Wanting Nice Things and Discrimination

[adam-machiavelli]

Sadly this hating-on-natives-and-their-allies discussion has survived so long. So sad and depressing.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

But as often happens in conversations moved to this thread, I'm out. This type of pattern happens over and over and I should know by now it's not worth it, especially when it starts venturing into hearing how hard done by people with privilege are.

That's often how these discussions go, sadly, which is why I tend to bow out of them quickly too. It's amazing how everyday, smart, intelligent folks get so defensive and even downright hostile when asked for a little empathy and understanding from a marginalized group.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

As Staples article has implied, why not ask how the majority of Inuits feel about "Eskimos" instead of just relying solely on the indignation of a few social justice warriors?

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

That's often how these discussions go, sadly, which is why I tend to bow out of them quickly too. It's amazing how everyday, smart, intelligent folks get so defensive and even downright hostile when asked for a little empathy and understanding from a marginalized group.

Are you sure it's empathy and understanding that is being sought? I suggested they find out whether or not the group involved really feels the way that is being portrayed by their leader (based on an article that suggested it might not be), and basically got told to shut up, because white people can't have an opinion.

So suggesting that the marginalized people decide what's best for the marginalized people makes me the bad guy, and not because I'm wrong, but because the colour of my skin.

As an aside, in an entire lifetime of living in Edmonton I've never heard the term Eskimo used in a derogatory fashion. Instead it was an almost romanticized term that referred to a proud, tough people with close ties to both the land and their heritage.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

Why don't you look past your hatred of whites and re-read what I wrote.

Looks like we have someone who is proud of their whiteness here.

Or, alternatively, wow, what an awkward accusation to throw out there.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Looks like we have someone who is proud of their whiteness here.

Or, alternatively, wow, what an awkward accusation to throw out there.

So, your approach to this conversation is to equate me to the KKK? Logic is truly beyond some people.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

So, your approach to this conversation is to equate me to the KKK? Logic is truly beyond some people.

No.

I'm just saying that that post was very awkward, having the potential to paint yourself in that corner. I highly doubt that you are.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

Are you sure it's empathy and understanding that is being sought? I suggested they find out whether or not the group involved really feels the way that is being portrayed by their leader (based on an article that suggested it might not be), and basically got told to shut up, because white people can't have an opinion.

So suggesting that the marginalized people decide what's best for the marginalized people makes me the bad guy, and not because I'm wrong, but because the colour of my skin.

As an aside, in an entire lifetime of living in Edmonton I've never heard the term Eskimo used in a derogatory fashion. Instead it was an almost romanticized term that referred to a proud, tough people with close ties to both the land and their heritage.

The problem isn't hard numbers, the problem is the seeming refusal to even entertain the idea that something is offensive to a group of people without proof or some arbitrary majority being consulted first.

The colour of your skin isn't the issue. It's the fact that the colour of your skin has never marginalized you here in Canada. It has never been used to subjugate your people and culture here. It has never caused you to be removed from a mall while enjoying lunch. It has never been used as an excuse for police to pick you up and drive you out to the city limits in the middle of winter where you were left to die.

The colour of your skin also means you don't get to dictate what people of another colour deems offensive. You don't get to make demands of them to satisfy your own need for inaction or for keeping the status quo - the status quo that the people of your skin colour have built up to intentionally keep others on the margins for your own comfort.

The name of a sports team isn't that big of a deal. What is a big deal is the refusal to believe a group of people that are telling you they are offended. The refusal to listen or accept their reasons when they are explained. What is a big deal is the pattern of disbelief, or unwillingness to compromise for the sake of others. And for what? What do you gain from this intransigence? What is anyone gaining by it?

[SHOFEAR]

In a few years people like you guys will be complaining about the Golden Bears and Panda's having different names is sexist or something like that. meh, it doesn't stop with social justice warriors until we can all live in some imaginary fairytale world filled with unicorns and rainbows where we all walk down the street holding hands singing campfire songs...only I'm sure you guys will then find some crazy injustice with that too.

