What is it like to come home to Canada?

[manny_santos]

In my early-mid 20s I spent a period of time in Mexico, and I definitely felt reverse culture shock upon returning to Canada - especially because I had virtually no travelling experience prior to then, as I’d only travelled within Canada, as well as Michigan and New York.

I was never Mr. Popular in high school or university; I wasn’t particularly an outcast but I was very awkward socially and didn’t really “fit in” anywhere, and had tremendous difficulty establishing friendships in my hometown as I was too different. Perhaps it was my French Canadian upbringing, which made me socially different than my Southwestern Ontario peers. There was a different culture I experienced down south, where I felt more accepted and felt more “normal” than I was used to in Ontario. There was also a lot more people outside, no suburban development. Going back to Southern Ontario, at the time, felt like a setback for me socially, and it really, really struck me how dead London was when I arrived back there on a sunny Saturday spring evening and there wasn’t a single person outside.

My experience outside Canada taught me something that might be considered controversial - some people claim that if everyone’s being an a-hole, maybe you’re the a-hole, but after being treated completely differently abroad, I realized it was my own community that was the problem. I left London within a month of coming back to Canada and over a decade later I have no regrets.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Very well put. DC feels exactly like that.

London can feel like that too. I most noticed it exploring Westminster Abbey, and seeing the tombs of all of the luminaries of the Empire all together in one place - Newton, Darwin, Rutherford, Dickens, Kipling, etc. It really made you think that you were in the presence of greatness, and, in a place that really matters.

Canada’s Walk of Fame, not so much......

Canada needs a national Pantheon (among other things).

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The longest I've been away was in California. Landed back in Ottawa right in the middle of winter. This time with a spouse and a kid who was seeing snow for the first time.

I think something to keep in mind is not just your personal perspective. But how much a changing family perspective can drive your view. I left Ottawa in 2012. Came back in 2019. Tons of changes in there. Meanwhile, my wife had never seen Ottawa before. And coming from London, ON, she was actually shocked at how big Ottawa was. She was genuinely fascinated by it. And I got to sort of experience Ottawa through fresh eyes.

Things we noticed moving back from California:

1) How much more the job market sucks in Canada. It's much more competitive and your coworkers are all very guarded.
2) How much healthcare sucks.
3) How much worse our family support services are, especially in the military.
4) How much better public transit is (than the US).
5) How much more expensive everything was.
6) How much less we worry about authorities here. From security on base to beat cops.

Most interesting shock? We get out of the airport and it's been a long day of travel. It's late. But I'm happy to be back in the homeland and feel that my patriotism should be indulged with a Tim's. So we drive to the first Tim's outside the airport. I ordered my usual and the minute I tasted it, I nearly spat it out. Turns out I had lost the taste for Tim's while away. I regained my citizenship when I found out that I hadn't lost the enjoyment of poutine.

Alternatively, everytime I come back from Europe. On business or vacation though, I got through a few days of mini depression. I realize how ugly our cities are. And I don't just mean downtown. Average subdivisions can suck. Getting around is so much more difficult. From the lack of intercity rail to the lack to cheap flights to worse transit. The food. Everything from poor produce quality to so much crappy fast food.

Some great observations upon returning, and something I didn't touch on; the reverse culture shock.

I returned to Canada to visit a bunch over the years while living abroad. From 2002 to 2021, I came back to Canada a total of 12 times. Each visit, the reserve culture shock became more minimal, unless I was gone for over two years. My return in 2021 was a big ol' heap of culture shock that I didn't expect though.

I spent the entirety of COVID in Seoul, and while it had its own issues, the social fabric seemed to be intact. Outside of an increase in businesses closing, the city and its citizens remained unaffected - from a visual standpoint. Coming back to Vancouver felt like I walked into a bit of a war zone. The city looked rough. There was way more graffiti than usual. Everything was tagged. Even windows on occupied apartment buildings. Open drug use pretty much everywhere, even outside of banks on the westside of the city (which would have been very unusual pre-2019). You'd see people shooting up or smoking meth while getting insurance. It was everywhere. There was also a lot of people who were clearly in mental distress. I remember going to get the keys to my apartment, and while waiting outside, some guy came storming down the sidewalk, lifted up the mailbox in front of my new digs, and threw it into the street. That same day, I saw some guy in middle of East 2nd street in Olympic Village picking fights with moving cars. It was not used to this at all, and wondered if coming back was a huge mistake. Seoul was so timid by comparison.

