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  #221  
Old Posted May 31, 2020, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
Marseille only has 800,000 people, but if you were just walking around town and didn't have an appreciation of Toronto's sprawl you might think Marseille is the bigger city.
It's hard to compare European and North American cities. Toronto is mostly highrise or detached house, with few medium-scale buildings. Marseille has tons of medium-scale buildings and they make the nicest urban districts. Montreal has a belt of in-between areas that are above Toronto but below Marseille. Vancouver's got almost no good medium density stuff (yes, I know about the 60's walk-ups of Fairview... they do not make for an interesting neighbourhood).

Canadian cities seem to be on a different trajectory from most of Europe though. There must be some European boom towns but most of them haven't changed much over the past 10 years. Canadian cities were pretty dreary places overall in the 90's and early 2000's but the gap has narrowed. The fast pace of development adds some interest, although construction can be annoying.
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  #222  
Old Posted May 31, 2020, 11:06 PM
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The difference is that for most people the menu of affordable housing options in Toronto is quite limited. Most people in Toronto cannot afford a walkable historic neighbourhood or a an attractive quasi-rural private large lot. So if they want urban they live in a dreary inner postwar suburb and if they want more space they go to the urban fringe and suffer a long commute.
Absolutely, which is why I said these folks are targets to be recruited for the move to satellite cities likes London or Kitchener or Kingston.

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Hakka cuisine is a good example to put things into perspective. It's the kind of specialized restaurant that has about a 70% chance of existing in metro Halifax. We have a few of them in Vancouver and Toronto probably has 2-3x as many. Hakka food is great but I'm a little skeptical that having 15 different Indian and Chinese restaurant types but not Hakka is that significant quality-of-life wise.
It's not make or break on quality of life by itself. But this is exactly the kind of difference that Hipster Duck was getting to. And I used that as an example, because it's one of those things I miss about Toronto when I'm away. Would I move to a city for Hakka food? No. Would having a Hakka restaurant make me feel a tiny bit better about a city? Absolutely.

But it's not so much access to Hakka food that is the problem as much as how bad anglicized Chinese food will be in a lot of smaller towns. It's borderline inedible to me sometimes. Eating that crap in say Portage-la-Prairie or Moose Jaw or Trenton as I have, only reminds me of how big the gulf between Toronto and the rest of the country is sometimes.

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There's also an inherent bias in trying to hunt around for stuff that Toronto has without also approaching things from the other direction (e.g. you say Miami is lacking because it doesn't have Hakka restaurants but you don't consider Latin American food, which is generally kind of lacking in Canada). I'd expect it to have more variety overall than smaller cities but it does not offer everything. One important aspect of moving to a different city or region is adapting to what's available there.
The thing is, you are far more likely to find better Latin food in Toronto or Montreal than anywhere else in Canada. (And I agree that our options on this front truly suck, and I miss truck tacos after moving back from California.) So yes, you may not get Cuban food on par with Miami, but if you have any hope of finding an authentic cuban restaurant anywhere in Canada, it's in Toronto. If that kind of thing is important to you, than you either stay in Toronto or in a city/town that can access Toronto.

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It is not really the same everywhere. It's rare to find a metro without much sprawl in North America but some metros are 40 or 50% urban while others are around 0%. There is a lot of variety. I would argue that if you care about cities the existence of the urban parts is more significant than whether or not there are car-oriented suburbs nearby.
Can you give examples of a small metro that is 40-50% urban in Canada? Because I can't think of any. Subdivisions abound. At least when some of them had streetcar suburbs they were a bit nicer. But virtually everything built since about the late 60s looks the same in Canada and invariably are commuter neighbourhoods where the idea of mixed use extends at best to a small plaza with a Macs or 7/11.