Seriously, we must live in a pretty good place if stretching the interpretations of sport franchise names is on the top of the list when it comes to social issues. What's next, Yoga is now too offensive for your fragile emotional well being....oh wait, this just in, it apparently is with the SJW crowd.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

What is a big deal is the pattern of disbelief, or unwillingness to compromise for the sake of others. And for what? What do you gain from this intransigence? What is anyone gaining by it?

I think more will be lost than gained, but that never gets in the way of some people. I've just finished reading Natan Obed's editorial on the issue and come away thinking he's just another zealous ideological politician who represents his people no more than any of our last 8 Prime Ministers did. Any documentary I've seen on northern living does not suggest the name Eskimo used by Edmonton's team even cracks the top 100 issues in northern communities he should be targeting.

I pity any Inuit who do identify with the name Eskimo.

This should satisfy some here, as I don't think they're after compromise, just acquiescence.

[noodlenoodle]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

In a few years people like you guys will be complaining about the Golden Bears and Panda's having different names is sexist or something like that. meh, it doesn't stop with social justice warriors until we can all live in some imaginary fairytale world filled with unicorns and rainbows where we all walk down the street holding hands singing campfire songs...only I'm sure you guys will then find some crazy injustice with that too.

Seriously, we must live in a pretty good place if stretching the interpretations of sport franchise names is on the top of the list when it comes to social issues. What's next, Yoga is now too offensive for your fragile emotional well being....oh wait, this just in, it apparently is with the SJW crowd.

Keep that straw man you're building away from open flames. It's a fire hazard!

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

I think more will be lost than gained, but that never gets in the way of some people.

You didn't answer the question, though.

Originally Posted by Landlocked

This should satisfy some here, as I don't think they're after compromise, just acquiescence.

In what way?

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Seriously, we must live in a pretty good place if stretching the interpretations of sport franchise names is on the top of the list when it comes to social issues.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to you, but I will say this: If so so many won't even try to understand why this fairly trivial issue matters to some people let alone do anything to address it, then how can anyone hope to solve the bigger social issues?

It is a lack of empathy, respect, and understanding is the root of so many of those big issues after all.

[Coldrsx]

The Montos.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Daveography

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to you, but I will say this: If so so many won't even try to understand why this fairly trivial issue matters to some people let alone do anything to address it, then how can anyone hope to solve the bigger social issues?

It is a lack of empathy, respect, and understanding is the root of so many of those big issues after all.

Perhaps we can find a common ground with these populations and name some of our teams after them due to many of the admirable qualities they have historically possessed and some of the unique conditions we share with them all while having a branding that respects and doesn't make goofy caricatures (Washington Redskins) as some sort of olive branch.

I know that if some pro hockey team from Latvia named themselves the "Canadians" it would be because of an admiration of the qualities they value....Even if that name originated by their arch rivals down the highway in 1890 as some sort of commentary on them playing a tough and dirty style compared to the usual soft European style and it was something they embraced. Shit, the logo on the jersey could be John Candy dressed as a lumberjack riding a moose pulling a canoe filled with cases of maple syrup holding a hockey stick in one hand and a beaver in the other hand and playing a looping version of Celine Dion singing a rendition of log drivers waltz during the entire warm up...wouldn't bother me.

It seems more helpful to everybody to embrace these things as a group and as a way to recognize common ground than to manipulate and dissect it into something negative and divisive when there is no reason to do it. It's really really unfortunate than you guys find this a negative when it should be viewed as embracing northern culture as part of our shared history.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

You didn't answer the question, though.

In what way?

[What is a big deal is the refusal to believe a group of people that are telling you they are offended?]

I'm not saying a group of people aren't offended. I'm saying that there is always someone offended. Decision makers must ensure that the number of people offended merits action. To do anything else is irresponsible.

