DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

So with the W line opening, RTD is about to have a bazillion people coming into Union Station for the first time. Anyone want to take bets on how quickly pressure increases to either consolidate the Auraria West and Mile High stations, or else figure out how to run express trains? It's one thing to make two stops in 300 feet for the occasional sports-event-bound rider. Quite another to waste time for 30,000 commuters per day.

I'd love to hear the arguments in favor of keeping both. Especially considering they are as close together as the LRT and the rest on Union Station, which we're meant to accept is a negligible walking distance.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So with the W line opening, RTD is amount to have a bazillion more people coming into Union Station for the first time. Anyone want to take bets on how quickly pressure increases to either consolidate the Auraria West and Mile High station, or else figure out how to run express trains? It's one thing to make two stops in 300 feet for the occasional sports-event-bound rider. Quite another to waste time for 30,000 commuters per day.

HEAR HEAR!!!

More terrible compromises for the light rail rider.

Newest schedule C/EW lines

http://www3.rtd-denver.com/schedules...e=3&lineName=W

Westbound between 5:59A and 6:51 (not including 5:59) there are 12 trains west bound and east bound. 24 trains per hour. One train movement every 2.5 minutes. Same pattern for the next hour. This between 2 tracked Auraria West (was supposed to be 3 tracked) and Union Station with 3 tracks.


2nd:

I talked to a college student who stated that to get from anywhere on the West line (west of Auraria West) to the Auraria stop on Colfax will take 2 transfers, one at Auraria West and the 2nd at 10th and Osage. This also applies for W line traffic to the Theatre District.

Likewise someone on the H train from 9 Mile to go anywhere west of Auraria West on the W line will have to transfer twice, likely at Broadway for a C, or E train, and then at Auraria West.

This might not seem like much to the more agile (with time to burn) but to the elderly who do not want to burden light rail engineers with manually lowering and raising ramps, this is another reason to use a car. With non-rush hour frequencies why even bother to take the light rail at all.

3rd

I have hated the Bowlen/Bronco Station effect on the DUS light rail access line since it was built.

With a train movement every 2.5 minutes when the W line opens up, the problem will get even worse. Consider, too, that C, and, E trains have to merge (going south) at Colfax- car and pedestrian traffic effects on the C, F, and H trains already cause waiting to go south at the Colfax 'Y'- this will tend to back up THROUGH the Auraria West station.

Best solution, IMO, would be to close either the Auraria West Station or the Bronco Station, make one large 3 track station on a straighter ROW at the new station, and, add an extra track or two for 500 or so meters south of the Colfax Y.

A simple short term solution would be to only stop at the Bronco Station only when games are being played, and adjust schedules in real time. That would save a couple of minutes.


4th

With so much planning concerning increasing the capacity of the 16th Street Mall Shuttle, and, ancillary shuttle routes, a Triangle track interchange should have been (and do it soon please!) so that W line traffic can go south of the Auraria West Station. Maybe let the occasional W clone go the D,F, and, H route into Uptown (less important than the making the W line have the southbound option). While this ideally would involve running 4 tracks between the W line to DUS access line and the East Colfax viaduct, at the expanse of two street intersections that could be cut and covered, the payoff would be immediate and enormous.

If the W line had connections to the south, but, not to the C, F, and, H line, then occasional trains could go to Broadway (add a couple of tracks, and, build a REAL station there!!!). Make the platform at Osage wider. Add an additional track - say 10 cars long, south of Colfax on the Corridor line. At that point the entire system would be a one transfer system with multiple buffer tracks for trains to be passed when conditions at the W line DUS line interchange bog down, and/or trains go off schedule on the C,F, and, H lines.


But, the gross developers of the DUS station do not WANT this. They want the extra foot traffic, naturally.

5th:

We will need expresses of some kind. I have a suspicion that going from Osage to DUS by light rail will take as long as 15 minutes, at times, soon.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Zmapper

Yea, relocation cost would be an issue. At least in 2002 the Union Station area was little more than a dirt field, whereas today there are buildings

The best analogue I can think of is the DC Metro system. To change trains there, it is as simple as exiting the Red line train, using one escalator, and boarding the Blue line train. The platforms are stacked directly above one another, in a "+" layout. This is what I would aim to emulate with a 19th street underground LRT extension.

