you had this post:

So to say that Clifton or the Beltline was never advertised when trying to convince people to vote for expanded transit is just false. Both have been pitched repeatedly to the point where everyone thought their favorite project would be included in the transit measures.

Your post above was either directed at myself, Street Advocate or both of us. As I stated earlier, neither my or Streets Advocates post(s) justified your response. So admittedly I am being defensive, but in all honestly you are being cowardly by not standing behind what you said or saying you incorrectly responded to one or both of us. Instead you are making me out to be the crazy one.

[Street Advocate]

Let's talk a bit more about these projects and More MARTA in general.

I don't think the S concept nor the proposed project list is a terrible list. In fact, it's relatively decent list (although S concept is entirely designed based off geographic symmetry/perceived equity rather than throughput, ridership, or actually making it easier for low income neighborhoods to reach job centers). Two projects in general are certainly questionable about what/why they're included, despite having merit, 1) Clifton (due to the conditional statmenet regarding other communities to help fund the project) and 2) Campbellton BRT/LRT overlap (due to high cost, overlap of services, and relatively low population density [despite high ridership and low POV rates]).

That said! My issue is entirely about how MARTA and BRN! are acting with regards to community engagement. They should have collected facts about the projects, run analysis, presented the analysis for each project to the community, received community feedback, and then including that in their modeling for the prioritized list, re-engaged w/communities, then finalized the list.

[Street Advocate]

A few questions people should be asking/interested in/demanding from MARTA:

1) How much does each project cost (total, per mile, per population along the route, and per job along the route)?
2) How many people live along each project?
3) How many jobs are along each project?
4) What's the projected ridership of each route?
5) Of the projected ridership of each route, how many would be new riders?
6) Does either of the routes ridership overlap with existing infrastructure?
7) For each project, what is the % increase of of new high capacity transit services to areas that previously did not have high capacity transit accessible?

MARTA should be planning and communicating how to support existing riders, cover a much broader service base/transit accessibility, integrating w/the existing infrastructure without significant overlap, and be able to quantify all of this information back to the constituents before a decision has been made.

[MARTAisSmarta]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Let's talk a bit more about these projects and More MARTA in general.

I don't think the S concept nor the proposed project list is a terrible list. In fact, it's relatively decent list (although S concept is entirely designed based off geographic symmetry/perceived equity rather than throughput, ridership, or actually making it easier for low income neighborhoods to reach job centers). Two projects in general are certainly questionable about what/why they're included, despite having merit, 1) Clifton (due to the conditional statmenet regarding other communities to help fund the project) and 2) Campbellton BRT/LRT overlap (due to high cost, overlap of services, and relatively low population density [despite high ridership and low POV rates]).

That said! My issue is entirely about how MARTA and BRN! are acting with regards to community engagement. They should have collected facts about the projects, run analysis, presented the analysis for each project to the community, received community feedback, and then including that in their modeling for the prioritized list, re-engaged w/communities, then finalized the list.

I agree with you on both Clifton and Campbelton. It seems like the project list is there to try to make a " * " shape out of MARTA, rather than to connect neighborhoods. When the CoA is choosing to tax itself, while the rest of the metro area shot down every opportunity, I think the project list should be created to connect the Atlanta neighborhoods. This means we need higher density of transit stops, instead of a select line here or there that is useless unless you're going somewhere directly on that route.

Instead it seems like they're trying to expand outward so that they can provide an extension more easily when a suburban county decides to join MARTA later.

[MARTAisSmarta]

Also, when I say it seems like they're trying to use the money meant for City of Atlanta build out to connect to the suburbs instead of providing transit around Atlanta, it will create a worse system in the future. I'm afraid we will end up with something that looks like these:

Rather than something like these:

And that's really unfortunate when we're starting with basically a clean slate in having only two transit lines.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by MARTAisSmarta

Also, when I say it seems like they're trying to use the money meant for City of Atlanta build out to connect to the suburbs instead of providing transit around Atlanta, it will create a worse system in the future. I'm afraid we will end up with something that looks like these:


And that's really unfortunate when we're starting with basically a clean slate in having only two transit lines.

I hate to admit it, but I think Atlanta is still a little too undeveloped to determine where transit lines should be added. It’s needed, certainly, but the lack of density, sporadic nature of development, preexisting single family home neighborhoods, and the restrictions of existing railroads and highways really constricts where new lines should go, IMO. Hell, MARTA has station in SFH neighborhoods with little to no interest with increasing density next to its stations. Even LRT on the beltline, arguably the most transformative project on the list, would turn its back on existing commercial districts throughout the city. Atlanta City design has been the best stab at what to strive for, but how the city developed does not help its cause at this time.

[pica]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

So who is the buffoon now Pica?

You were, and still are, because he's actually trying to affect the generational change for Atlanta that he thinks is best for the city. And you are... arguing with him on Twitter for cool points on an internet message board.

Thank you for asking me.

[pica]

Originally Posted by alco89

What you suggested isn't anything new. PPP (public-private partnership) has been talked about for the Beltline, but for whatever reason the leadership we have in place don't seem interested. I know Cathy Woolard was a big proponent for it.

If only the city were proposing a transit line that primarily benefited a major academic and medical institution... even better if that institution had a $6 billion endowment. I'm sure they would jump at the chance to build something like... I dunno, the Emory HealthLine or something like that.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by pica

You were, and still are, because he's actually trying to affect the generational change for Atlanta that he thinks is best for the city. And you are... arguing with him on Twitter for cool points on an internet message board.

Thank you for asking me.

I would rather be a buffoon than blind ass kisser - ANY DAY.

I guess in PICA's world it is completely acceptable to go on Social Media and lie to prove your point and it is totally acceptable in PICA's world to say City Leaders lack morals if they don't fund pet projects you support and it is acceptable in PICA's world to be an arrogant asshole if someone dares to offer you a possible solution to get funding for your pet project.

You are a sad person to believe that someone is a buffoon when they are a citizen/taxpayer and dare to question someone who is proposing to spend hundreds of millions to billions of dollar and they should be off limits to questions from the public.

I am curious if you have a Russian background? Does your last name start with a T? Would you describe your race is white, but skin tone is GOLD?

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

There is nothing wrong, at all, in believing in and supporting the BeltLine. However, BRN has been misleading the public with inaccurate information and had not been providing legitimate transportation analysis to support any of their findings (to be fair MARTA was not disclosing this info until recent either and they clearly fudged their BeltLine ridership numbers... but they didn’t include NEW ridership, total constituency % increase in new transit accessibility for each project, nor populations served along the routes). Rather, Gravel and BRN have been discrediting a handful of projects without merit and have been pandering politically to KLB/SW Atlanta in order to potentially receive a larger slice of the pie.

Gravel, as a planner, should be encouraging a more ethical review of the projects. I was really disappointed in the presentation he put together and why.

Can you be specific about what you think is misleading?

It is not the goal to "discredit" another project. The MoreMarta tax will not generate enough revenue to build everything that we want. We all know this. In light of that, the question becomes how to best priortize those 2.5 billion to best benefit the city and its residents. BRN believes that the answer to that question is the Beltline as do I.