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[BroadandMarket]

[QUOTE=thoughtcriminal;10046167]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center.
Great post, just one point of information. The Spectrum opened in 1967, so it was almost 30 years old when the Flyers and Sixers moved. And it stayed open another 10 years hosting the Phantoms AHL hockey team, concerts, and other events, often as an overflow alternate when the Wells Fargo was booked. I believe Springsteen even played in both arenas on one tour due to scheduling weirdness.

Oops yeah that was a typo. The Spectrum was 29 years old, not 19 like I previously said. That brings up a good point as well. When the Spectrum was going to be demolished, we were promised a much bigger Xfinity live complex with stores, restaurants, bars and hotel. Obviously that never happened. Xfinity Live is better than nothing, but not great. It doesn't really interact well with WFC because they never built half of it.



And then look at the other entertainment districts Cordish has done and it's insane how crappy ours is. Our Live Casino is by far the ugliest and most poorly placed. So whether this is Cordish or Comcast Spectacor, I just don't have that much hope for their "vision" by the stadiums and I'm sure the Sixers are on the same page.

https://www.cordish.com/portfolio

[reparcsyks]

Dude, please post a trigger warning if you're going to make me look at the Live! logo. That shit is soooooooo depressing.

[wanderer34]

[QUOTE=BroadandMarket;10046182]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Oops yeah that was a typo. The Spectrum was 29 years old, not 19 like I previously said. That brings up a good point as well. When the Spectrum was going to be demolished, we were promised a much bigger Xfinity live complex with stores, restaurants, bars and hotel. Obviously that never happened. Xfinity Live is better than nothing, but not great. It doesn't really interact well with WFC because they never built half of it.

And then look at the other entertainment districts Cordish has done and it's insane how crappy ours is. Our Live Casino is by far the ugliest and most poorly placed. So whether this is Cordish or Comcast Spectacor, I just don't have that much hope for their "vision" by the stadiums and I'm sure the Sixers are on the same page.

I believe the problem with the Sports Complex was that it was designed with the automobile in mind, which is why Pattison Ave, Packer Ave, Broad St south of Oregon Ave, and many of the side streets are 2-3 lanes each way. It's a tough sell to make the Sports Complex "an urban paradise" when the Sports Complex was designed in the 60's, when the automobile was king.

Even today, it's still a very tough undertaking to make the Sports Complex as palatable for pedestrians and straphangers looking to leave their cars at home just to take mass transportation. You can create some high senility housing, but the South Philly residents don't want anything too dense in their back of the woods. You just can't please everybody in this situation. But either way, Philadelphia has the best sports complex in the nation, if not the world!!!

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Philadelphia has the best sports complex in the nation, if not the world!!!

Cmon Man too many Cocktails in Miami?

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I can't believe how many times this has to be explained. Comcast Spectacor owns the Wells Fargo Center and the 76ers are tenants there. The 76ers want to own an arena and generate their own revenue instead of renting. They want to host concerts, events, NCAA tournament games, Villanova games etc. A brand new stadium at 11th and Market would instantly be more desirable for all of these events and Philly is a big enough city that can support 2 arenas.

I'm well aware that Comcast Spectacor are the owners of the Flyers and Josh Harris is the owner of the 76ers. IMHO, the Sixers and the Flyers should've been owned by Comcast Spectacor, but Ed Snider sold the 76ers to Harris, which is why we're now at this mess of trying to shoehorn a new arena. The reason why the 76ers were sold in 2011? We'll never know! All I know is that if ever there was a mistake during the Snider era, it was selling the Sixers.

Especially considering that the NBA is a much more lucrative sports league than the NHL, regardless of how the 76ers person season to season, the 76ers should've never been sold but Snider made his decision (https://www.essentiallysports.com/nb...team-and-more/), and now Philadelphia is grappling with practically displacing an ethnic enclave in Chinatown, all to host NBA, NCAA, and special events because "we" want a downtown arena at the expense of the Asian community.

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center. NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Miami, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Detroit, Atlanta, Toronto, Montreal and Washington DC all have downtown arenas. So are they all wrong?

