DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

You said "any." Now you're admitting there's some improvement, just not enough. I agree with the latter. The former is obviously incorrect.

I do appreciate how you carefully specified total VMT and not per capita VMT, which we all know will probably continue to decline (but not as much as it could if we made better choices).

[bunt_q]

That is "any" in my book. If you're not reducing overall VMT, then you shouldn't be talking about reducing road miles, plain and simple.

I don't put much stock in per capita VMT as a transportation mode measure. It's a good thing to see that reduced, yes. And I know touting those per capita VMT numbers is all the rage in transportation planning circles. But nobody is correcting for trips that no longer have to be taken, mostly do to the fact that we're all lugging around 24th century technology in out pockets. Reduced VMT is clearly not because trips are being taken by alternate hard transportation modes. No, they're being taken by facetime, snapchat, facebook, amazon, you name it.

I think it's willful silence/ignorance in planning circles to not be discussing the cause - if you just note reduced VMT, people will assume it's because of urban revival and alternative modes. And most good urban liberals who lack independent thought but vote right are playing right along. Because few people understand that correlation does not equal causation. And I don't think transportation planners should take credit for what amazon has accomplished.

[Cirrus]

It's not either/or. It's and. We're all seeing better mode splits than we used to also, especially in central cities. In fact, the two probably form a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Meanwhile, it's folly to ignore our transportation funding situation. With gas tax revenue declining we don't have the funds to expand driving capacity along with the population even if we wanted to. So we can either repurpose our streets to maximize efficiency, or we can let the system stagnate. And we all know you agree. We all know you'd repurpose lanes on Broadway for a transitway, and you've even admitted that you'd allow a cycletrack. So what's the problem?

Temper our expectations because Denver's neighborhoods will mostly still be predominantly single family homes? Agreed. I don't think that's a controversial statement either. But nobody has proposed outlawing cars. Driving will still be easy even if we do all the things people on this forum want to do. We obviously can't destroy the city's car infrastructure, but nobody has proposed doing so. That's a red herring.

So help me out here: What's the problem?

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Except we're only building a couple dense neighborhoods that really accomplish that. And for every moderately dense unit we are building, even in Denver proper, we are building two units that nobody will argue are not auto dependent.

What options are being provided? Bike lanes in neighborhoods with little to no growth? No, you are wrong, we're doing a lot of window dressing, but nothing at all to materially impact how people move around this city.

Nobody here can say with a straight face that they expect 2030 VMT in the City and County of Denver to be lower than total VMT today. Not a chance. Whatever inroads alternative modes are making are more than made up for by population growth.

Where are bike lanes being placed in neighborhoods with little to no growth? are you referring to the Broadway corridor?

Our best and cheapest option is to continue to aggressively densify. All these new units in Union Station, Lodo, Ballpark, Golden Triangle, Lohi, Rino, Baker, etc. are in the "core" and are walkable and bikeable to daily needs, daily pleasures, and hopefully work. Many people will chose to live in these locales precisely because it is close to work. People inherently do not like to commute in traffic.

So, I would argue that there are more than a couple neighborhoods that we are densifying, and more than a couple neighborhoods that are non-SFH specific.

I would say a with a straight face that in 2030 VMT in the city and county of Denver will be lower, and absolutely per capita. VMT per capita is probably lower Y-O-Y by that metric. In the surrounding edge cities, maybe not? People make a choice to live out there.

FYI, gas prices for 4th of July weekend are the second highest on record this year behind 2008.

[Wizened Variations]

There are those that are "free marketeers" and those that are "socialists." Both, of course, are not clear cut. A stakeholder in a growing corporation likely will want political influence at the highest affordable level to push for legislation and regulation that helps his or her business or non-profit to grow. Consequently, the collection of stakeholders creates a huge lobbying and political sponsorship "industry" whose collective operations have little or nothing to do with the benefits and the risks inherent in any free market. Likewise, a "socialist" has a difficult time accepting the reality that government operations "featherbed" endlessly, rarely quit growing in size, and, end up being controlled by government nomenklatura.

