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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 1:01 AM
DetroitMan DetroitMan is online now
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Southfield (Detroit Suburb) wants after-work downtown vibe and nightlife

Glad to see Southfield making some decent plans to revitalize itself. Ignore the putdown I put in the thread title. I put there by accident.

Southfield wants after-work downtown vibe and nightlife

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With its Northland shopping mall and its many suburban office parks on acres of asphalt, Southfield typifies the sprawling low-density suburbs of Detroit. It’s the sort of landscape that met the needs of businesses and residents leaving Detroit for suburbia a generation or two ago.

But that car-dependent mode of development is increasingly falling out of favor as downtown-style walkable urbanism grows more popular. And Southfield, perhaps metro Detroit’s most prototypical suburb, is trying to reinvent itself.

The focus is the City Centre, a varied district that stretches from the Southfield municipal offices and public library east of Evergreen between 10 Mile and 11 Mile roads west through a cluster of office parks and across Northwestern Highway to the Lawrence Technological University campus.
http://www.freep.com/article/2013110...ech-studio-Ci-







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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 2:03 AM
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Nice to see Southfield is looking for a makeover. It definitely need one.
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  #3  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 2:25 AM
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Edited thread icon as per request.
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  #4  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 5:44 AM
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I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but it's too late for Southfield. It has an ageing and somewhat unpopular housing stock, its schools are in decline, and it has some of the highest property tax rates in Oakland county. Plus its retail is in decline and office space isn't too hot either, with the exception of the Towne Center and the Northwestern Highway corridor. Northland mall is probably in its last decade as an enclosed shopping center and Macy's (in the next inevitable round of closings) will close the Northland store. And we don't even have to get to the elephant in the room of its proximity to Detroit and the city's problems beginning to spill into Southfield's borders. But Southfield isn't declining as rapidly as other suburbs (Eastpoint (that name change really worked out), Warren, Hazel Park, and many others).

Moreover, this seems like a really stupid plan. If downtown Detroit, the Pointes, Birmingham, and Rochester can't maintain or had to shutter their stand-alone department store(s) what makes Southfield think that it can maintain a few new stores. And the project seems like a poor version of a lifestyle center (Fountain Walk part deux). A good lifestyle center like Crocker Park or Legacy Village will only work where the plan is good and people want to live/work nearby -- all negative for Southfield. Plus, downtown Birmingham/Royal Oak are very close by and even a resurgent downtown/midtown Detroit would make the plan unviable.
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 6:27 AM
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^ some good points. They totally missed the opportunity on this, and the transition should have begun 15 years ago when office towers were still rising there. But you got the pull of other suburbs and redevelopment in Detroit that are better places to shop and work and that's where Southfield residents will go.

Major planned developments scare me. They tend to fail more easily than succeed and fail worse in communities where the past half century development trajectory has totally been opposite of what is proposed.
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 1:13 PM
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This will never happen.

I know Southfield well, and lived there for a bit as a child. Southfield, while a decent community, is slowly declining, and does not have sufficient demand for new retail space of any type. The existing mall (Northland) is a disaster, the other mall (Tel Twelve) was demolished and rebuilt, and all those existing office buildings you see in the renderings are half-empty and starved for tenant interest. They're even demolishing 60's-era highrises in Southfield (just tore down a former Sheraton, and a former Holiday Inn may be next).

And surrounding communities have successful existing downtowns (Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale). Southfield is an older sprawlburb and cannot compete with this.

Another thing: Southfield is overwhelmingly black and Orthodox/Hasidic Jewish. This means it isn't your "typical" sprawlburb, and means that your typical retail development and might not necessarily work. You need someone who knows the community; who would know that, for example, Friday night is useless from the perspective of attracting religious Jews, or that retail in black neighborhoods may be successful in attracting blacks but often has trouble attracting other ethnicities from neighboring jurisdictions.
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  #7  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2013, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And surrounding communities have successful existing downtowns (Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale). Southfield is an older sprawlburb and cannot compete with this.
Also, Birmingham, Royal Oak and Ferndale were all rail towns that existed before the post war sprawl monster. That kinda gives them a different blue print to work from. Southfield was built entirely under the car dependency premise. This is going to be a spectacular fail along the lines of Fountain Walk...

