DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bobg]

Originally Posted by bcp

hooray... but whoa whoa whoa...if the NW rail truly dies off...why don't they start the north route from the truncated line at 72nd in westy?

Because that would add about 3-4 miles to a trip to/from Thornton to DUS, would likely result in skipping the NWSS stop (not the end of the world), and no easy direct ROW between 72nd/Federal and 72nd/Colorado exists.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

That seems rather out of step with what was originally stated for the North Corridor. Is it absolutely stated that the North Corridor will now be DMU instead of EMU as has been planned,designed, and is now under construction?

So, let's assume that the $343 million North Line has overhead catenary and will use vehicles like those to be used on the East Line.

If true, we are getting a very good bargain- something like $30 million dollars per mile, including stations, new ballasting, new ties, etc.

Is this to be a single tracked line, with 2 track stations? The figure, points IMO, towards this. If so, then the line has the same problems, but, over a greater distance and more stations than the West Line has between the Federal Center Station and the Taj Mahal Stations, i.e., one of headways and sidings for trains to wait for oncoming trains to pass by, which has been discussed before (what would head ways be when trains are traveling two directions with the only place for trains to pass one another at the five intervening stations?)

If the line is not double tracked- regardless of propulsion mode, the time required to travel the length (13 or so miles) would be in excess of 35 minutes due to program scheduling for one to two minute slow down for any reason in either train direction (with two track mains and no additional track the slowdown caused by a train going in one direction, does not quickly affect trains traveling in the opposing direction.)

Hopefully, then, the $343 million (at least) will buy us electrified, double track to 124th Ave, with no same direction train passing capabilities. In that case, 30 minute times between 124th Ave and DUS are possible.

This compares to the 120X running from 120th Ave to the Market Street Station in 25 minutes as is.

If RTD wants the system to work very well, the line will need double tracking, and, a few stations with triple tracks to use to bypass a same direction train at speed. In that case, 20 minute times might be possible which would attract a large number of riders. Add a good connection to the to be extended Central Rail line to 38th, and, and to East Line bound train at the same location, and, ridership would increase even further.

So, what is the plan to be acted upon at the 11/26/13 hearing?

(In my strong opinion, if the choice has to be made between double tracking the line the entire length and using DMUs versus a single track main and EMUs the choice is obvious: go with double tracks and dmu power)

[Wizened Variations]

Put this also in Denver etc.

Eastern Coloradoans and others who have lived for years out in the "nothing to interrupt viewing the sky country" can have their own brand of wisdom.

I remember talking to an old dry land farmer in a rural greasy spoon about windbreaks and houses.

In the conversation he commented on a peculiarity about windbreaks and new homes.

"Young people building their first home out on the prairie too often design their house as though the trees that make up their windbreak are already grown. They plant two foot tall trees to the northwest of their new home, and, plan their windows as if the newly planted trees are twenty feet high. Which, of course, the trees are not. Then, when the winter wind comes out the northwest in the winter, too big windows on that side let the cold in."

The big problem with Union Station is that facility usage will take years to get to full growth (then it will keep growing and the design flaws of DUS will show, but that is a different story)

1. The first facility that will open up that will feed people through Union Station in any numbers* likely will be the Underground Bus Station. Bus station users, as shown at the Market Street Station now, need little more than a very small store selling coffee, manufactured donuts, candies etc., and, tend, IMO, to buy their goods when ENTERING the facility and consume the products while waiting there for the next bus.

Much of this group that commutes downtown will want to use the Free Metro-ride. However, I suspect that due to on public street running the frequency X capacity will be far lower than the Mall Shuttle, and, due to entry being at the south end of the Underground, that a significant portion of bus commuters going downtown will walk to the north end of the Underground or the intermediate exit, and catch the Mall Shuttle either way.

[IMO, the majority of the light rail users at DUS who are commuting into and out of downtown will avoid the walk through the Underground and will use the Mall Shuttle(s). I can perceive little reason for a light rail user to walk 800 or so feet underground with a cup of coffee or a newspaper purchased at the Union Station, even over the long term. A glorified roach coach or street vendor might work positioned near the light rail platform, but, the light rail cars and platforms would get the resulting trash.]