Most of us accept the tenet that the global economy is extraordinarily dependent on the price of crude oil. Less of us accept the truth that the US car industry, as well as the entire road grid were built due to cheap oil. Even less of us accept the reality that if the US were FORCED to move people cheaper per unit of money, say due to doubling of the price of crude in renmindi or ruble to the dollar, that the US would have NO choice but get the federal government involved dealing with the gut wrenching changes such an increase would entail.

Ok, so lets look at the real possibility that the US, NATO Europe, Japan, and, Korea are dealing with the old "if you want to boil a frog without the frog resisting turn up the heat slowly" addage. In this scenario, our ability to finance major changes whether in changing auto efficiency over the medium term, or in maintaining our freeway grid, will continue to slowly diminish. For example, the US already is financing cars at 6 year and even 7 year lengths, and, doing this when the prime rate is near 0. What happens when the prime increases to 1.5% or 2.0%? What happens to the cost of borrowing money for manufacturers, car retailers, and, in the end, the buying public? Right now the fed is subsidizing the profit spread on every consumer purchase on credit. Another example: for the last 30 years, the net condition of the highway grid has been slowly declining, whether interstate, or local. This is due to the combination of the reduced value of the dollar as reflected in the cents per gallon retail taxes, and, the increased cost in real terms of asphalt, cement, rebar, and, various surface treatments. Flat out, at the current tax per gallon rate based on a level or slightly growing consumption rate, the quality of the road grid will continue to decline.

So the question, free markeeters and socialists is how does the Country get REAL money (money generated by increased productivity not money supply dilution) to maintain the grid, increase alternative transportation in cities, when the price of oil keeps rising (particularly if wars are amortized) in real dollars? On top of that, how can the Country, on any large scale, have foreign governments indirectly tax the US user via a toll system or users fees for riding on foreign owned transportation systems?

This is far more important than the beers I have drank with acquaintances discussing the issue.



EDIT: Any militarist will tell you that wars keep the price of oil DOWN. And, there is some merit to their arguments if the cost of war is excluded from the retail price of gas, which, of course, it now is.

[PLANSIT]

First Mile/Last Mile: It’s Time For Denver To Get Real Serious About Mass Transit
by Paul Kashmann

First mile, last mile. There’s a breath of fresh air blowing along the roadways of metro Denver.

Like a sailor buoyed by a sudden gust of wind billowing in the sails of his once dead-in-the-water schooner, help may be on the way for those of us who are getting increasingly frustrated by the difficulty in getting from Point “A” to Point “B” in the Mile High City.

With some three million people residing in the Denver metro area at the present time (and another million due in the next decade or so), our roadways tend to function as slow-roll parking lots at least as often as high-speed transit corridors.

In an effort to stimulate vehicle owners to abandon their cars or trucks in favor of alternate modes of transportation, Denver planners reduced parking requirements across the city several years ago, making it as difficult to park your car as it is to drive it, doing nothing to facilitate access to Denver’s anemic transit system.

First mile, last mile.

I own and drive an automobile, most times with no one in the vehicle but me, because I not only need to get from Point A to Point B, but most days I have a C, D, E and F involved as well. Trying to negotiate those visits by bus or train simply does not make for an efficient use of time.

I am not addicted to auto travel. I do not like auto travel. What I like is that I can get from my office near Evans and Broadway to Racine’s at 6th and Sherman in about 14 minutes by car, when it takes more like 41 minutes each way by bus, and that presupposes that the rest of my day lends itself to my cutting things precisely to the wire by successfully hoofing it to the bus stop or train station on time and making the needed occasional connections without unforeseen circumstance or delay...

Continue Reading

[bcp]

Solid article!

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bcp

Solid article!

Agreed, he's just saying what most of us are already thinking. (With the exception of the few people who are either in denial that cars have any role to play, or who truly believe we should all buck up and heave-ho cycle our way everywhere we go.)