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I'd also argue that it doesn't take a very large concentration of people to make an urban area that stands out in North America (vibrant, big enough to explore a bunch) if it's done well.
Agreed. You can have a fantastic, vibrant city with 100k. But we never seem to aim towards that with smaller centres in this country What's Canada's equivalent of Portland, Maine? Everyone of our smaller metros grows with ugly assed subdivisions. I've held out hope for a few cities like Kingston and Halifax. But McSubdivision is starting to hitting them hard too.

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Do the old walkable parts of Toronto even have 1 million inhabitants?
Old Toronto is at 800k and growing. East York is at 120k, if you count that as walkable. But there's also pockets outside the downtown core, especially along the Eglinton and Yonge corridors. And Toronto does seem to be growing more walkable neighbourhoods as time goes by.
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  #223  
Old Posted May 31, 2020, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
Marseille only has 800,000 people, but if you were just walking around town and didn't have an appreciation of Toronto's sprawl you might think Marseille is the bigger city.
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
great place. I lived there for one month out of each year for 4 years. The dense urban fabric goes on way more than any city in Canada. Marseille has its problems too (pretty gritty banlieues, which are not very safe to walk around at night) but the dense urban core beats anything here by a long shot.
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It's hard to compare European and North American cities. Toronto is mostly highrise or detached house, with few medium-scale buildings. Marseille has tons of medium-scale buildings and they make the nicest urban districts. Montreal has a belt of in-between areas that are above Toronto but below Marseille. Vancouver's got almost no good medium density stuff (yes, I know about the 60's walk-ups of Fairview... they do not make for an interesting neighbourhood).
That midrise format is what makes for the most livable and walkable cities though. High density with towers can be as dreary as any cookie cutter suburbs if there's no streetlife at the bottom, which is usually the case with a lot of condos and aparments in Canada. Especially of the 70s/80s/90s era Towers-in-the-park concept. What makes European cities so attractive is the fact that their form is human scaled. Not too much is over 6-8 storeys tall. There's retail at the bottom. Blocks are about 100-200' long.

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Canadian cities seem to be on a different trajectory from most of Europe though. There must be some European boom towns but most of them haven't changed much over the past 10 years. Canadian cities were pretty dreary places overall in the 90's and early 2000's but the gap has narrowed. The fast pace of development adds some interest, although construction can be annoying.
Population growth rates are different. Canadian cities are a lot better than the 90s. I agree with that. But it's undeniable that we've done a poor job of managing a lot of that growth. It's only in the lack decade that density targets are really being upped and put in. We still don't do mixed use in most suburbs. But the housing mix is getting better.
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  #224  
Old Posted May 31, 2020, 11:57 PM
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But it's not so much access to Hakka food that is the problem as much as how bad anglicized Chinese food will be in a lot of smaller towns. It's borderline inedible to me sometimes. Eating that crap in say Portage-la-Prairie or Moose Jaw or Trenton as I have, only reminds me of how big the gulf between Toronto and the rest of the country is sometimes.
Moose Jaw is a representative of "not Toronto" and so is a good place to get an idea of what Chinese food is like in, say, also-not-Toronto Vancouver? I don't know Moose Jaw but many metros in Canada are closer to Toronto than they are to the small town stereotype as far as food offerings go. It is not black and white, >= Toronto or 0. And if you do have ultra-discerning tastes I am not sure why you'd want to live in Toronto instead of relocating 600 km southeast to a much bigger city.

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Can you give examples of a small metro that is 40-50% urban in Canada? Because I can't think of any.
Saint John NB is like that. There are areas where it's just a short walk from Victorian streetscapes to woods. A lot of it is pretty run down though; the comparative lack of modern development reflects the poor economic prospects of the area. It is kind of interesting but I'd rather live someplace with a stronger economy.

The point however is if you assumed some sort of population-based model implying the core in Saint John is 10% of 130,000 or whatever it is, you'd be wildly off.