Madison Square Garden is the oldest arena in the NBA and the NHL. It's never going to be demolished because it has the same stature as Fenway Park and Wrigley Field in MLB and Lambeau Field in the NFL. The original MSG was on 23rd and Broadway until the new MSG was placed on the site of the recently demolished Penn Station in 1968.

Boston replaced it's Garden with the adjacent TD Garden (the the Fleetcenter), Montreal replaced the Forum with the Bell Centre, Toronto replaced Maple Leaf Gardens with the Air Canada Centre, Atlanta replaced the Omni with the State Farm Arena, Miami replaced the old Miami Arena with the Kaseya Arena, and Brooklyn, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, San Francisco all managed to build new arenas because the land associated with those arenas were either once light industrial or sparsely populated in the case with Detroit, so there was little pushback to build an arena at those locations.

The only resistance towards building a downtown Rena was in DC, and with many East Coast cities, there was Chinatowns from Boston to DC. The Chinatowns in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia are currently intact as we speak. The other Chinatown that used to be in Newark, Baltimore, and DC are either a distant memory or in the case of DC, gentrified and Disneyfied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinat...shington,_D.C.

https://wamu.org/story/17/12/01/20-y...ion-chinatown/

https://asamnews.com/2023/02/01/less...redevelopment/

https://www.phillyvoice.com/76er-sta...tol-one-arena/

https://www.phillyvoice.com/76er-sta...tol-one-arena/

JFK stadium was built in 1926. We're coming up on 100 years of the sports complex and still Xfinity Live and a shitty casino are the only things to be built in an abyss of parking lots. I could see an apartment building or some bars being built in the next 10 years but it'll always be a car centric spot.

Then you have the fashion district. A dying mall with a bankrupt owner. The 76ers can save them by buying them out of 1/2 of their space which is a more realistic amount of commercial space. Market East was hit harder than any other area of Center City during the pandemic. Marshalls, Rite Aid, Century 21, Target, Starbucks, Subway, Burger King, DSW and many more stores have all closed in that vicinity. Commercial/retail is doing terribly, especially in Market East. The entire south side of Market Street from 11th to 8th is run down or boarded up besides the Federal building. Massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. It is quite possibly the most well connected public transit intersection in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago. 13 regional rail lines, Patco, MFL, Broad-Ridge Spur and Broad Street line is only a 5 minute walk.

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

They're also adding a 400 foot residential tower...which eliminates a lot of the supposed "deadzone" people thought the stadium would make. I'd encourage you to hang out at 10th and Market on a Tuesday night in February right now and see how vibrant it currently is...now imagine 20,000 people going to a 76ers game or concert. Getting dinner before and drinks after.

Market St from 6th to 10th St has been a dead zone at night, and the only reason is because Market East was the traditional center for the area's department stores such as Strawbridge's, Lit Bros, and Gimbels.

An arena can generate up to 20K people, depending on if the games sell out or it much of the arena sells seats, but if it concerns the streetscape, then having a lot of shops plus developing the remaining lots into mixed commercial and residential is a much better offer than having a building which is only going to be used 41 times in a year excluding if the arena hosts concerts and/or special events.

I'm not sold that the arena will revitalize Market East. And even though the PA Convention Center extension to Broad St did take what seemed to be a pretty stable neighborhood, it was a much better risk to take since the PCC operates year round and almost everyday as opposed to building an arena that's only going to host only 41 home games in a year.

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

If you're on this forum and care about urbanism there is no logical way you can tell me this isn't a good project for the city. 1.3 billion investment! The 76ers will not spend that much and not clean up the area. They will also dramatically help MFL ridership while I'm sure pressuring Septa and the city to clean up the El. In San Francisco, your ticket to a Warriors game includes a Muni train ticket with it. Hopefully the 76ers do the same.

We all participate because we want better cities, that's no secret, but this is the wrong way of approaching urbanism by shoehorning an arena w/o the regards of what the local communities in CC wants. People do matter and there doesn't seem to be any consideration for the history of not just Chinatown, but the city of Philadelphia and the communities.

And there is a transit line that's nearby the Sports Complex (BSL). If people are that lazy to take a 10-15 minute walk from Pattison to WFC, then this generation is the laziest I've ever heard of. I do want better, and like I said, Philadelphia hosts the best sports complex in the world because we host all four major sports teams at the same corner, which used to be Broad and Pattison, and even today, we still do, only at 10th and Pattison.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Philadelphia is grappling with practically displacing an ethnic enclave in Chinatown, all to host NBA, NCAA, and special events because "we" want a downtown arena at the expense of the Asian community.