Southfield's problem isn't really that it is itself a sprawlburb, but that the Metro Detroit's sprawlburb market is beyond saturated. This ain't fixing what truly ails Southfield...
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2013, 1:16 PM
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Lots of spandex wearing cyclists in that rendering.
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2013, 7:45 PM
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The area already has a decent relatively urban residential base with the townhouses and residential towers. There's also the student base at Lawrence Tech and the employee base in the multiple office towers. Civic Center Dr. could become a sort of walkable 'main street" as the traffic isn't too heavy on that road. Obviously it is an ambitious plan, but I think it would be nice if it pans out. They really should focus on adding a bunch of residential mid-rises. Maybe young professionals working in the nearby office towers may decide to ditch the commute and move in.
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2013, 8:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
The area already has a decent relatively urban residential base with the townhouses and residential towers. There's also the student base at Lawrence Tech and the employee base in the multiple office towers. Civic Center Dr. could become a sort of walkable 'main street" as the traffic isn't too heavy on that road. Obviously it is an ambitious plan, but I think it would be nice if it pans out. They really should focus on adding a bunch of residential mid-rises. Maybe young professionals working in the nearby office towers may decide to ditch the commute and move in.
I lived in Southfield and I can't recall anything there that would qualify as "urban." It's quintessential postwar suburban. It's all malls, strip malls and subdivisions. The Civic Center was the original suburban office park.
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I lived in Southfield and I can't recall anything there that would qualify as "urban." It's quintessential postwar suburban. It's all malls, strip malls and subdivisions. The Civic Center was the original suburban office park.
I'm referring to the townhouses and residential tower at Civic Center Dr. and Evergreen. I said "relatively urban", not urban.

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No one, save people fleeing the violence of Detroit neighborhoods, sees Southfield as the ideal suburb.
Guess what, 26 year old white males aren't the only demographic worth courting. There are plenty of middle-class (black) families in Southfield. Even if some areas are becoming less desirable, there are plenty of middle-class areas that will remain so for long term.

Quote:
How the hell is Southfield supposed to basically rebuild an auto oriented area about the size of the Detroit CBD, if not larger, into a faux urban mixed use development?
The area of focus will be the land north of Civic Center Dr. between Evergreen and the Lodge. Is it really that difficult to imagine someone building a few multi-story buildings along Civic Center drive with retail on the first floor, and offices or residential above? They're not trying to create the next Birmingham. They're just trying to bring a struggling, but still viable area into modern times.
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 1:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
Is it really that difficult to imagine someone building a few multi-story buildings along Civic Center drive with retail on the first floor, and offices or residential above? They're not trying to create the next Birmingham. They're just trying to bring a struggling, but still viable area into modern times.
I think it's extremely difficult to imagine new multifamily development in Southfield.

Southfield apartment buildings are generally so undesirable they're in danger of being abandoned and demolished. Many of the large Southfield apartment complexes are filled with Section 8 and other subsidized tenants, and this wasn't the case just a few years ago.

Southfield residential is generally undesirable, but Southfield multifamily is especially troubled. And anyone searching for urbanity and walkability has options all over the place. There would be no reason to move to Southfield which is basically the polar opposite, but not new and shiny like most sprawlburbs, but old and semi-declined.

And re. middle class black families, I don't think they're moving to Southfield in significant numbers any more. They're moving to newer, more desirable suburbs, with better schools. Places like West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, and Novi have very fast-growing black populations.
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 2:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
Guess what, 26 year old white males aren't the only demographic worth courting. There are plenty of middle-class (black) families in Southfield. Even if some areas are becoming less desirable, there are plenty of middle-class areas that will remain so for long term.
Guess what? Southfield is no longer the ideal suburb for middle-class blacks either. Southfield was a solid black middle class suburb during the 1980s, 90s, and early 2000s, However many longtime black middle class residents have migrated to Farmington Hills and West Bloomfield. Moreover, many black middle class families are skipping Southfield altogether. Unlike the past, as evidenced by census data, black middle class families are found in a number of new and established suburbs where in the past, for a variety of reasons, they stayed in the city or in a handful of suburbs like Southfield.