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Agreed. You can have a fantastic, vibrant city with 100k. But we never seem to aim towards that with smaller centres in this country What's Canada's equivalent of Portland, Maine? Everyone of our smaller metros grows with ugly assed subdivisions. I've held out hope for a few cities like Kingston and Halifax. But McSubdivision is starting to hitting them hard too.
I don't really understand this perspective. Halifax hit its apex of sprawliness in the 90's or so. Portland ME is surrounded by exurbia, not wilderness. But either way the quality of the inner city matters a lot more to me than whether or not there are suburbs nearby.

The inner city in Halifax has been growing by leaps and bounds while Portland ME looks about the same now as it did in 2000. I'd guess that back around 1930, Portland ME and Halifax were pretty comparable but now they aren't.
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  #225  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Agreed. You can have a fantastic, vibrant city with 100k. But we never seem to aim towards that with smaller centres in this country What's Canada's equivalent of Portland, Maine? Everyone of our smaller metros grows with ugly assed subdivisions. I've held out hope for a few cities like Kingston and Halifax. But McSubdivision is starting to hitting them hard too.

You mustn't follow the development threads very closely if you think that - Halifax and Victoria in particular have been building a ton of great-looking, high-density infill in their inner cities. They're comparatively much less sprawly - and moving urbanizing much faster - than Portland, ME. Saint John and St. John's also have fairly extensive legacy cores, though most of their newer development is more suburban in nature (Portland probably has more in common with these).

There's a lot of this kind of stuff being built in Halifax that just doesn't have an analogue in Portland:




Southern Ontario's small cities are pretty dreary and now mostly function as far-flung exurbs (Kingston and maybe Peterborough excepted), but that's not the case everywhere in the country, where cities of this size function as important regional centres.



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Old Toronto is at 800k and growing. East York is at 120k, if you count that as walkable. But there's also pockets outside the downtown core, especially along the Eglinton and Yonge corridors. And Toronto does seem to be growing more walkable neighbourhoods as time goes by.

The old city is probably closer to 900,000 today, given the growth downtown (+50,000 since 2016 just in the core). Pre-war Toronto also includes East York (~120,000), York (~150,000), Southern Etobicoke (~100,000), and small parts of North York and Scarborough. Add in early post-war stuff that's urbanized more recently like North York Centre and it might be around 1,400,000.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 12:58 AM
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You mustn't follow the development threads very closely if you think that - Halifax and Victoria in particular have been building a ton of great-looking, high-density infill in their inner cities. They're comparatively much less sprawly - and moving urbanizing much faster - than Portland, ME. Saint John and St. John's also have fairly extensive legacy cores, though most of their newer development is more suburban in nature (Portland probably has more in common with these).
Fair points. I am going off my travels to these cities and it's been a few years since I last got out to the coasts.... Happy to hear that is happening.

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Southern Ontario's small cities are pretty dreary, overgrown suburbs (Kingston and maybe Peterborough excepted), but that's not the case everywhere in the country where cities of this size function as important regional centres.
This is a good point. Maybe better design comes when their importance is higher. Though I'd say, I would think there would be more pressure to keep Kingston somewhat compact, but they are growing subdivisions like weeds over there. Ditto London. And these are the pre-eminent urban centres for their regions.


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The old city is probably closer to 900,000 today, given the growth downtown (+50,000 since 2016 just in the core). Pre-war Toronto also includes East York (~120,000), York (~150,000), Southern Etobicoke (~100,000), and small parts of North York and Scarborough. Add in early post-war stuff that's urbanized more recently like North York Centre and it might be around 1,400,000.
Yeah I didn't want to get too out there with numbers. But I agree, downtown growth in Toronto has been spectacular. Outpacing the outer 416 and even a lot of the 905. I'd give an absolute max of a decade before old Toronto itself is at a million.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 1:11 AM
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Moose Jaw is a representative of "not Toronto" and so is a good place to get an idea of what Chinese food is like in, say, also-not-Toronto Vancouver? I don't know Moose Jaw but many metros in Canada are closer to Toronto than they are to the small town stereotype as far as food offerings go. It is not black and white, >= Toronto or 0. And if you do have ultra-discerning tastes I am not sure why you'd want to live in Toronto instead of relocating 600 km southeast to a much bigger city.
Ironically, Truenorth00 picked Moose Jaw of all places, (because he ate there once) for that place that couldn't possibly know anything about authentic Chinese cuisine.