[Stonemans_rowJ]

The best solution in the near term is for people to not live "a mile" from transportation options. We need to densify the core which we are doing a great job of. If everyone in the giant landmass of Denver thinks a streetcar is going to take them to A,B,C,D,E, and F during the day I think we are not being realistic. Even in a city like Chicago, if you are going 6 different spread out places during the day, you're probably using a car.

He also states that planners have relaxed parking requirements and therefore parking and driving is more difficult. It is my experience that parking in Denver is easy and cheap (or free). Additionally, most developers as Bunt has noted many times are exceeding parking requirements. Unless you are commuting on I-25, it is still incredibly easy and quick getting around by car.

[bcp]

Good points...more.density yes, but put it in the core, along transit, and along main streets - BP Denver and MS zoning very much do this.

Parking is all relative...its harder in denver now than it USED to be, but still not that tough for ppl that can walk 3 blocks (this seems to.make healthy denverites whine incessantly for some reason). Try parking on DC...yeesh its bad.

[EngiNerd]

Not sure if anyone's been out to DIA lately, but the hotel is nearly fully clad in glass now and looking nice!

Didn't grab a photo myself, but pulled a pano from their webcam

http://www.flydenver.com/ConstructionCam

[RyanD]

That reflection...

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

First Mile/Last Mile: It’s Time For Denver To Get Real Serious About Mass Transit
by Paul Kashmann

If I did not know better, I would have thought this article was satire. Of course the question is getting to and from the station or the bus stop!

[bunt_q]

So I am about tovget on a train. My thought was to take the train downtown and then hop a bus out to City Park to the museum. Of course, I have no cash. I can buy a round-trip light rail ticket at the station with a card now, finally. But can I board a bus with my return light rail ticket, and then transfer? Unclear. Check RTD's website, no apparent answer. I could buy a more expensive day pass, but that's dumb for a single round trip.

Shouldn't be this hard. Screw this, know what I'm going to do? Drive.

RTD's suck level is truly next level! Worst. Large. Transit. Agency. In America. Frankly, RTD shouldn't get bonus points for Fastracks, the voters and the Mayor did that, not them, and not Phil Washington. In terms of day-to-day operations, they are truly terrible. (This is why pork works in Washington too - even a bad Congressman can take credit and it excuses the rest. That's Phil Washington.)

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So I am about tovget on a train. My thought was to take the train downtown and then hop a bus out to City Park to the museum. Of course, I have no cash. I can buy a round-trip light rail ticket at the station with a card now, finally. But can I board a bus with my return light rail ticket, and then transfer? Unclear. Check RTD's website, no apparent answer. I could buy a more expensive day pass, but that's dumb for a single round trip.

Shouldn't be this hard. Screw this, know what I'm going to do? Drive.

RTD's suck level is truly next level! Worst. Large. Transit. Agency. In America. Frankly, RTD shouldn't get bonus points for Fastracks, the voters and the Mayor did that, not them, and not Phil Washington. In terms of day-to-day operations, they are truly terrible. (This is why pork works in Washington too - even a bad Congressman can take credit and it excuses the rest. That's Phil Washington.)

The question always is the old time and money argument.

How much is my time worth? How much time is required between point X and point Y? How much is the time difference between driving and a mix of public transit and walking worth?

This is particularly true if one already owns a car.

For this reason, good public transportation networks on the planet have short distance to walk transfer points between modes, good route design, little or no step up to enter public transportation vehicles, short wait time at transfer points, frequent service between 5:00a and 12:00a, good security, cleanliness, and, mechanical reliability.

These are the absolute basics.

Add higher average speeds, the ability to run expresses, attractive vehicles, multiple transfer points (more choices for the rider), room for laying down triple and quadruple tracks at rail stations, more emphasis on through ridership traversing urban cores, well integrated bus and steel rail scheduling at numerous rail stops, and ridership will follow.

What we have in Denver is the consequence of the prolonged interaction between powerful private parties, elected government officials, and, institutional bureaucrats. With such a mix, ridership ends up being shoe horned into politically compromised systems that are not user oriented.

