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  #741  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2014, 8:04 PM
njaohnt njaohnt is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Let's just say you wouldn't be in charge for very long.
The people in charge seem like they want another property tax increase. Why would a gas tax increase and bus fare increase be different?
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  #742  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2014, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by njaohnt View Post
Why would a gas tax increase and bus fare increase be different?
Because increasing the cost of fuel increases the cost of everything. Everything you purchase, everything you eat was brought to you on a truck. This type of thing also hits poor people the hardest, in a province where we tax the shit out of the poor.
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  #743  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2014, 10:19 PM
njaohnt njaohnt is offline
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Because increasing the cost of fuel increases the cost of everything. Everything you purchase, everything you eat was brought to you on a truck. This type of thing also hits poor people the hardest, in a province where we tax the shit out of the poor.
Trucking companies are rich. They put their heavy trucks on cheap asphalt road. The road get bumpy, the people complain, the property tax goes up, and poor who don't have a car end up paying for roads. The money has to come from somewhere. Subsidising roads means subsidising trucking companies. They have enough money.

Taxing poor people less just makes them lazy. You get what you pay for. You don't get what you don't pay for. If food is too expensive, grow your own. If anything is too expensive, make it yourself. If you can't make it, someone can, and they won't have to transport it across the world to get it to you. Subsidising roads is messing with the free market, and you must be very careful before messing with the free market.

Subsidising roads encourages us to rely on imports. Low gas tax means more distance between us and where we get our stuff from. High gas tax effects the poor much less than high property tax. The money has to come from somewhere.

If it were more expensive to live, people would not work for $10 per hour. We need to encourage entrepreneurship. Otherwise the middle class will become poor as we subsidise, and subsidise. If things are too expensive, it is not the government's fault, unless taxes are coming from the wrong source, and property tax is the wrong source. If your job doesn't pay enough, go build a business that does make enough.

Transportation is at an artificially deflated price. If we want Centreport to work, we need to get the real price of transportation. Some would say that high gas tax means Centreport would work less, but that is incorrect. If the whole country(and the US) had high gas tax, then Centreport would work better, because they will get their stuff from us, instead of China which is far away.
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  #744  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2014, 12:59 AM
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^ I'm sure you can explain how to grow your own broccoli in the winter.

You really do need to get out of your Mom's basement and try to understand how the world works.
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  #745  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2014, 4:57 AM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is online now
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^ I'm sure you can explain how to grow your own broccoli in the winter.

You really do need to get out of your Mom's basement and try to understand how the world works.
Libertarians/conspiracy theorists are the worst.
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  #746  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2014, 4:13 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Libertarians/conspiracy theorists are the worst.
Please don't lump Libertarians in with this guy... I would like to think I have a cogent thought every once in a while.

I don't completely disagree that transportation prices would be a step in the right direction, but the problem with that as it currently stands the City forces mandates that promote the automobile as the sole source of transportation. You can't force automobiles on someone then force them to pay more for using them.

Using property tax to pay for transportation creates a disconnect between cause and effect. It would be like having one big bill for all your home services (hydro, water, cable tv, internet, home phone, etc.). You wouldn't realize how much (or little) certain things cost if they weren't on seperate bills. Right now everyone pays their property tax bill and they get certain services; they don't know if they are getting value for the money (but I'm certain most would say they are not).

The other problem I have with property tax funding transportation is that we can't adjust our habits to pay less property tax; if it was an increase in gas tax I could theoretically drive less and spend less (ignoring the whole "all our products come from transport).
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  #747  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 1:05 AM
njaohnt njaohnt is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
^ I'm sure you can explain how to grow your own broccoli in the winter.
You can grow food inside. You just need a good window. If you don't you can store food from summer, or rent some sort of winter greenhouse. We don't really have any of those, because food prices aren't high enough(yet).
To enjoy the all benefits of a dense city, you need to get rid of your car, and move where you work, so that you rarely drive, and only take the bus once in a while. Everyone wants that to be a real option, but property taxes that pay for roads and transit are making that option not existent for 99% of Winnipeg. You just don't save enough money.