Moose Jaw had Saskatchewan's largest Chinatown a hundred years ago, same time more than half of all restaurants in MJ were Chinese. But according to True north00's false indepth knowledge of MJ, not enough of a history to develop an appreciation for good Chinese food in that city sadly, sigh*...

As far as Hakka, most IndoChinese restaurants have it. My favorite is Kashmere's Hakka noodle, but Hakka Express does also suffice in a pinch in Saskatoon.

Speaking of restaurants, I'm curious what opportunities will be for new openings of chain restaurants in Canada. Saskatoon's new Olive Garden hasn't opened yet due to Co-Vid but probably will soon. And now Hooter's is looking to hire/objectify watresses for a Saskatoon entrance into market.

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...n-in-saskatoon
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  #228  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 1:35 AM
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This pandemic has been around for about 3 months. Give it 5 years and you'll likely see those cities have a slightly lower, or stagnated population.

You are not going to see this in 3 months of lockdown.
People have a tendency to forget things quickly.

By early 2021 there will probably be a vaccine. By then, a lot of people will have had the disease and contracted antibodies anyway (estimates are that the actual number of infected people is 10 times as much as the official numbers when including all those who are asymptomatic).

Sure, some people realize that it sucks to be living in a 3-room condo while there is a lockdown. I'd go crazy too... But a situation like this hasn't happened since the Spanish Flu in 1918. It's not like there will be pandemics like this every decade. Maybe it will happen a little more often than before (say every 75 years instead of every century) but it's pretty much a once in a lifetime thing.

Of course, transit ridership will take some time to go back to normal, and public places won't be as full for a while, but eventually people will come back and the lockdown will be a distant memory. Those who want to move out of cities in case something like this happens again well... Kind of a dumb move if you ask me since pandemics rarely occur but it's their choice.

If anything, the added active transport infrastructure in many cities due to the distanciation norms will make people fall in love with their urban neighborhoods again.

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  #229  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 1:50 AM
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Moose Jaw had Saskatchewan's largest Chinatown a hundred years ago, same time more than half of all restaurants in MJ were Chinese. But according to True north00's false indepth knowledge of MJ, not enough of a history to develop an appreciation for good Chinese food in that city sadly, sigh*...
What was that like 10 families and a goat? I stand by what I said. The food I had was crap. And if it was the centre of Chinese culture in Saskatchewan from a century ago, I can only assume the great-great grandkids who could cook left town.....or more than likely they have to make the crap that sells to locals who lack taste buds.

And yes, I'm aware of the history. Saw the tunnels. Heard the history. Doesn't change the fact that the food sucked. But good job on proving my point about tokenism. "Hey we had a few Chinese folks here a century ago. Ergo we have great Chinese food."

You want to tell me how many times you go out of your way to actually sample Moose Jaw's finest Chinese food yourself?

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As far as Hakka, most IndoChinese restaurants have it.
IndoChinese is Hakka. So they all have it. The problem is that there aren't too many IndoChinese restaurants around. Most cities in Canada don't have them. It's usually ethnically Chinese immigrants from India or the Carribean who are native to this cuisine. And second to them are Indian chefs. It's arguably more Indian than Chinese at this point.