This is not Chinatown and no one is being displaced. We're talking about a dying mall on Market St.

[BroadandMarket]

First off, the arena is not in Chinatown. Chinatown fought the commuter tunnel and Convention Center expansion. The Convention Center expansion is regarded as positive and the commuter tunnel is maybe the single most important transit project in Philadelphia history. Chinatown will fight the 676 capping once they figure out that it's going to make their neighborhood more desirable to developers. DC's Chinatown was dying since the 60s riots. Plus DC has a height restriction street length ratio that ends up limiting buildings around 200 feet. Philly can build up. Chinatown will be fine. If it's not fine, it was Chinese-American building owners who sold out. That's who owns all of the property in Chinatown.

So do you want an empty mall that can't even stay open late because of crime?That's where we're heading. The mall is dying a slow death. Let's say a new developer comes in and wants to build a residential tower...guess what Chinatown would be against that too. This isn't a 2 story row home community in East Passyunk, Point Breeze, West Oak Lane or Olney we're talking about, it's the heart of Center City. Quite possibly the most urban and dense downtown core of any city in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago and on par with Boston and San Francisco.

We aren't NYC. We are the poorest large city in the country. We are not in a position to turn down massive investments. Septa is about to have an annual $240 million shortfall. I see 8 years of union construction and tons of jobs running an arena. Aramark has 721 workers at the Wells Fargo Center and the WFC itself has around 400.

Then we have 20,000 extra people walking around Market East at least 100 days a year, taking Septa and going to businesses. That's 2 million people...maybe they go to Barly in Chinatown for dinner before, maybe they book a hotel at Loews, maybe they get drinks at Iron Hill after the game. The point is...none of these people would have even been there without an arena. Also 100 events a year is a low end estimate...

[JohnIII]

A lot of talk about the Sixer Arena; its mostly one sided but there are arguments for and against it. I'm old enough to remember the Sport Complex being built.

The Eagles stopped playing in Franklin Field around 1970 and the Phillies stopped playing at Connie Mack Stadium around the same time so having stadiums in the heart of the city are in living memory of some of us; maybe not on here though. When the Eagles played at Franklin Field it had a similar appeal and difficulty that this proposed Sixer Arena will because it is near the same Frankford El. That being said; these arguments have been heard before both for and against the Sixer Arena.

I've come to this conclusion; both sides are entrenched on this subject of a Sixers Arena; no argument will change either side; but the danger of disparaging parties that do not agree with whatever side we find ourselves will not help the arguments for or against; it will reinforce the perceptions that may already be assumed.

Let's strive to be civil; this debate is far older than many may actually know.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

First off, the arena is not in Chinatown. Chinatown fought the commuter tunnel and Convention Center expansion. The Convention Center expansion is regarded as positive and the commuter tunnel is maybe the single most important transit project in Philadelphia history. Chinatown will fight the 676 capping once they figure out that it's going to make their neighborhood more desirable to developers. DC's Chinatown was dying since the 60s riots. Plus DC has a height restriction street length ratio that ends up limiting buildings around 200 feet. Philly can build up. Chinatown will be fine. If it's not fine, it was Chinese-American building owners who sold out. That's who owns all of the property in Chinatown.

So do you want an empty mall that can't even stay open late because of crime?That's where we're heading. The mall is dying a slow death. Let's say a new developer comes in and wants to build a residential tower...guess what Chinatown would be against that too. This isn't a 2 story row home community in East Passyunk, Point Breeze, West Oak Lane or Olney we're talking about, it's the heart of Center City. Quite possibly the most urban and dense downtown core of any city in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago and on par with Boston and San Francisco.

We aren't NYC. We are the poorest large city in the country. We are not in a position to turn down massive investments. Septa is about to have an annual $240 million shortfall. I see 8 years of union construction and tons of jobs running an arena. Aramark has 721 workers at the Wells Fargo Center and the WFC itself has around 400.