Since then, thing have clearly improved, but I think I just got used to it as well. I don't see the same amount of open drug use and people suffering from mental illnesses these days, but it's not like they've just disappeared. Maybe I've become conditioned to not notice it as much.

The positive culture shock was seeing so many different people with so many different styles walking around the city. Vancouver was a breath of fresh air after living in an extreme monoculture like South Korea, where everyone's trying not to stand out or be different.

And the food. My god, Vancouver is a wonderful place to eat.

[Truenorth00]

^ The one thing I always miss away from Canada is the food. That's been discussed a bit in the other thread lately.

Aesthetics is something I've noticed but couldn't articulate well. I've started to realize it's two things for me.

1) Exposed power lines. In most of the developed world, power lines are buried in urban and suburban areas. It's very third worldish to have a rat's nest of wires right outside a bunch of suburban condos. But that's normal in Canada. The visual clutter is terrible.

2) It's ultimate car centric design that makes our cities grossly generic and ugly.

• Video Link

[isaidso]

I'm from London (UK) originally, moved to Nova Scotia at 11, then back to London as an adult for a few years. That old adage that travel gives one perspective couldn't be truer.

I knew upon return to Canada there would be things about Canada that would frustrate me but the revelation was developing an appreciation for things I previously placed little value on. It took moving away to deepen my love of Canada. I knew when I came back that this is where I wanted to be. Below is, by no means, an exhaustive list but these things stand out above the rest.


Things that will always frustrate me to no end about Canada
- how many Canadians are ignorant of Canada/blind to their own country
- people who don't think culture can be Canadian and American at the same time
- the post WW2 auto-centric mindset and how destructive its been to cities nationwide
- lack of ambition, timidity, tall poppy syndrome

Things I love and admire about Canada
- Constitution/Charter of Rights, multi-culturalism is official state policy since 1982, no ethnic pecking order
- vast largely empty geography, natural beauty, abundance of natural riches (water, minerals, flora, fauna)
- Canadian culture (sports, traditions, food, way of life)
- big spacious comfortable housing, HVAC


So my advice isn't to be apprehensive about a return to Canada. Look at it as an opportunity to see the country in a new light and bring things you've learned overseas to enrich your life here. Then again, maybe you'll realize you need to travel the world some more or that Canada isn't where you want to be. What ever you decide, you won't know unless you come back.

[Truenorth00]

Different perspectives is not guaranteed. How many people go to Europe, treat it as a theme park, come home, and start complaining about bike lanes and cyclists the minute they get into the F150 in the airport Park n Fly? In this sense, caring about urbanism is depressing. Ignorance is bliss.

Some perspectives I think are only available if you're away longer or if you go to certain parts of the world. I would like more travel to Asia because I think that might offer me a bit more insight.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Exposed power lines. In most of the developed world, power lines are buried in urban and suburban areas. It's very third worldish to have a rat's nest of wires right outside a bunch of suburban condos. But that's normal in Canada. The visual clutter is terrible.

I just passed there a few minutes ago (it's kind of my "commute")

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.38896...8192?entry=ttu

and having read your post a few minutes before, the presence of those wires actually hit me -- it's indeed incredibly ugly and third-world-ish.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by lio45

I just passed there a few minutes ago (it's kind of my "commute")

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.38896...8192?entry=ttu

and having read your post a few minutes before, the presence of those wires actually hit me -- it's indeed incredibly ugly and third-world-ish.

In fairness I think this is not so much a Canada thing as a North America thing; overhead utility wires are all over the place in the U.S. as well, no matter the geography.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

In fairness I think this is not so much a Canada thing as a North America thing; overhead utility wires are all over the place in the U.S. as well, no matter the geography.

In my corner of Florida they're in the back alleys (they look exactly like ours, except they're not right there on the street; they're behind the buildings they supply rather than in front of them like here). It's kind of the best of both worlds IMO: just as cheap, but not visible in the streetscape.

[Acajack]

Fun fact - the old city of Montreal (pre-merger boundaries) has very few overhead wires because long-time mayor Jean Drapeau hated their ugliness and had all of them buried over the years.

[lio45]

Dominion Bank, corner Bleury and St. Catherine Streets, Montreal, QC, about 1915




Pretty sure in the early days every electric company had its own network of wires... imagine the mess!

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

In fairness I think this is not so much a Canada thing as a North America thing; overhead utility wires are all over the place in the U.S. as well, no matter the geography.