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Speaking of restaurants, I'm curious what opportunities will be for new openings of chain restaurants in Canada. Saskatoon's new Olive Garden hasn't opened yet due to Co-Vid but probably will soon. And now Hooter's is looking to hire/objectify watresses for a Saskatoon entrance into market.
I'm always surprised that Hooter's is still around. Now that Joey's and Earl's and Moxie's all slut it up, the value of Hooter's has to be diminishing. It was the alternative to Peel Pub when I was in university in Toronto. I can't imagine it climbing up the ladder. But maybe when I become a middle aged chubster who knows....
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  #230  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:07 AM
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great place. I lived there for one month out of each year for 4 years. The dense urban fabric goes on way more than any city in Canada. Marseille has its problems too (pretty gritty banlieues, which are not very safe to walk around at night) but the dense urban core beats anything here by a long shot.
Nice is very similar...although I have a feeling that the banlieues are not as bad. Dense urban core, an even denser old town and quite a grid of low rise apartments and villas in the hills.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:08 AM
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But a situation like this hasn't happened since the Spanish Flu in 1918. It's not like there will be pandemics like this every decade.
There's no evidence yet that Covid-19 will do anywhere near the damage that the Spanish flu did. It killed 50 000 Canadians. In an era of less than 9 million residents.

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Of course, transit ridership will take some time to go back to normal, and public places won't be as full for a while, but eventually people will come back and the lockdown will be a distant memory. Those who want to move out of cities in case something like this happens again well... Kind of a dumb move if you ask me since pandemics rarely occur but it's their choice.

If anything, the added active transport infrastructure in many cities due to the distanciation norms will make people fall in love with their urban neighborhoods again.
There's a lot of projecting going on in this thread. People who hate cities, Toronto in particular and condos, imagining that most of the world is like them. They can't imagine that there are people who actually like condo living. Or would be just fine with better designed condos. Or would choose a townhouse in Toronto over an SFD in Kingston.

Also, if work from home takes off it should in theory let people live where they want to live. There's an assumption that this means smaller cities and towns to maximize house bought with real estate dollars. I'd argue that most people will prioritize living closer to family and friends before anything else.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:42 AM
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Absolutely, which is why I said these folks are targets to be recruited for the move to satellite cities likes London or Kitchener or Kingston.

It's not make or break on quality of life by itself. But this is exactly the kind of difference that Hipster Duck was getting to. And I used that as an example, because it's one of those things I miss about Toronto when I'm away. Would I move to a city for Hakka food? No. Would having a Hakka restaurant make me feel a tiny bit better about a city? Absolutely.

But it's not so much access to Hakka food that is the problem as much as how bad anglicized Chinese food will be in a lot of smaller towns. It's borderline inedible to me sometimes. Eating that crap in say Portage-la-Prairie or Moose Jaw or Trenton as I have, only reminds me of how big the gulf between Toronto and the rest of the country is sometimes...
In most cities the restaurant industry is going to be a smouldering hole in the ground by the time the pandemic ends, I'm not sure basing living choices by access to dining establishments is the wisest choice.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:56 AM
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In most cities the restaurant industry is going to be a smouldering hole in the ground by the time the pandemic ends, I'm not sure basing living choices by access to dining establishments is the wisest choice.
Nobody said you should make decisions about where to live based on dining options. In fact, in the paragraph you quoted, I expressly said I wouldn't do it.

But those dining options are just one example of the many cultural offerings that big cities offer, that as a whole, contribute to their appeal for some people.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 3:16 AM
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great place. I lived there for one month out of each year for 4 years. The dense urban fabric goes on way more than any city in Canada. Marseille has its problems too (pretty gritty banlieues, which are not very safe to walk around at night) but the dense urban core beats anything here by a long shot.
The love for Marseille on here is interesting given that it's clearly the ugly duckling among major French cities.
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  #235  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 4:04 AM
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Just for those of you who think population decline/stagnation is not, nor will ever be, a problem in Canadian cities................Between 2018 & 2019 Canada experienced it's fastest growth rate in decades almost entirely due to immigration yet 1 CMA and over 30 CAs experienced population decline or stagnation of less than 0.3%l growth.

