CFL Current/Future Franchises

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

See, thats the problem. We can, and have done things without the Americans in regards to the CFL. Save for a 3 year debacle, the CFL has been totally Canadian for 100 years. Whats wrong with expanding to the States? Given that there is a void of a professional summer league and that the CFL has an American TV deal now, doesn't it seem like an opportunity to expand the fan base of the game? The league could easily move into smaller to mid-sized American markets closer to Canada that are football friendly, without a pro team. I'm not saying "oh the CFL should put teams in Las Vegas and LA!", I'm saying that along with Halifax, Quebec, and Kelowna, the CFL should consider markets like Portland, Oregon and Rochester, New York for expansion.

I'm going to have to agree. Beyond the obvious QC and ONE team out east, there are no markets that can make the CFL healthier. There is just no way a second team out east (worst idea in this thread) or Saskatoon etc can bring in enough revenue from increased sponsership to offset the cost of dividing a limited TV between more teams.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

See, thats the problem. We can, and have done things without the Americans in regards to the CFL. Save for a 3 year debacle, the CFL has been totally Canadian for 100 years. Whats wrong with expanding to the States? Given that there is a void of a professional summer league and that the CFL has an American TV deal now, doesn't it seem like an opportunity to expand the fan base of the game? The league could easily move into smaller to mid-sized American markets closer to Canada that are football friendly, without a pro team. I'm not saying "oh the CFL should put teams in Las Vegas and LA!", I'm saying that along with Halifax, Quebec, and Kelowna, the CFL should consider markets like Portland, Oregon and Rochester, New York for expansion.

Well, when one considers that the last successful expansion for the CFL into a new market was the BC Lions in 1954(!), I’d say that expanding the league is an excruciating process. This league doesn’t appear to operate as most other pro sports leagues do.

All the more reason for a prudent expansion strategy focused on Canadian markets where there is at least some knowledge of Canadian football. This would make Quebec City and somewhere in Atlantic Canada the immediate priorities.

The CFL cannot afford to focus its energy on cockamie rose-coloured schemes to convince Upstate New Yorkers or North Dakotans to buy into its product.

All of its energy must be focused where it counts, on two or three places that are most likely to make it work.

Going too broad will only ensure nothing will happen, or as with the previous U.S. fiasco, fail miserably.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm convinced that both Moncton and Halifax can each support a team, but if the Maritimes get 2 teams, the one in Moncton will have to come first. If Halifax gets the team first, people will argue that there's no way that Moncton can pull it off by itself. They'll be relegated to watching from the sidelines for decades.

I agree with this statement 100%.

Atlantic Canada can support two teams. The combined population of NB+NS+PE is not much less than the combined population of MB+SK. They have two teams, why can't we? Halifax would be very much like Winnipeg and Moncton would be more like Regina. The catchment area of the two cities would not overlap too much but there would be an intense natural rivalry that would help to feed the football frenzy.

Having said this, I feel that it is of paramount importance that the first Maritime franchise go to Moncton. If Halifax wins out, then there will never be a franchise in Moncton.

I fully agree that expansion should be prudent and carefully planned. Nobody wants to dilute the talent pool in the CFL too much or upset the league's economic apple cart. Eventually a 16 team league is possible.

Ottawa first (2013 isn't it), then Quebec City (?2015) then a team in the east (hopefully Moncton 2018)............after that, we'll see.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, when one considers that the last successful expansion for the CFL into a new market was the BC Lions in 1954(!), I’d say that expanding the league is an excruciating process. This league doesn’t appear to operate as most other pro sports leagues do.

All the more reason for a prudent expansion strategy focused on Canadian markets where there is at least some knowledge of Canadian football. This would make Quebec City and somewhere in Atlantic Canada the immediate priorities.

The CFL cannot afford to focus its energy on cockamie rose-coloured schemes to convince Upstate New Yorkers or North Dakotans to buy into its product.

All of its energy must be focused where it counts, on two or three places that are most likely to make it work.

Going too broad will only ensure nothing will happen, or as with the previous U.S. fiasco, fail miserably.

Lets look at this another way, the CFL can't afford to take the gamble, but at the same time, but what you're forgetting is that the States is the largest gridiron football market in the world. There seems to be an opening to market a summer/autumn league in the States. At this point in time, in the interest of expansion and stability, so the CFL can't really afford not to take the gamble either.

Yeah, we're all worried we're going to lose a bit of our identity to the States. And I'm sure we're all worried that the Rochester Jeffersons or the Portland Roses are going to turn into the next Shreveport Pirates or Memphis Mad Dogs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

Lets look at this another way, the CFL can't afford to take the gamble, but at the same time, but what you're forgetting is that the States is the largest gridiron football market in the world. There seems to be an opening to market a summer/autumn league in the States. At this point in time, in the interest of expansion and stability, so the CFL can't really afford not to take the gamble either.