Under what basis do you suggest that subsidising transportation is a good thing? We are messing with the free market, and you need a very good reason to mess with the free market. What is the reason?

SUBSIDISING TRANSPORTATION MOVES PEOPLE FARTHER FROM WHERE THEY WORK.
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  #748  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 1:52 AM
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Okay, so I checked out the new flyover going from Kenaston to Bishop Grandin. It's really not bad. Although, since it's the first week, people are very confused, despite numerous signs, and even the LED beater board saying to stick to the right, vast number of cars continue to go through the old way, expecting to continue on.

Nope.

Bridgewater traffic has suddenly increased since the flyover opened, and a lot of cars are going through the new portion of Kenaston, all the way to North Town Centre Road. Although you now have many drivers "lost" through the neighbourhood, and making numerous turns through roundabouts and temporary dead ends.
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  #749  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by njaohnt View Post
Under what basis do you suggest that subsidising transportation is a good thing?
Because I like cars. Subsidizing roads makes my food cheaper so I have more money in my pocket to allow me to enjoy my hobbies and save more for retirement. Also so I can buy more, cooler and faster cars. And car parts.
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  #750  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 1:55 PM
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^ So no good reason Riverman? I'm disappointed.

Subsidies for transportation (whether for roads or transit) are important for the simple reason that you need some degree of mobility in the labour pool. It's tough to reach your maximum economic potential as an employee when you're limited to employers that are within a 5 km bike ride of your house. I mean, if your company shuts down or lays people off or whatever, the only options are to consider an employer close to your previous one (assuming you live nearby) or to pack your family up and move. This is also a problem considering that major educational, recreational, medical and other institutions are located in various parts of the city. Then there's the issue of supporting local commerce and industry by allowing for the movement of goods and services. Without that, a lot of employers would move away or go under.

I'd agree that we have had a historical imbalance in transportation spending that has favoured roads to the great detriment of the city overall, but trapping people in their neighbourhoods like Mumbai slum dwellers is not the way to go either.
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  #751  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
^ So no good reason Riverman? I'm disappointed.
One would be after such a sarcastic answer.

While I thank you for writing all that out Esquire, why would you even have to? The answer is so bloody obvious all you really needed to write is the last third of the last sentence.
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  #752  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 4:15 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
^ So no good reason Riverman? I'm disappointed.

Subsidies for transportation (whether for roads or transit) are important for the simple reason that you need some degree of mobility in the labour pool. It's tough to reach your maximum economic potential as an employee when you're limited to employers that are within a 5 km bike ride of your house. I mean, if your company shuts down or lays people off or whatever, the only options are to consider an employer close to your previous one (assuming you live nearby) or to pack your family up and move. This is also a problem considering that major educational, recreational, medical and other institutions are located in various parts of the city. Then there's the issue of supporting local commerce and industry by allowing for the movement of goods and services. Without that, a lot of employers would move away or go under.

I'd agree that we have had a historical imbalance in transportation spending that has favoured roads to the great detriment of the city overall, but trapping people in their neighbourhoods like Mumbai slum dwellers is not the way to go either.
This isn't exactly a counter argument to what you are saying but what is wrong with asking that an asset (the road, bus, bike lane, sidewalk, etc.) create a real return on investment? Streets like Corydon and Osborne (among others) cost a quarter of the costs of new regional streets, are functional, and generate sufficient tax revenues* to pay for themselves. Streets like Kenaston are overly wide, and in no way increase property values to a point where they can generate tax revenue sufficient to be self-sustained.

Why shouldn't we just build more areas like Corydon/Osborne instead of using the excess taxes to subsidize others? Further, why are we trying to control the development in Corydon/Osborne when it's already doing a good job?