Even if immigration rates dropped by just 24% of our recent record highs, we would have many cities experiencing population decline. What's more these centres have older populations meaning a far lower number of births than in larger and younger cities.
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  #236  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 4:39 AM
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Just for those of you who think population decline/stagnation is not, nor will ever be, a problem in Canadian cities................Between 2018 & 2019 Canada experienced it's fastest growth rate in decades almost entirely due to immigration yet 1 CMA and over 30 CAs experienced population decline or stagnation of less than 0.3%l growth.
One CMA out of 37.

And 30 CAs out of 115. Which isn't saying much, because we know rural areas are depopulating. This is hardly news. Also CAs aren't CMAs. CAs shrinking doesn't prove your point about cities shrinking. It simply confirms that rural areas are depopulating.
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  #237  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:17 PM
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IndoChinese is Hakka. So they all have it. The problem is that there aren't too many IndoChinese restaurants around. Most cities in Canada don't have them. It's usually ethnically Chinese immigrants from India or the Carribean who are native to this cuisine. And second to them are Indian chefs. It's arguably more Indian than Chinese at this point.
"Hakka food" in the sense that we're describing here (Indo-Chinese fusion) is actually a uniquely Toronto thing, for the most part.

The Hakka people are an ethnic group from southern China and Taiwan. A large number of them at some point in history ended up moving to India, where some opened restaurants that combined their own southern Chinese styles with local Indian cuisine. (Very similar to how Cantonese immigrants to North America a century ago created "chop suey cuisine" by adapting their culinary traditions to local tastes here). In the past few decades this Hakka-India diaspora has formed its own diaspora in Toronto and brought this hybrid food with them.

Elsewhere in the world, "Hakka food" usually means the actual southern Chinese food that Hakka people in their homeland eat.
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  #238  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:26 PM
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The love for Marseille on here is interesting given that it's clearly the ugly duckling among major French cities.
Undeservedly so. It is also chock full of history and contains an unbelievable number of layers in the urban fabric. It does have high unemployment and a large number of marginalized ethnic group members.



lonelyplanet, britannica

Le Panier is one of the best preserved historical areas in the entire country.

marseille-panier
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  #239  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 3:07 PM
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"Hakka food" in the sense that we're describing here (Indo-Chinese fusion) is actually a uniquely Toronto thing, for the most part.
You can't be serious. Anybody who says this is a "uniquely Toronto thing" hasn't been too India. It is the cuisine of choice in India when dining out. Akin to Mexican food in the US or Indian food in the UK.

It was created in India, by those Chinese immigrants you talked about. And their presence in India dates back to the early 1800s. Some of these Chinese migrants and/or their descendants ended up moving to Caribbean as migrants or indentured servants bringing their cuisine with them. It's why Caribbean Chinese food is close to Indo-Chinese food.

Many of them left India in the 1960s after facing discrimination following the 1962 Indo-China war. That's how some of them ended up in Canada.

Where did you get the idea that this cuisine was created in Toronto?
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  #240  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2020, 6:29 PM
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There's no evidence yet that Covid-19 will do anywhere near the damage that the Spanish flu did. It killed 50 000 Canadians. In an era of less than 9 million residents.
Yeah of course not. Things have evolved but this is still a pretty big deal economically and health-wise.
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There's a lot of projecting going on in this thread. People who hate cities, Toronto in particular and condos, imagining that most of the world is like them. They can't imagine that there are people who actually like condo living. Or would be just fine with better designed condos. Or would choose a townhouse in Toronto over an SFD in Kingston.

Also, if work from home takes off it should in theory let people live where they want to live. There's an assumption that this means smaller cities and towns to maximize house bought with real estate dollars. I'd argue that most people will prioritize living closer to family and friends before anything else.
I believe work from home will be a thing but only once or twice a week... You will always need people inside offices having interactions with their coworkers. Plus, a lot of people will want to separate their workplace and their home.

There's also productivity issues in working from home that companies sure won't like.
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