The U.S. may be the biggest gridiron football market in the world, but time and time again (including the failed CFL stateside expansion) we have seen that most American football fans do not consider Canadian football/CFL football to be "real" football. No more than most Canadian hockey fans would consider ringette or bandy as equivalent to hockey and worthy of their interest, much less their sports entertainment dollar.

Originally Posted by Distill3d

Yeah, we're all worried we're going to lose a bit of our identity to the States.

To be honest, I am not much of Canadian nationalist and losing part of my identity to the States is not a big concern of mine.

I just think that the CFL should be more concentrated on those Canadians who are indifferent to its sport (and this is a huge untapped market, as there are millions of Canadians who have tuned out the CFL, even many who call themselves fans of gridiron football) rather than chase after converts in the U.S.

With a few exceptions (Saskatchewan and Quebec being the main ones), the CFL has little or no visibility or promotion outside of the cities that have clubs. Even in provinces with clubs like Ontario, as soon as you are 20 minutes away from the stadium, the CFL drops off the map. And that is not to mention Atlantic Canada...

Most pro sports leagues don't limit their promotional activities and visibility to cities with teams: they spread the word across the country. The three biggest American sports leagues have teams in less than 50% of the U.S. states, yet they are highly visible across the country. The entire country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Atlantic Canada can support two teams. The combined population of NB+NS+PE is not much less than the combined population of MB+SK.

Funny, I was just doing this calculation in my mind as well.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ottawa first (2013 isn't it), then Quebec City (?2015) then a team in the east (hopefully Moncton 2018)............after that, we'll see.

I think Atlantic Canada may get a team before Quebec City. There seems to be more stadium and CFL talk in the Maritimes than in Quebec City at the moment, where most of the attention and energy (and $$$) in the next few years is going to be focused on getting back into the NHL.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The U.S. may be the biggest gridiron football market in the world, but time and time again (including the failed CFL stateside expansion) we have seen that most American football fans do not consider Canadian football/CFL football to be "real" football.

The success of the Baltimore Colts/CFLers/Stallions is what helped lead to the Cleveland Browns becoming the Baltimore Ravens. Mind you, the Baltimore team was perfect at the time. They successfully filled the market in a football starved American city, and were embraced by the city of Baltimore. After the CFL chose not to continue with its short lived American expansion, reverting from 5 American teams to 2, the San Antonio Texans folded and the NFL moved into Baltimore forcing the team to look elsewhere (landing in Montreal).

Suffice to say, IF the NFL didn't move into Baltimore, I believe the Stallions would still be around today.

I just think that the CFL should be more concentrated on those Canadians who are indifferent to its sport (and this is a huge untapped market, as there are millions of Canadians who have tuned out the CFL, even many who call themselves fans of gridiron football) rather than chase after converts in the U.S.

With a few exceptions (Saskatchewan and Quebec being the main ones), the CFL has little or no visibility or promotion outside of the cities that have clubs. Even in provinces with clubs like Ontario, as soon as you are 20 minutes away from the stadium, the CFL drops off the map. And that is not to mention Atlantic Canada...

Most pro sports leagues don't limit their promotional activities and visibility to cities with teams: they spread the word across the country. The three biggest American sports leagues have teams in less than 50% of the U.S. states, yet they are highly visible across the country. The entire country.

I agree with you. The CFL doesn't market itself very well outside of the cities that have teams. However, the Calgary Stampeders market to everyone south of Red Deer, and the Eskimos have everyone north of Red Deer to market to. Both teams to a fairly good job of marketing themselves, even in seasons when they have not had much success on the field.

This may contradict what I've said about potential American expansion, or it may help support it. The Toronto Argonauts are the biggest disaster in the CFL at the moment, both on and off the field. On the field, they can't win. Off the field, they're poorly marketed. I think that the Argos need to hire whatever marketing firm the Maple Leafs hire because they know how to take a total loser and make them look like the prom king.

Football (Canadian or American) seems to be on the downward trend in Toronto. I understand that there are still seats left for the Buffalo Bills vs. New York Jets game tonight?

[kirjtc2]

The only reason Baltimore supported the CFL was because they knew they could use it as a springboard back into the NFL. Once they got the Ravens, there was no need for the Stallions.

The sense I get in NB is that people would watch the CFL if they had a team here. The game is growing tremendously on an amateur level and there's also talk of bringing back the varsity teams at UNB and (I think) UdeM as well. But we only have the same type of access to the CFL as we do to the NFL (TV), and especially with the Patriots beamed up here every week through the Boston affiliates, guess which brand people choose.