Retailers only care about making money, not whether "there are plenty of middle-class areas that will remain so for long term." in Southfield. The problem is that Southfield's established retail has seriously declined or its on life support. And Southfield's poorer population, as evidenced by declining home values, falling population, and lower incomes, does not help attract retailers. The number and quality of its stores have declined since the 90s. Sears, Khol's, Kmart, JC Penny and other department stores closed up shop in the city. Plus, why should retailers undercut their investments in nearby Troy, Birmingham, West Bloomfield, and Novi by adding the same stores in Southfield?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudkina
The area of focus will be the land north of Civic Center Dr. between Evergreen and the Lodge. Is it really that difficult to imagine someone building a few multi-story buildings along Civic Center drive with retail on the first floor, and offices or residential above? They're not trying to create the next Birmingham. They're just trying to bring a struggling, but still viable area into modern times.
Yes, I can't imagine anyone taking an area twice the size of Northland Center (and probably a third to half the size of the downtown Detroit CBD) and transforming a suburban office environment into a faux urban mixed use development. Especially when there is no demand for that type of retail in Southfield, little residential demand, let alone multistory residential, and office demand is unlikely in an area where there is already empty or half-empty office buildings. I would like to see Southfield succeed, but even the most desirable suburbs have not been building multiple, multistory buildings at the same time. Plus, as has been noted, Southfield is no longer the king of metro Detroit office space and it probably won't get that title back anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLive
The suburbs continue to have higher vacancy rates than Detroit’s core, but are improving. Southfield, which used to be the best sub-market in the metro area, had a vacancy rate of 29.7 percent in the third quarter, the report from NGKF says.

During the third quarter, Southfield’s vacancy rate fell 40 basis points to 29.7 percent, its lowest level since 2011. A little more than 58,000 square feet of Southfield’s office space was absorbed during the period...

...For the city of Detroit, the rate of empty office space fell 60 basis points to 26.5 percent, while 70,000 square feet of commercial real estate was leased up.
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...s_metro_a.html
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2013, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
The area already has a decent relatively urban residential base with the townhouses and residential towers. There's also the student base at Lawrence Tech and the employee base in the multiple office towers. Civic Center Dr. could become a sort of walkable 'main street" as the traffic isn't too heavy on that road. Obviously it is an ambitious plan, but I think it would be nice if it pans out. They really should focus on adding a bunch of residential mid-rises. Maybe young professionals working in the nearby office towers may decide to ditch the commute and move in.
No one, save people fleeing the violence of Detroit neighborhoods, sees Southfield as the ideal suburb. And Southfield offers nothing to young professionals - they would rather drive from more happening places than live there. I haven't seen any devoloper mentioned with these plans. I would guess that developers couldn't make a business case for a large development in a place where property values have plummeted (with no hopes of return) and vacancy rates have increased rapidly.

Most office/retail projects have been in the North/Northwest suburbs (Novi, Northville, Oakland County) or downtown. How the hell is Southfield supposed to basically rebuild an auto oriented area about the size of the Detroit CBD, if not larger, into a faux urban mixed use development? Those offices in the area have lost several tenants over the past few years - most notably Blue Cross Blue Shield who consolidated their employees in downtown Detroit. And Southfield has several residential towers throughout the city that are declining. Lawrence Tech is a commuter school and commuter school students generally care about close parking to their classes and getting the hell back to home, studying, or play after class. If Lawrence Tech can't even support bookstores, non-chain restaurants, and bars near its campus, what makes you think that it can support a larger development - across an expressway no less?
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  #15  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2013, 8:15 PM
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It would be nice.