2. The second facility to become active (outside of Amtrak) will be the heavy rail station. The first 'major tenant' will be the DIA line.

The traffic inbound will consist of 'business travelers' who did not rent cars at DIA, some workers from DIA, downtown dwellers who live within 10-15 minutes who tote their luggage home, and, those who live in Denver for which the connections (and their physical health) enable transfer to Underground bus or to the light rail (if the Peoria Station interface between the light rail and the DIA rail is designed correctly, additional traffic will be generated. This is a direct function of DIA train frequency, also. I hope that a siding can be built for Peoria Station to DUS trains that operate at a high frequency. In this case, info in point 3 would apply.)
Outbound traffic will be the previously mentioned in reverse. This group will be more likely to pick up a cup of coffee or a donut, but not much more, en route to the heavy rail platform.

3. The North and future lines. The North Line, despite my reservations, will generate the most traffic into the station** Those commuting into downtown will either try to take the Free Metroride or take their chances and catch the Mall Shuttle via Wynkoop.

Those traveling inbound, IMO, will tend not to purchase even a cup of coffee as they will go to a Starbucks located closer to their work place.

Those outbound will be more likely to purchase coffee as they will have to wait in queue on the platform for their trains.

Addendum:

Cold Weather

A. During cold weather light rail users could well congregate at the north end of the Underground. *** I doubt very much that a light rail user will want to wait 800 feet away at the Union Station terminal.

B. Heavy rail commuters will wait in the terminal as long as possible, drink coffee, and complain. This will be the true market for something like Starbucks, but is YEARS away.

Union Station is not NYC Grand Central and will never be much of a tourist destination. While beautiful, Denver's Union Station is a 2nd rate train Station compared to the great stations in both the US and in Europe. Consequently, Union Station will become what a rail station is supposed to be: a busy place people will want to spend a minimum amount of time in (unless one is a guest in the boutique hotel and not desiring to mingle with the unwashed)

Union Station will have more than enough users to support a Starbucks...by 2020 or so.


*Amtrak, as is the case today, will feed very few passengers through Union Station. However, as the Amtrak train, particularly east bound is often late, the few waiting to board can wait a long time. This one group might consume food etc., but, the timing when the train comes through is irregular, and, hence would be difficult for a vendor to schedule. In addition, the amount of passenger traffic is so low, no retailer who would want to stay in business would desire to serve that market alone, if they wanted to stay in business.

**I hope the RTD planners make the track nearest to Union Station the North line track. Fortunately, the line will be EMU and both the North Line and the DIA line should have the same platform heights, I suspect, so line preference could simply be a matter of track switching. I am also assuming that the Peoria Station will not have an additional siding for Peoria Station to Union Station trains, so DIA train frequency (and possibly light rail traffic too) will be low and the resulting wait times will discourage use.

***The Underground's north exit while aesthetically pleasing is poorly designed for entry and exit. This flaw, caused by having to position the elevator right between the exit doors due to concourse width and buried bus corridor being literally feet to the north, can be remedied easily by widening the small exit foyer to the edge of the canopy, and, putting more exit doors on the east side. Hopefully, this redo could be done before the Underground is opened....

[bunt_q]

Did your 51st-stater dryland farmer offer any suggestions as to how he would design it better in the short term? Or did he just want to bitch about the naivete of the young whippersnappers? I suspect the latter. Real pearl of homegrown Americana wisdom there: trees take time to grow. I suppose those educamated cityfolk don't have enough dirt under their fingernails to have sorted that one out for themselves.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did your 51st-stater dryland farmer offer any suggestions as to how he would design it better in the short term? Or did he just want to bitch about the naivete of the young whippersnappers? I suspect the latter. Real pearl of homegrown Americana wisdom there: trees take time to grow. I suppose those educamated cityfolk don't have enough dirt under their fingernails to have sorted that one out for themselves.

