NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,200 FT / 388 M | 61 FLOORS

[aquablue]

It's kind of strange, one would think that the Penn Station area would be the first area to be redeveloped given its strategic location (on top of a major transport hub just like GC, WTC, etc) but instead it appears that it may be the last major development node in Manhattan to sprout a new commercial hub due to lower rents at other developing nodes. However, after HY, Midtown East, and WTC, there are not that many more places to go, so that area will get its turn sooner or later.

[Hudson11]

Following the WTC, Hudson Yards and East Midtown i'm sure the areas around MSG and Penn Plaza will be eyed for redevelopment.

[Guiltyspark]

Originally Posted by Duck From NY

Don't know why it has to "do" THAT much. Just my personal taste.

Because the location is perfect for a supertall. Not another generic midtown highrise.

[NYguy]

http://www.rew-online.com/2013/01/09...ys-fascitelli/

Vornado missed the boat, says Fascitelli





By Orlando Lee Rodriguez
January 9, 2013

Admitting that his company did indeed lose out by not investing into the Penn Station area sooner, Michael D. Fascitelli, president and chief executive officer of Vornado Realty Trust, spoke of his continued interest in the rapidly changing area, but said a market move would have to be delayed. “I think we missed an opportunity to do what we wanted to do,” Fascitelli said. “I think it will be the center of what’s going on down there. We have the capability to make it happen, we just have to wait until the next cycle. We are one cycle late.”

Fascitelli said that although New York has emerged stronger and grown steadily compared to other cities, such as Boston and San Francisco, domestic growth will likely be slow because of government ambivalence on fiscal policy. The effect of quantitative easing on interest rates, Fascitelli said, is hurting the local office market in terms of companies moving into new space. It has been cheaper for corporations to negotiate extensions than to move to new offices.

In 2006, Vornado agreed to pay more than $310 million for rights to develop retail in the rear of the Penn Station building, a plan that never took off. The company has also outlined plans for a new tower at 15 Penn Plaza . Also indefinitely postponed, the 68-story tower would have 430 units and 2,050,000 s/f of floor space.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by NYguy

http://www.rew-online.com/2013/01/09...ys-fascitelli/

Vornado missed the boat, says Fascitelli





By Orlando Lee Rodriguez
January 9, 2013

What is wrong with this cycle now just starting?

[Hudson11]

office tenants are tough for them to get right now. Vornado has to compete with Related's Hudson Yards, Brookfield's Manhattan West, Silverstein's WTC etc for tenants. Their is more demand for high-end residential projects. Brookfield made the same mistake but will make up for it by converting some of it's Manhattan West office space to residential.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by Hudson11

office tenants are tough for them to get right now. Vornado has to compete with Related's Hudson Yards, Brookfield's Manhattan West, Silverstein's WTC etc for tenants. Their is more demand for high-end residential projects. Brookfield made the same mistake but will make up for it by converting some of it's Manhattan West office space to residential.

I wonder if they had proposed this tower as mixed use would it be rising now. I.e, hotel, office, retail.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by aquablue

I wonder if they had proposed this tower as mixed use would it be rising now. I.e, hotel, office, retail.

At one point, there was mixed use planned for the various towers Vornado and Related had a hand in around the site, though not at 15 Penn Plaza. I think the problem with this cycle is that there are so many other potential towers that are ready to build now, or already under construction. Vornado would have to first close the hotel, then demolish it. I wouldn't rule out this cycle though, because there may be firms willing to make an earlier committment.

[khaizer007]

Not only that but even if Vornado was to change the nature of this project to mixed use or residential, this kind of development might not be profitable by the time it's ready to build it considering all the high end luxury project going up this year alone(432 park, 56 leonard, On57 and seems like Tower verre and 225 w57 are well on their way). I expect this to slow down after next year tho, as i'm sure the demand for those type of projects will decrease so if Vernado was to decide to make it a mixed use or residential project, they'll be at the back end of that market. They are right in holding on to it for the next cycle cause the WTC and Hudson yards seem to have all the momentum and seem to be more of a priority for the city.
Besides I'm no fan of the design, hope they hold on to it long enough to actually change what this tower will look like. The only reason i was in favor of it was for its effect on the skyline, but with all the supertalls going up in the city, I'd rather this one stays on the shelves for some time.