It really depends on the city I think. NYC and a lot of the NE have buried their wires, but in the South they are all overhead (probably understandable in a place like NOLA). Seattle and San Francisco also have a lot of overhead wires in relatively urban areas. Also in general touristy areas are much more likely to have buried wires and other beautification efforts compared to Canada, so there's some selection bias. We tend to treat everything equally in terms of dishevelment (Montreal and QC may be the exceptions).

Australia is pretty similar to Canada in the presence of overhead wires in older areas - it's even been featured on album art of some of the Aussie indie bands my uncle would send me (he lives in Sydney). https://maps.app.goo.gl/dv4X6zr13Fw4NnCD8
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3qU2Tf4Qq8gzUZo96
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8SKeGyFeAdyPANm67

And of course Japan is probably the king of this.


Personally I don't really mind stuff like the old "birdcage" wires on King st in Toronto or somewhere like Kensington and despite the protestation of the urbantoronto crowd would say they even add a bit of charm. https://maps.app.goo.gl/hpR93FDrodpAHbRt8

But borderline suburban stuff like this is the epitome of ugly, and probably one of the uglier streets in Ottawa IMO: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3nH9WCFyzG8nxVZi7

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alternatively, everytime I come back from Europe. On business or vacation though, I got through a few days of mini depression. I realize how ugly our cities are. And I don't just mean downtown. Average subdivisions can suck. Getting around is so much more difficult. From the lack of intercity rail to the lack to cheap flights to worse transit. The food. Everything from poor produce quality to so much crappy fast food.

Truer words were never spoken. I always feel a bit depressed after coming back to Canada from Europe (the beautiful cities, history, great food, great transit, well-dressed people), and sometimes, coming back from Asia (the vibrancy, the orderliness juxtaposed with the cacophony, great transit, great food, well-dressed people).

One thing Canada beats Europe in is the toilet sweepstakes. Finding a place to take a piss in Europe is frustrating. Either you have to drop 3 Euros for an unwanted coffee, or you stand in line for a disgustingly grubby clogged bowl.



Don't get me started on the toilet situation in China.



Canadians dress like slobs. Not as bad as Americans, but close. And there are many more overweight people in Canada, compared to Europe, and especially Asia. Not as much as America (which can't be beat, except maybe in some South Pacific states like Tonga, where everyone is obese).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Fun fact - the old city of Montreal (pre-merger boundaries) has very few overhead wires because long-time mayor Jean Drapeau hated their ugliness and had all of them buried over the years.

Rene Levesque abhorred billboards, and sought to keep them out of Quebec (largely successful during his time). Jean Drapeau also hated old buildings, and sought to remake Montreal with sunken highways and le Courbusier-like developments like LaCité. He wanted to run a freeway through Vieux Montréal.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Very well put. DC feels exactly like that.

London can feel like that too. I most noticed it exploring Westminster Abbey, and seeing the tombs of all of the luminaries of the Empire all together in one place - Newton, Darwin, Rutherford, Dickens, Kipling, etc. It really made you think that you were in the presence of greatness, and, in a place that really matters.

Canada’s Walk of Fame, not so much......

So true. I was blown away by the amount of great bones in Westminster Abbey: A who's who of some of the greatest people that ever lived.

What do we have on Canada's walk of fame? Alan Thicke? Anne Murray? Sass Jordan? Ben Mulroney?

I hope at least Neil Young is there.

[hipster duck]

The only other country I've lived in is the United States, for 2 years, for post-grad studies. During that time, I came home a lot, so there's not much of a culture shock there.

I can't really speak about Europe more than what I observed superficially as a tourist and through reading books. I can't really speak much about East Asian cultures, although I do know what it's like to be part of the Chinese diaspora visiting the 'mother country'. Needless to say, it's like that episode of the Sopranos where they go to Italy.

Anyway, at least in relation to the US, and to the old, larger countries of Europe (I guess), one thing I appreciate about Canada is that Canadian society isn't very "deep" and is easy to read. I grew up in an immigrant family in a small city that was 95% white and during my time, my parents moved from a predominantly working class neighbourhood to a middle class neighbourhood and finally to an upper middle class neighbourhood when they were at the peak of their careers. If I got dropped in most social situations in just about any class or location setting in English Canada, I think I'd be perceived as an outsider, but not someone who's completely out of touch, and I think I could say enough of "the right things" to at least build some trust by the end of the night.