I think most of the old fellers out there would regard this as humorous. Part of the humor, I suspect, would relate to the big ranch style double garage new homes many of the young couples want, as the old fellers were raised in small salt box houses 2 or more per bedroom.

The young people, having heard their objections to such grandiosity, then go out and do it anyway.

Like we all did....

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

I think most of the old fellers out there would regard this as humorous. Part of the humor, I suspect, would relate to the big ranch style double garage new homes many of the young couples want, as the old fellers were raised in small salt box houses 2 or more per bedroom.

For what it's worth, the big gubmint (that the old fellers created in their own youths, though they'll never admit it now) probably wouldn't let a big bad developer come in and build a bunch of salt box houses anymore, anyways.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

For what it's worth, the big gubmint (that the old fellers created in their own youths, though they'll never admit it now) probably wouldn't let a big bad developer come in and build a bunch of salt box houses anymore, anyways.

Well, if they were within 1 hour by road from the intersection of I-25 and I-70, and none of their kids were worth "horse manure", they likely would cash out.

(This also becomes a problem as real estates rise and farm prices increase slower than those taxes, in their defense. Also, when a successful farmer has more than one child that wants to farm, and, all of the children want to slit each other's throat over it, cashing out can be a good thing.... "To Hell with them, I moving to Roswell...")

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Well, if they were within 1 hour by road from the intersection of I-25 and I-70, and none of their kids were worth "horse manure", they likely would cash out.

(This also becomes a problem as real estates rise and farm prices increase slower than those taxes, in their defense. Also, when a successful farmer has more than one child that wants to farm, and, all of the children want to slit each other's throat over it, cashing out can be a good thing.... "To Hell with them, I moving to Roswell...")

There is no such thing as a successful farmer within 1 hour by road from the intersection of I-25 and I-70 (at least, to the east). There are farmers who can make money through government food price subsidies and artificially cheap water. But it would make more sense to move another 50,000 people from Iowa and Illinois here, let them sprawl all over the plains east of us, and save that land out east for farming. Which, incidentally, is exactly what rising real estate prices are enabling.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There is no such thing as a successful farmer within 1 hour by road from the intersection of I-25 and I-70 (at least, to the east). There are farmers who can make money through government food price subsidies and artificially cheap water. But it would make more sense to move another 50,000 people from Iowa and Illinois here, let them sprawl all over the plains east of us, and save that land out east for farming. Which, incidentally, is exactly what rising real estate prices are enabling.

There have been successful farmers between Greeley and Denver for years, as long as they had irrigation rights for South Platte Water. Irrigation ditches and storage lakes are widely scattered from Denver north to Fort Collins and out east paralleling the South Platte.

Of course, farms have been consolidating and becoming corporate rather than family types for a long time, and, these are the farms get the bulk of the government subsidies, whether via financial 'kickbacks' or via the acceptance of undocumented labor.

I suspect that our nation will evolve into increasingly dense development over what we already have paved over, Bunt.

After all, "Green" is just another word for the ever increasing prices of minerals, energy, food, medicine, and, transportation (public transportation of some sort inevitably will be more important in Colorado in the future*).

Besides the only way we could employ all those new Eastern Coloradoans would be to have them work remotely, and, G*d knows, anything work that can be done via the internet can be done anywhere in the world (including blog comments....).

*Hook to topic

[Wizened Variations]

I found this on Skyscrapercity, under Japan | Urban Transporation, entry #6266, blogger Quashlo. I took the youtube link- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxqp67gQzhw.

The entry is titled ３月２５日からひたちＢＲＴ運行開始（前面展望. This concerns the opening day of a short BRT line.

When you watch it, turn the sound off and look at the planning.

A) The BRT runs on a single lane, with passing stops next to street intersections and pedestrian crosswalks.. A pedestrian and bicycle path parallels the bus line.

(Signals are present at some passing slots which inform the driver about presence or absence of an oncoming bus).

B) The scale is small, and, obviously is not in snow country due to the width of the right-of-way and very close proximity of houses.

(If we did something like this in Denver we would need room for snow plows).