And yes, I believe there are tickets left for the Bills-Jets game. Rogers has a deal to eat the cost of all unsold tickets, otherwise it wouldn't be able to be shown on Toronto TV due to NFL rules...and that would work wonders for their marketing plan!

[Urban_Genius]

I'm not so convinced Toronto is such a lousy market. The media is unfair at times, but that team is atrocious. I think your local pee-wee team has more talent then that team. 3-15? Yeah 'cause that's something to be excited about. It took them a full calendar year to win a home game, and they've only won 3 games since last labor day. Their ownership is bad (even though they had good intentions) and management is by far the worst in the CFL.

Yet they still averaged 26 thousand people, once again lead the city in attendance per game (I know, I know). Give them a decent team and they'll be up to the 33-35k mark I'd guess.

[le calmar]

Sold out or not, I'm going to watch the game tonight

TORONTO - T.O. has given Toronto a ringing endorsement as an NFL city.

Flamboyant receiver Terrell Owens and his Buffalo Bills teammates held their final walkthrough at Rogers Centre on Wednesday in preparation for their game Thursday night against their AFC East rivals, the New York Jets. The contest will be Owens' first in Canada but the third of eight -- five regular season, three exhibition -- Buffalo will play in Toronto through 2012.

"Definitely," Owens said when asked if Toronto could support an NFL franchise. "I think once the team is established in Toronto I'm sure the fans would gravitate to the team and support it.

"Winning obviously gets people into the seats. It's all about how you market the team and the NFL is marketing the game. I'm not sure what to expect. This is my first time here and it's going to be an experience for me probably as well as some of the other guys. I'm hoping that we can get a lot of those Toronto fans to root for the Bills."

The Bills are looking for their first win in Toronto. They dropped an exhibition contest to Pittsburgh in August 2008 before losing 16-3 to Miami in December in the first regular-season game of the Toronto series.

Naturally, Owens sees himself as the perfect pitchman to make the NFL work in Toronto.

"Anything is up for an experiment," he said. "I think it could happen, I think it could flourish with the right type of marketing and right type of players here in a city like Toronto . . . like myself."

Owens, who turns 36 on Monday, heads into Thursday's game on a roll, having accumulated 378 yards receiving and two touchdowns in Buffalo's last three games.

Yet even with the presence of Owens, two Canadian players and a head coach who grew up in Toronto, the Bills-Jets game has flown under the radar this year.

The contest has been announced as a sellout, yet tickets ranging in price from $99 to $275 are still available on the Bills in Toronto website. But other online ticket agencies were listing tickets as low as $30 for seats in the 500 level to $388 for those in the lower bowl of the 100 level between the 10- and 25-yard lines.

There have been some TV ads promoting the game but little buzz has been generated. That certainly wouldn't be the case if the game was being played in western New York, where 80,000 rabid football fans would cram into Ralph Wilson Stadium to cheer their team on against a conference rival.

"This is a situation where the league is really trying to expand the NFL internationally and so this is a stepping stone for it," Owens said. "Again, American football is not the most popular sport here in Canada so that's to be expected.

"But again, I'm sure if we were to play more games here and get all the fans involved and if Canadians knew more about American football then I'm sure they would come out and support it. But this is a stepping stone and a starting point for us."

That certainly wasn't the case in October 2007 when news broke that Rogers Communications had paid US$78 million to stage the eight games in Toronto. The expectation was the tickets would sell, regardless of price, which in turn helped fuel speculation on both sides of the border the contests were the first steps in the Bills relocating to southern Ontario.

The Bills in Toronto series -- the moniker given to the games -- also sent shockwaves through the CFL as league officials were concerned about the impact NFL games would have not only on the Toronto Argonauts and Hamilton Tiger-Cats but league as a whole.

The Ticats chose to have nothing to do with the Bills in Toronto series whereas the Argos ownership agreed to give their season-ticket holders first crack as also securing tickets to see Buffalo play.

But high ticket prices -- an average of $183 per seat -- took much of the lustre off the series in Toronto, especially when the average ticket price for a Bills home game in Orchard Park, N.Y., is $51.

So, too, was the NFL experience in Toronto. The inability for fans to take part in tailgating combined with the Rogers Centre roof being closed took much of the home-field feel away for many Bills fans because playing indoors meant the normally cold and windy December conditions at Ralph Wilson Stadium wouldn't impact the game against a warm-weather team like Miami.

Also, there were also thousands of empty seats for Buffalo's exhibition game against Pittsburgh.

This year, Bills in Toronto series organizers cut ticket prices by an average of 17 per cent and offered more than 11,000 tickets for less than $99. Last year, only 4,700 tickets were under $99.

Rogers Communications also offered partial refunds to those who had bought seats in 2008 and were affected by the price reduction.