Currently the area looks too spread out to have a solid running start. The college is a pretty long way away even if a skybridge or lid is built. So much depends on being an enjoyable one or three minute walk vs. a tougher five or seven minute walk. There's some housing nearby but on average there appears to be very little within the walkable zone in every direction.

Of course if it's not a prosperous or growing part of town that's a huge hurdle. Drywall costs the same regardless of where you put it, so it usually goes where the rents and growth are high.

On the positive side, maybe it can succeed as a drivable quasi-urban destination even before the walkable density goes in. Maybe there's good pent-up demand for this sort of thing.
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  #16  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 1:24 AM
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I don't think people will be confusing mid-century Section 8 apartment complexes with a mixed-use office/retail/residential development.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 2:41 AM
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What I find interesting is that many of qualities people are saying about Southfield are pretty much the same things that have been said about downtown Detroit.

The problem I find with the plan is that it doesn't seem ambitious enough. Southfield's plan doesn't really look all that attractive and doesn't seem to have enough placemaking qualities.

Troy has a similar plan to densify it's notoriously suburban office parks along Big Beaver. The difference seems to be that Troy actually seem to put effort in creating a dense and reconizable center whereas Southfield doesn't seem to have as much effort put in. I mean, yea they already have the office towers, but the development isn't really centered around them.
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 3:04 AM
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Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
What I find interesting is that many of qualities people are saying about Southfield are pretty much the same things that have been said about downtown Detroit.
Southfield doesn't really share any similarities with Downtown Detroit. They're totally different environments.
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Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Troy has a similar plan[/URL] to densify it's notoriously suburban office parks along Big Beaver. The difference seems to be that Troy actually seem to put effort in creating a dense and reconizable center whereas Southfield doesn't seem to have as much effort put in.
Troy is much richer and more successful than Southfield, and Troy has tons of very desirable retail space, all along a single corridor.

Yet, even in Troy, there's no semblance of a "new downtown". It's the same old sprawl, but with some new sidewalks and decorative pavers. Of course the sidewalks are devoid of pedestrians, because you cannot turn postwar suburbia into something pedestrian friendly.
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 3:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Southfield doesn't really share any similarities with Downtown Detroit. They're totally different environments.
Yea, Southfield actually has a stable residential population around its town center, with a higher median income, and a functioning government.

Quote:
Troy is much richer and more successful than Southfield, and Troy has tons of very desirable retail space, all along a single corridor.
Yet, even in Troy, there's no semblance of a "new downtown". It's the same old sprawl, but with some new sidewalks and decorative pavers. Of course the sidewalks are devoid of pedestrians, because you cannot turn postwar suburbia into something pedestrian friendly.
Troy is richer, but not sure what you mean by successful. The vacancy rates in Troy are just as high as Southfield. Plus that retail is desirable only because of the office parks that are directly adjacent. Otherwise it'd just be another corridor of strip malls. The only difference is that Southfield's retail is all along Telegraph and Northwestern Highway away from where most of the office parks are. In that sense, Southfield hasn't really capitalized on its commuter population like Troy has. But really that's not a very hard adjustment to make if planned correctly.
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 3:47 AM
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Yea, Southfield actually has a stable residential population around its town center, with a higher median income, and a functioning government.
No, Southfield has a declining residential population, lower median income than downtown Detroit, and high-tax, poor service government.
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Troy is richer, but not sure what you mean by successful. The vacancy rates in Troy are just as high as Southfield. Plus that retail is desirable only because of the office parks that are directly adjacent.
The retail success has nothing to do with office space. It's because Troy is located next to the richest communities in Michigan.

Somerset is wildly successful because of Bloomfield/Birmingham, not because of adjacent, half-empty 70's era office blocks. And office space is irrelevant to creating a walkable community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
The only difference is that Southfield's retail is all along Telegraph and Northwestern Highway away from where most of the office parks are. In that sense, Southfield hasn't really capitalized on its commuter population like Troy has. But really that's not a very hard adjustment to make if planned correctly.
No, the difference is that Troy is rich, desirable, growing, and has a strong tax base, and Southfield is none of these things.
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