Then we have 20,000 extra people walking around Market East at least 100 days a year, taking Septa and going to businesses. That's 2 million people...maybe they go to Barly in Chinatown for dinner before, maybe they book a hotel at Loews, maybe they get drinks at Iron Hill after the game. The point is...none of these people would have even been there without an arena. Also 100 events a year is a low end estimate...

Agree with nearly all of this.

But one quibble. I don't know who arbitrarily determined that the population of a large city must be greater than 1M people, but Detroit is the poorest large city in the country.

But I get your point.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Agree with nearly all of this.

But one quibble. I don't know who arbitrarily determined that the population of a large city must be greater than 1M people, but Detroit is the poorest large city in the country.

But I get your point.

It's referring to top 10 population cities in the country.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

This photo makes me hate Park Towne Place more than I already did.

When I was a child, I thought it was public housing from the looks of it.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Every time I see it I just wonder, how'd this happen?

looks like a good place for PARK-SIDE CAFÉS!


Transforming Park Towne Place resized by

I was hopeful the recent renovations would improve the look, but you can't polish a turd.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Deleted (someone beat me to the correct age of the Spectrum).

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

First off, the arena is not in Chinatown. Chinatown fought the commuter tunnel and Convention Center expansion. The Convention Center expansion is regarded as positive and the commuter tunnel is maybe the single most important transit project in Philadelphia history. Chinatown will fight the 676 capping once they figure out that it's going to make their neighborhood more desirable to developers. DC's Chinatown was dying since the 60s riots. Plus DC has a height restriction street length ratio that ends up limiting buildings around 200 feet. Philly can build up. Chinatown will be fine. If it's not fine, it was Chinese-American building owners who sold out. That's who owns all of the property in Chinatown.

...

Yes! There is virtually no talk of this. They say that Chinatown will be dismantled from gentrification. The only people who can screw Chinatown from on this are the Asian people who own nearly ALL of Chinatown!

The only way Chinatown will change is it will be difficult to get a reservation because all the Dim Sum places will be sold out.

Amazing to me how narratives can be so easily twisted these days. People will believe anything.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I was hopeful the recent renovations would improve the look, but you can't polish a turd.

There is/was a restaurant/bar fronting the park but it wasn't very visible and didn't seem to get much traffic.

[reparcsyks]

I have no dog in this fight, but if I owned a restaurant in Chinatown, I think I would be ecstatic at the thought of 20,000 people being a block away. They need to eat and drink, right? Again, I have no dog in this fight, but if the arena were to happen, and I was a business owner, I'd be pushing the 76ers to create two beautiful, well-lit, inviting gateways (one on 11th and one on 10th) to facilitate the pedestrian experience to Chinatown.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

I have no dog in this fight, but if I owned a restaurant in Chinatown, I think I would be ecstatic at the thought of 20,000 people being a block away. They need to eat and drink, right? Again, I have no dog in this fight, but if the arena were to happen, and I was a business owner, I'd be pushing the 76ers to create two beautiful, well-lit, inviting gateways (one on 11th and one on 10th) to facilitate the pedestrian experience to Chinatown.

Not to mention the plethora of parking lots currently dotting the chinatown landscape.
Game/concert premium!

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I'm well aware that Comcast Spectacor are the owners of the Flyers and Josh Harris is the owner of the 76ers. IMHO, the Sixers and the Flyers should've been owned by Comcast Spectacor, but Ed Snider sold the 76ers to Harris, which is why we're now at this mess of trying to shoehorn a new arena. The reason why the 76ers were sold in 2011? We'll never know! All I know is that if ever there was a mistake during the Snider era, it was selling the Sixers.

I mean, he sold them because he was nearing the end of life, didn't care about basketball at all and wanted to focus on his first love, hockey. He ran the 6ers into the ground, they weren't getting butts in the seats, and he couldn't care less about the sport. That aside, it's weird that Comcast still owns the Flyers, they're a big enough company that they should have outgrown them by now, just like Disney did, but that's another matter.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

and now Philadelphia is grappling with practically displacing an ethnic enclave in Chinatown, all to host NBA, NCAA, and special events because "we" want a downtown arena at the expense of the Asian community.

I still don't understand how people are getting displaced by this. Arenas don't generify. That's why people have largely wised up to the tax payer money grabs - they don't provide a return to the community. The myth has been exposed and the only people peddling it are billionaires still looking for handouts and Chinatown proponents. Strange bedfellows.