All this reminds me of what my grandfather told me: "You don't use a team of horses to push the wagon."

You can't force riders to use a system that does not fit their needs.*

*Needs change with income. The poorer one becomes, the time cost of money equation changes towards emphasizing saving money, and, less towards saving time. I have been forecasting saturation of portions of the rail system, not because of ridership increasing due to the pleasantness of the experience of use, but due to demographic changes related to human migration and aging, and, a lowering of the real income of the bulk of the population.

EDIT: My estimate for the US population in 2035 will be around 350 to 360 million. I guestimate that 70-75% of the age and health defined group of people that could be potential drivers, will drive. Add the children of the 25 to 30% that will not be able to afford to drive, the mobile elderly who SHOULD not drive, and, we are talking about 125 million or more people that could be dependent on buses, light rail, commuter rail, taxis, mooching rides, walking, and, bicycling.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So I am about tovget on a train. My thought was to take the train downtown and then hop a bus out to City Park to the museum. Of course, I have no cash. I can buy a round-trip light rail ticket at the station with a card now, finally. But can I board a bus with my return light rail ticket, and then transfer? Unclear. Check RTD's website, no apparent answer. I could buy a more expensive day pass, but that's dumb for a single round trip.

Shouldn't be this hard. Screw this, know what I'm going to do? Drive.

RTD's suck level is truly next level! Worst. Large. Transit. Agency. In America. Frankly, RTD shouldn't get bonus points for Fastracks, the voters and the Mayor did that, not them, and not Phil Washington. In terms of day-to-day operations, they are truly terrible. (This is why pork works in Washington too - even a bad Congressman can take credit and it excuses the rest. That's Phil Washington.)

Pretty clear to me:

http://www.rtd-denver.com/HowToTransfer.shtml

[Wizened Variations]

Bunt, I went ahead and looked at a trip from the Taj Mahal Station Center to the Denver Museum of Natural History. On a Sunday, the trip would take you between 1:44:00 and 2:02:00.

The hours are extreme, but, I was looking to get maximum times.



http://www.rtd-denver.com/GoogleTrip...nute=47&ampm=p

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Pretty clear to me:

http://www.rtd-denver.com/HowToTransfer.shtml

Did you actually read that? Copy me the portion that answers my question and tells you how to initiate a return trip (on a bus) using a round trip light rail ticket. Will the bus driver take the ticket at that point and give a transfer? But the first bus driver on the first leg can't obviously since it's a return. I don't think it's clearly addressed.

Also, it shouldn't take a three page website to describe transfers. Jesus. Quit making excuses for them. I'm actually not the dumbest person in the city. If it's not clear to me, it's probably not clear to most people.

[matteric]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did you actually read that? Copy me the portion that answers my question and tells you how to initiate a return trip (on a bus) using a round trip light rail ticket. Will the bus driver take the ticket at that point and give a transfer? But the first bus driver on the first leg can't obviously since it's a return. I don't think it's clearly addressed.

Also, it shouldn't take a three page website to describe transfers. Jesus. Quit making excuses for them. I'm actually not the dumbest person in the city. If it's not clear to me, it's probably not clear to most people.

I've done that a few times. The light rail ticket has an expiration time printed on it; you just show it to the bus driver and let him know you need to keep it. It's basically an all-day pass.

Also holy crap what is taking so long with the smartcards it's the year of our lord twenty and fourteen and

[denconyny]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did you actually read that? Copy me the portion that answers my question and tells you how to initiate a return trip (on a bus) using a round trip light rail ticket. Will the bus driver take the ticket at that point and give a transfer? But the first bus driver on the first leg can't obviously since it's a return. I don't think it's clearly addressed.

Also, it shouldn't take a three page website to describe transfers. Jesus. Quit making excuses for them. I'm actually not the dumbest person in the city. If it's not clear to me, it's probably not clear to most people.

Here..... maybe this will get you to use the bus more often.........



Maybe.....?