This is a very well thought out small scale BRT, and, is used by conventional buses for portions of their routes. And it only has to be one lane wide, except for short passing lanes. Something like this could run down the center of our wide boulevards rather easily, eh?............

[DevilsRider]

Site visitor from Phoenix here...I have a bit of an odd request. Does anyone have a picture of the Union Station/17th B-Cycle station they could share with me? It would really come in handy for a bike-share project I'm working on...thank you in advance!

[PLANSIT]

This one?

[DevilsRider]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

This one?

That could be the one...B-Cycle's map shows one at 17th and Chestnut, though, right by whatever that awning is covering (stairs? escalator bay?) next to the light rail station on the west end of the Union Station area. Is there also one there, or just the one right in front of Union Station proper?

If only I could convince my boss that "bike-share station research" was a good enough reason for a company-funded trip back to Denver!

[bobg]

Originally Posted by DevilsRider

That could be the one...B-Cycle's map shows one at 17th and Chestnut, though, right by whatever that awning is covering (stairs? escalator bay?) next to the light rail station on the west end of the Union Station area. Is there also one there, or just the one right in front of Union Station proper?

If only I could convince my boss that "bike-share station research" was a good enough reason for a company-funded trip back to Denver!

There is a different B-Cycle station at 17th and Chestnut near the LRT.

The B-cycle station at the entrance to Union Station that Plansit linked to was moved for Union Station's renovation (I think to 17th and blake), but the last plan I saw said it is supposed to be moved back when the renovation is over.

[Wizened Variations]

We have been conspicuously silent about the violence that has occurred at the 30th and Downing light rail station.

A) Do the 3 (now two) closely spaced stations provide a hop and jump, non-pay service for underemployed and unemployed youths in the area?

B) Should a police attended kiosk, manned during light rail operating hours, be built at the station?

C) Any ideas?

(What we do not discuss here is as important, I suppose, as what we do...)

[Zmapper]

Play classical music.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Zmapper

Play classical music.

LMAO!

(I do assume you are talking about European classical music, not US 20th Century 'Classical Music' and certainly not best sellers from the 21st Century. I suspect, too, that you do not mean Classical Ragas, or Shamisen music from the Tokugawa Shogunate.')

[Zmapper]

I honestly don't care what type, just as long as it best deters crime.

[Wizened Variations]

I believe the crime rate on the Welton Street RTD stations can be reduced by removing a second stop (27th and Welton?), extending the line to a large station where the North Line and DIA right-of-way run parallel, and, moving all bus service to that station. The second track might be placed on California.

Combine this with talked about plans to make a circulator street car that would enable small cars to be run on a separate route. Run single car street cars with the tram driver sitting out in the open, as they do on buses. Permit entry only through front double doors adjacent to the engineer.

In the interim, put a kiosk type manned police station at the 30th and Welton Station. The policeman should be with the City of Denver and connected via phone link to any and all light rail trains that use the line. AND, remove the 27th and Welton Station

Notices should be posted at stations like the warning notices placed in buses, i.e., separate charges in addition to city of Denver charges will be filed for X offences with up to $750,000 fine and five years in prison.

And, prosecute- no sociological excuses.

[seventwenty]

From today's DP: http://www.denverpost.com/editorials...urban-dwellers

Originally Posted by The Denver Post Editorial Board

The framework Denver has proposed for managing on-street parking in high-demand areas is a rational approach to a controversial issue for those living in or near downtown.

Generally speaking, we like the plan.

However, we would offer some cautionary observations that center on fees and the potential to use permitting to discourage people from having cars. The city must be careful not to use a proposed residential parking permit fee, capped at $40 annually, as a revenue generator that outstrips the costs involved in issuing permits.

. . . .

Why would we worry about such a thing? The city's 2010 strategic parking plan explains how the city in 2008 made $8 million from parking.


. . . .

Managing on-street parking in high-demand urban areas so residents have a chance of finding a parking spot near their homes is responsible governing. Using it as a tool to make money would be another matter entirely.

Nor do we believe it would be right for the city to manipulate permitting rules to discourage car ownership.