Trouble is, this year's game hardly elicits great excitement.

New York (5-6) is tied with Miami (5-6) for second in the AFC East, two games behind the front-running New England Patriots. The Bills (4-7) are in the division basement.

But the two teams are coming off wins. The Jets beat the Carolina Panthers 17-6 on Sunday while Buffalo dispatched Miami 31-14.

Buffalo and New York met earlier this season, with the Bills winning 16-13 in overtime Oct. 18.

Thursday night's game will involve two Canadian players, with third-year defensive end Corey Mace of Port Moody, B.C., suiting up for Buffalo and rookie linebacker Jamaal Westerman of Brampton, Ont., in uniform with the Jets.

Also, Rex Ryan, New York's colourful rookie head coach, spent 12 years growing up in Toronto (1965-77).

The Jets will play their first regular-season game in Canada and just their second game overall. New York beat Cleveland 11-7 in a pre-season game at Montreal's Olympic Stadium in 1988.

The six-foot-three, 287-pound Mace will make his third appearance at Rogers Centre, dressing for last season's games. Many Bills players complained last year's contest didn't have the feel of a home game, especially considering the vast number of spectators who were clad in Dolphins' colours. But Mace says that's not the club's focus heading into Thursday night's showdown.

"We're focused on one goal and that's beating the New York Jets," Mace said. "We'd love to hear it and hear them razzing when (Jets) on offence, especially us defensive guys.

"Either way, we're really focused and zoning in on what our job is."

Mace, 23, registered his first career interception in last week's win over Miami and joked with reporters about whether he would've preferred to register the career milestone before a Canadian crowd.

"To me, it's just real special being able to be in the NFL as a Canadian and come back to home soil," he said. "A lot of guys get to go back and play in their home towns but being from Canada you would never have thought that until last year.

"I've been here for all three games and am very fortunate."

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Sold out or not, I'm going to watch the game tonight

I probably will too. Though, the Flames are playing Phoenix tonight...

[Acajack]

I don't necessarily want to see it happen but economically the NFL would do fine in Toronto. NFL football is probably the second most-followed sport in the GTA after NHL hockey. The Blue Jays and Raptors do OK and their sports aren’t as prestigious (in a North American context) as the NFL is.

The Blue Jays may not be breaking attendance records, but they are still doing better than 8 U.S.-based teams and are close to another half-dozen. They are certainly not a headache for MLB like the Expos were or like Phoenix is for the NHL.

[rapswin!]

The Raptors have been in the top 10 for attendance for most thier history in the NBA.

[circle33]

Am I the only one that finds it odd that Torontonians claim to be too sophisticated for CFL football while claiming the NFL experience Rogers has imported is not up to standard because they can't drink beer in a parking lot before hand ?

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Sold out or not, I'm going to watch the game tonight

Originally Posted by Distill3d

I probably will too. Though, the Flames are playing Phoenix tonight...

Drat, I forgot about the game tonight. Now I have a dilema - watch a (probably boring) NFL game, or watch a (potentially fantastic) college game that has major implications. Oregon-Oregon State, winner goes to the Rose Bowl.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by circle33

Am I the only one that finds it odd that Torontonians claim to be too sophisticated for CFL football while claiming the NFL experience Rogers has imported is not up to standard because they can't drink beer in a parking lot before hand ?

NOW I understand why no one is going to the game...

[newflyer]

Watching the second NFL regular season in Toronto I am absolutely shocked how quite it is in the Skydome(Rogers Centre). Maybe those in attendance don't know the rules or were expecting something else.

Maybe there was a big sign on the jumbo-tron.. "Shhhh .. people are trying to sleep."

[Distill3d]

For some reason, I'm kind of surprised they're using an NFL field. I'm not sure why that is. I just thought being in Toronto and all, maybe they'd play a one off game and use the Canadian field. It just looks wrong, a CFL stadium using an NFL sized field.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Watching the second NFL regular season in Toronto I am absolutely shocked how quite it is in the Skydome(Rogers Centre). Maybe those in attendance don't know the rules or were expecting something else.

Maybe there was a big sign on the jumbo-tron.. "Shhhh .. people are trying to sleep."

NFL broadcasts always turn the crowd noise down... but yeah, the Skydome errr, Rogers Center crowd tonight looks to be 60% Bills and 40% Jets.

Not a bad game thus far!

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

NFL broadcasts always turn the crowd noise down... but yeah, the Skydome errr, Rogers Center crowd tonight looks to be 60% Bills and 40% Jets.

Not a bad game thus far!

I not sure about them turning down crowd noise, as you could hear the PA announcements clear as could be.

I don't really blame the crowd though .. that was a boring game. Must have been the NFL....