[The refusal to listen or accept their reasons when they are explained. What is a big deal is the pattern of disbelief, or unwillingness to compromise for the sake of others.]:

Tell me what compromise there can be. If one side is 'Hell no, we won't change the name!' and the other side is 'You must change the name.'. The closest there can be to compromise is, change the name if doing otherwise is causing widespread harm.


[And for what? What do you gain from this intransigence? What is anyone gaining by it?]

I've already mentioned I don't think I'm the one being intransigent. What is gained is a line in the sand, not against action but against kneejerk reactions that hurt more people than are helped. There are massive costs associated with rebranding. I've also suggested that there are massive costs with telling every Inuit person that the E-word is the equivelent of the N-word.

[adam-machiavelli]

If for-profit sports teams are going to start using Indigenous icons for their team names or any other sort of promotion then they need to do it in an environment of mutual respect. This means:
1. Asking the relevant communities if they can use their names and symbols in the first place.
2. Consulting with the communities how the names and symbols should be used and continuing to consult with them as time passes.
3. Ensuring the communities are fairly compensated for their support through licensing fees, a significant portion of merch revenues, discount or free tickets to games, just like any other partner.

[rapid_business]

EDIT: Having just read Staples article for the first time, I found it quite interesting. Here it is in case you missed it. The banter in the comments section is interesting too and actually informative for once.

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Perhaps we can find a common ground with these populations and name some of our teams after them due to many of the admirable qualities they have historically possessed and some of the unique conditions we share with them all while having a branding that respects and doesn't make goofy caricatures (Washington Redskins) as some sort of olive branch.

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

If for-profit sports teams are going to start using Indigenous icons for their team names or any other sort of promotion then they need to do it in an environment of mutual respect. This means:
1. Asking the relevant communities if they can use their names and symbols in the first place.

Yes. This makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

2. Consulting with the communities how the names and symbols should be used and continuing to consult with them as time passes.

Sure.

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

3. Ensuring the communities are fairly compensated for their support through licensing fees, a significant portion of merch revenues, discount or free tickets to games, just like any other partner.

Much more complicated perhaps. But merch revenue or licensing fees to who? Unless you can firmly can identify a benifiting group (a representing board? a single reserve? an entire people group?) it's a little more difficult to manage.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Looks like Oxford is at it again

Indigenous Edmontonian alleges profiling after being ejected from Kingsway Mall
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...mall-1.3536100

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Chinatown resident blames cluster of social agencies for drug-addict 'ghetto'

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...-addict-ghetto

Four times a day, Georgina Fiddler, 63, takes her little dog Jack for a walk through her neighbourhood. Fiddler loves the area, with its bakeries, vibrant business sector and many fine families, but she is also angered and upset by what she sees on her walks.

She lives downtown in an apartment in the Hull Block in Chinatown, an area that is a bustling business and residential district by day, but by night turns into a chaotic public party place for Edmonton’s homeless and its drug and alcohol addicts.

“It’s like party central,” Fiddler says. “I don’t mean that in an ignorant way, but these are people who are lost.”

On her walks, she often sees addicts passed out or camping in the alley, along with empty bottles and used syringes. One recent morning, as local children were catching a school bus, a man sat on the sidewalk nearby injecting drugs.

“Why are these children not valued the same as the children that are in Garneau, Terwillegar?” Fiddler asks.

Fiddler is so fed up with lack of action to clean up the area that she’s started her own “Make It Awkward” campaign, both calling attention to the suffering while also calling out inner-city social agencies, which Fiddler says do too much enabling of the problem and not enough fixing.

She’s also fed up with the policy of concentrating social services for the homeless and the addicted in this one neighbourhood.

One evening she was out for a walk with Jack when she came upon a large group of people drinking and blocking the sidewalk. Fiddler moved onto the road to walk by, but had an altercation with an intoxicated native woman, who cursed Fiddler as a “white b–ch,” then chased Fiddler down the street (Fiddler has light skin but is Métis, a descendant of Hudson Bay company fur trader Peter Fidler, 1769-1822, and his Cree wife, Mary Mackagonne).