It can have a positive impact on the neighborhood, but displacing people is a jump.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I'm not sold that the arena will revitalize Market East. And even though the PA Convention Center extension to Broad St did take what seemed to be a pretty stable neighborhood, it was a much better risk to take since the PCC operates year round and almost everyday as opposed to building an arena that's only going to host only 41 home games in a year.

It would host far more than 41 games a year. I don't have the numbers anymore since I've switched industries, but in the 2010's I know the WFC was one of the busiest arenas in the country between sports, concerts, and other events. They host events the majority of the year, not just a little over 1 month.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

And there is a transit line that's nearby the Sports Complex (BSL). If people are that lazy to take a 10-15 minute walk from Pattison to WFC, then this generation is the laziest I've ever heard of. I do want better, and like I said, Philadelphia hosts the best sports complex in the world because we host all four major sports teams at the same corner, which used to be Broad and Pattison, and even today, we still do, only at 10th and Pattison.

It's not about the walk, it's about the transfers. If you live near the BSL it's awesome. I'm in West Philly and I need to take the trolley to the Broad Street line and it SUCKS. If I'm going to a 6ers game (and as a season ticket holder, I go to quite a few games), the trolleys are generally done running for the night by the time the game is over. Instead, I usually drive to South Philly and just on at Federal Ellsworth because otherwise the transfers take too much time out of my day and causes a headache.

Even that fails at times. Going to the Phillies on Sunday, I had two consecutive trains pass us (which were not full and not scheduled as express trains) and my son lost his shit because we missed the first pitch of the game. I'm trying to raise him to be urban and appreciate public transit, but SEPTA made an enemy out of my 7 year old this weekend, which is a damn shame.

Honestly, I would have preferred the 6ers stay in the stadium district because it is a unique gameday experience having everything right there. I get that that's not the world we live in through and economics dictate that they push out somewhere else. My second choice would have been over the tracks at 30th street, but this is a solid option as well. I am highly skeptical it is actually any threat to Chinatown or anyone else. Instead, it will likely make that stretch of Market safer.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Justin7

This is not Chinatown and no one is being displaced. We're talking about a dying mall on Market St.

The developers sinked tens of millions of dollars just to renovate the old Gallery into the Fashion District. It’s not the best mall but it’s what’s there. And albeit technically it’s not Chinatown, it’s basically a block away and the impact felt will be huge once it’s built by 2031 (if it gets built)!

I don’t believe there’s lack of mass transit in the Sports Complex since the Sports Complex has a subway line (BSL) and the 10th and Market site has a line around that vicinity. The cries that there’s a lack of mass transit is ridiculous at the most. And not everybody is going to live next to an arena. If people have to commute, either if it takes 30 minutes to the Sports Complex (from Olney to Pattison via the BSL special train) or over an hour from the Lehigh Valley, the Jersey Shote, Dutch Country, or Delaware, that’s just the facts of life! Nobody is fortunate enough to live in either the Sports Complex not Center City, where the action is!

It seems there’s a pro-arena element on SSP. If it were up to me, I’d rather see the 76ers play at WFC, but since Harris wants a new arena, it’s best to place it either at the old Spectrum or the Vet sites, since that’s what the Sports Complex was designed to be in the first place

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

I have no dog in this fight, but if I owned a restaurant in Chinatown, I think I would be ecstatic at the thought of 20,000 people being a block away. They need to eat and drink, right? Again, I have no dog in this fight, but if the arena were to happen, and I was a business owner, I'd be pushing the 76ers to create two beautiful, well-lit, inviting gateways (one on 11th and one on 10th) to facilitate the pedestrian experience to Chinatown.

Originally Posted by Redddog

Yes! There is virtually no talk of this. They say that Chinatown will be dismantled from gentrification. The only people who can screw Chinatown from on this are the Asian people who own nearly ALL of Chinatown!

The only way Chinatown will change is it will be difficult to get a reservation because all the Dim Sum places will be sold out.

Amazing to me how narratives can be so easily twisted these days. People will believe anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk_rZALp_vA

Not sure if a dim sum place exists in DC's Chinatown today, as all of them moved to the VA suburbs.