[Don098]

This is good news in my book. I never liked this one at all.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by khaizer007

Not only that but even if Vornado was to change the nature of this project to mixed use or residential, this kind of development might not be profitable by the time it's ready to build it considering all the high end luxury project going up this year alone(432 park, 56 leonard, On57 and seems like Tower verre and 225 w57 are well on their way). I expect this to slow down after next year tho, as i'm sure the demand for those type of projects will decrease so if Vernado was to decide to make it a mixed use or residential project, they'll be at the back end of that market. They are right in holding on to it for the next cycle cause the WTC and Hudson yards seem to have all the momentum and seem to be more of a priority for the city.
Besides I'm no fan of the design, hope they hold on to it long enough to actually change what this tower will look like. The only reason i was in favor of it was for its effect on the skyline, but with all the supertalls going up in the city, I'd rather this one stays on the shelves for some time.

Yes, the tower is too fat although I like the curves. A taller tower here would be ideal with a better design. Pelli can do better.
However, this design may be totally outmoded by the time it gets going.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by khaizer007

I expect this to slow down after next year tho, as i'm sure the demand for those type of projects will decrease so if Vernado was to decide to make it a mixed use or residential project, they'll be at the back end of that market.

Obviously no one can predict the market, but we appear to be at the beginning of a cycle, not the end of one.

Why would you think residential demand would decrease, when there's currently barely any residential inventory, and when the local and national economies are improving?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Don098

This is good news in my book. I never liked this one at all.

How do you know if you would like it? The rendering isn't actually how it would look; it's just a depiction for zoning approvals.

The actual design would be based on the tenant needs. Vornado is planning this around an anchor tenant, and they don't even have an architect yet.

[khaizer007]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Obviously no one can predict the market, but we appear to be at the beginning of a cycle, not the end of one.

Why would you think residential demand would decrease, when there's currently barely any residential inventory, and when the local and national economies are improving?

There's not an infinite amount of billionaires in the world to keep this boom going forever. The market is based on demand and the reason why we have so much demand right now is because people from all over the world are looking for safe investments but at some point just like in any other case, the market will reach its peak and considering all the towers on the way in the city, there will be plenty of supply to fulfill that demand so I find it hard to see this boom going further than the next couple of years. That's just the economist in me, but again that's not an exact science so we'll see what happens.... and besides, if the boom ends in the next 2-3 years, it still means all the towers beeing built and the ones in the pipeline will grace the skyline in the next few years, that'll make for perhaps the best period of skyscraper building in NYC(in my lifetime at least).

[Hudson11]

There was a tower Pelli did for Vornado's Hudson Yards proposal that I liked. I'd rather see that here but the tower depicted in these renderings is amazing too.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by khaizer007

There's not an infinite amount of billionaires in the world to keep this boom going forever.

Don't be confused. It's not a billinaire's only market. They will get the top prizes, for sure. But even in the tallest towers, those are limited.

Originally Posted by khaizer007

I'm no fan of the design, hope they hold on to it long enough to actually change what this tower will look like.

Vornado won't be changing anything. If they so much as added an antenna to the design, it would have to go back through the approvals process. It's the reason why they submitted two separate designs to be approved - they can build either one, depending on market demand. So, like 2 WTC, it will be built as planned.

[khaizer007]

i use "billionaires" more as a reference to wealhy people, of course they're not the only ones buying expensive condos.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by khaizer007

i use "billionaires" more as a reference to wealhy people, of course they're not the only ones buying expensive condos.

There will always be wealthy buying in Manhattan. It's just now you're seeing a different type of product take the stage. But properties have been doing well in Manhattan, though the Penn Station area isn't there yet...
http://www.rew-online.com/2013/01/09...nyc-last-year/

http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/01/...des-for-32-5m/


I think the focus here needs to stay on commericial. With the coming of the Penn/Moynihan Station developments and Manhattan West, this district should become a commercial core similar to what surrounds Grand Central. It's what high density transit cores should be. Residential can and will go anywhere, but there are so few places in the City where large scale office towers can and should go. If that means we wait a few more years, then we wait.

[khaizer007]

yea, i think the area around 34th and the Grand Central area will be the center of activity in the next decade or so.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Vornado won't be changing anything. If they so much as added an antenna to the design, it would have to go back through the approvals process.

The building envelope can't be changed, but they can definitely design the building however they would like.

The approvals are for the building envelope, not for the specific architectural design.