*Edit: this isn't exactly true -- the road doesn't generate the tax revenue, it allows for development of the lands that do.
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  #753  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 5:30 PM
alittle1 alittle1 is offline
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Traditionally, people lived where they worked (hunted, for that matter). In older times in Moldova, Mumbai, and the old country, people lived where they found game, shelter and water. When one or more of these things gave out they moved on to 'greener pastures'. The young were energetic and looking for new love carried forward, seeking new places. The old were tired and set in their ways stayed, became slum dwellers or sat by the side of the road and looked for handouts, or waited for their grandchildren to return.

Over the years, this style of living became paramount with the exception of the Nomadic tribes drifting from food source to food source. The travelers came through, taking the cream of the crop and leaving the spoils in their wake. The only thing that they did that was of any relevance was, they mixed the gene pool up, thereby giving a town of a variance of tall, short, skinny, fat people. Intellect grew and people learned new ways of doing things, new ideas blossomed, and new enterprise thrived. Truly epic.

In the last 100 years, people have become more socialistic and welcome travelers into their fold. The underlying reason being that they want to exploit their knowledge and benefit themselves. Governments and financial institutions are the largest players when it comes to exploitation. For example:

"Because I like cars. Subsidizing roads makes my food cheaper so I have more money in my pocket to allow me to enjoy my hobbies and save more for retirement. Also so I can buy more, cooler and faster cars. And car parts."

Two things, the government doesn't subsidize roads, its your tax dollars, and the banks only pay 1.15% interest, but charge you 19% interest rate on debits.

Manitoba is the only place where they pay 20B$ to build a road to move traffic, and then over the next 10 years, spend another 10B to slow you down with stop signs/lights, crosswalks, traffic-calmed streets, pot holes, pavement repairs and re-construction.

Think about it, ever see a poor contractor?
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  #754  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 5:52 PM
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and the banks only pay 1.15% interest, but charge you 19% interest rate on debits.
I suggest you change banks.
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  #755  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 5:53 PM
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The invention of farming is really what changed the world. Farming allowed people to stay in one place, as opposed to travelling the land seeking food. This allowed cultures to grow and people to become smarter. We still live in farming communities to this day. Anywhere you go, save for the Arctic, there are farms. And the rest, as they say, is history.
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  #756  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 6:11 PM
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On a related note, is it just me or are Moldova's roads coming up a lot around here lately?







I guess I can see why.
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  #757  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 6:25 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
Two things, the government doesn't subsidize roads, its your tax dollars.
Every road project that I have seen come to council, no matter the funding mechanism, has some element of debt financing. It's not "our" tax dollars, it's our children. Our children are subsidizing us (just as I have subsidized my parents).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
Manitoba is the only place where they pay 20B$ to build a road to move traffic, and then over the next 10 years, spend another 10B to slow you down with stop signs/lights, crosswalks, traffic-calmed streets, pot holes, pavement repairs and re-construction.
It's called learning from your mistakes.
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  #758  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 6:33 PM
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Cyro Cyro is offline
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Reg: Moldova

No, the comparisons are being used by a select few, to over exaggerate the infrastructure problems that this Province is facing.

Similar to a reference using Winnipeg's crime rate compared to downtown Baghdad. It's over the top but trying to reinforce their point in whatever manner they can.

PS: Can you please add link sources to your images, they all looked like roads I've seen in Manitoba, hard to tell without a source and looking at the code.
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  #759  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 6:34 PM
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Portmanteau Portmanteau is offline
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On a related note, is it just me or are Moldova's roads coming up a lot around here lately?







I guess I can see why.
Looks like the road through Whiteshell Provincial Park.
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  #760  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2014, 10:45 PM
Wpg transit 163-1 Wpg transit 163-1 is offline
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I saw a news report last night about how some drivers were confused with the bishop grandin flyover and were saying the sign weren't up but I know that's a lie cause the sign were up and ready for the covers to be removed days before the flyover opened and I even saw the covers being removed an hour before the flyover opened. I think people didn't read the sign and would rather blame the city then say I made a mistake
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