Related to this, another thing I appreciate about Canada is that society isn't too hierarchical. We do have our elites, and it's true that not everyone is going to end up being the Prime Minister, or the CEO of RBC. But it's a lot flatter than the US, and I imagine a lot of European or Asian countries. Here's an example: a few years ago I worked on a project with a guy who would later do his MBA at Harvard. His boss went to Brock. In the US, there's no way that somebody who's Harvard MBA material reports to a guy who went to SUNY Potsdam. That's just not happening. I thought about this, and I realized that I'm two to three degrees of separation from the Prime Minister all the way down to a recovering addict who lives in a van. And we don't live in a small country like Lithuania or Luxembourg where this might also be true just because of small numbers. When you think about that, that's pretty amazing.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But it's a lot flatter than the US, and I imagine a lot of European or Asian countries.

Something people overlook about Sweden is that for all its social democratic tendencies, it has a large aristocracy. You do not have to go far before encountering someone whose career prominence and/or financial situation seems far, far in excess of what their age and talent might suggest... until you realize they are not a Jonsson or a Landberg. They are an Oxenstierna.

[niwell]

One of the biggest comments that my UK family has about Canada - particularly those who have relocated here - is the relative absence of class-based distinction. Inequality is rising to be sure, but it's not the same. The UK is on another level where the poshest classes aren't necessarily the richest in absolute terms.

[suburbanite]

My current setup is typically about 2-3 weeks in the U.S. followed by 1-2 weeks in Canada, which is obviously a bit different than being away for multiple years. That being said, crossing the back and forth so often makes you notice the little things that hit on a daily basis.

The first is how absolutely fucked over the Canadian consumer is at every turn. Everything from buying food and booze to air travel and car rentals. Everything is cheaper, more accessible, and the service is exponentially better in the States. The U.S. has a culture of customer service that you don't really get in many other places in my experience. I was in LA for the first time a month ago, and wanted to rent a car to drive up the PCH for half a day. I booked last minute and got one of the last reservations for some little hatchback for $70 USD. I got to the lot and was chatting to the young guy working there, ended up talking about where I was from, he was interested in "The Six" and things like how popular the Raptors are and whatnot. As we were finishing up, someone came back and dropped off their rental car early. It was a brand new Mercedes E-class convertible. He asked if I wanted to switch to that and he'd give it to me for the regular upgrade price and not the "premium luxury car" price. I said why not it's a bucket list item to drive along the Pacific Ocean with the top down. He runs out, scrubs the car down, cleans the inside, and hands me the keys. I ended up driving a $120,000 car for $158. I just can't remember many situations like that in Canada in where someone goes above and beyond (not that I blame them). The same car also probably would've cost me at least $400 to rent in Toronto.

In terms of what I appreciate most when I'm back in Canada, it is immediately apparent how socioeconomic divides are not so firmly drawn along geographic boundaries. The fluidity between being in an upscale residential neighbourhood, to a low-income apartment block, to a street with new condos everywhere and young professionals/students walking around. You just don't get that in the U.S. Even in New York where the lines are more blurred than they historically were, I can still make observations like "Okay so the East Village/Soho is where the last bohemian artist holdouts in Manhattan are, Greenwich Village is where the people who still want to be young and hip but also make $500,000/year are, brownstone Brooklyn is where the rich people who want to raise kids but refuse to leave the city are, etc." You still get big transitions when you cross from certain areas to another, but the lines can be drawn on areas the size of census tracts, whereas in Toronto you can get those transitions from one street to another. Even in the suburbs, it's basically unheard of in the states to have an upper middle class suburb like Oakville or Port Credit where $3 million SFH homes are adjacent to 1970's apartment blocks. People in Canada are much more comfortable living in this sort of socioeconomic jumballiah. I think it's a hugely important thing to keep a society healthy as you don't balkanize your own cities and keep the poor working in poor areas, and the wealthy living in their own bubbles where they never encounter the other half.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

One of the biggest comments that my UK family has about Canada - particularly those who have relocated here - is the relative absence of class-based distinction. Inequality is rising to be sure, but it's not the same. The UK is on another level where the poshest classes aren't necessarily the richest in absolute terms.

I hear stuff like this about France as well.

- So this fellow has scored highest out of all applicants for this prestigious selection we need to make.

- Ah yes, but we know for a fact that his great-great-grandfather was a garbageman. People from that family never amount to anything good!


OR

"It's more prestigious to be a janitor at a university in Paris than to be the president of a university in one of the regions outside Paris."