As a side note, the C line only runs at peak times, with the E running at all other times. In order to go to Union Station outside of rush hour, a customer would have to change trains at I-25/Broadway. In other words, Union Station is more convenient for customers between I-25/Broadway and Southmoor, the D line with a hypothetical transfer at 38th/Blake is more convenient for those southwest of I-25/Broadway, and the G/I-225 line with a transfer at Peoria is more convenient for customers at Dayton, Nine Mile, and the Southeast stations.

To be clear, I only used Belmar as an example because it is a major pull one transfer from the D line. The "No one works at Belmar" comment is blatantly false, given the size of the shopping center. An acute problem with intercity neighborhoods is that many unskilled jobs available to residents lacking education or advanced training are located in the suburbs, forcing people to spend money on cars or compete against their neighbors for jobs within a shorter distance. An efficient transit system is effective at removing barriers to employment, allowing people to access sustaining jobs with less difficulty. Destroying the overall efficiency makes it more difficult for customers to access destinations with a weaker pull then downtown.

This isn't just related to relatively unskilled employment, either. Regardless of the purpose of the trip, it is likely that some people are travelling to all places in the metro area. A transit system based on a grid is the most efficient way to service the trips with lesser demand, such as from one neighborhood to another neighborhood. Not all transit customers are going to work downtown.

I don't doubt that given the pull of Civic Center v. Belmar, but it is important to keep in mind context. Route 28 also runs from 38th/Downing to the Civic Center area, but there is not (nor could it really be feasible) to have a direct bus to all other destination the metro area from one point. The Civic Center is only about 1/2 mile away from a D line station, on the far edge of feasible walking distance, but still practical. I personally consider the Mall Ride to have roughly half the normal transfer penalty, given its very high frequency and function as basically a sidewalk with a motor.

Very astute, well written. But, all is politics, money, and, power. And, yet, despite innumerable design and ROW mistakes (and so many have argued and pleaded, who had no money to have the power to stop these mistakes from being set in steel and concrete), by US standards, Denver is making something very good.*

By world standards the system, at best, is mediocre.

*Better designed rows and stations were made in the US in the 1920s and 1930s, hence no excellent rating.

[EngiNerd]

Some construction porn at the FasTracks East Line rail bridge at Pena...for those who are into that kind of thing (you count me as one of those)

• Video Link

[LAM]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So with the W line opening, RTD is about to have a bazillion people coming into Union Station for the first time. Anyone want to take bets on how quickly pressure increases to either consolidate the Auraria West and Mile High stations, or else figure out how to run express trains? It's one thing to make two stops in 300 feet for the occasional sports-event-bound rider. Quite another to waste time for 30,000 commuters per day.

I'd love to hear the arguments in favor of keeping both. Especially considering they are as close together as the LRT and the rest on Union Station, which we're meant to accept is a negligible walking distance.

I think they should just use the Mile High station for events only and note that on their maps and at the station.

Or, they could close Mile High and build a pedestrian causeway from the Auraria West station across all the highway and rail lines with a moving walkway. I saw a similar arrangement in Yokohama. Ours would not even need to be covered. Although it might be nice with all the exhaust and noise.

Here is an angled view on Google Maps. Here is a photo of the causeway entry below. Now if we could have a cool tower like that one.



Panoramio Source by kumakkinen

[bunt_q]

There was a lot of discussion when the Central Platte Valley line was first built about a bridge from that station to the stadium. Nobody could find the money. But it was seriously considered.

[Zmapper]

Transfort in Fort Collins and COLT in Loveland have a new study out about the feasibility of combining operations.

http://www.fcgov.com/transfort/pdf/F...prill_2013.pdf

Perhaps a copy editor should have looked over the URL before it was published...

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/mo...OBYu5F/O7W7Amf

[EngiNerd]

7.5mil! They could just run a little shuttle service for way less than that. The station, from what it looks like will be pretty dang close to the VA...no more than 1/4 mile, not 1/2 mile. So they want a Ped. bridge over Fitz. Pkwy?

Here is the station.
http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/image_v...3&section=i225

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Some construction porn at the FasTracks East Line rail bridge at Pena...for those who are into that kind of thing (you count me as one of those)

• Video Link

Wow!!! Very nice...Lets keep it up the good work. It's so good to hear the construction is doing very well.

When it will completely? On which the year is that?

[Wizened Variations]

I rode the W line, yesterday (and most of the rest of the light rail system also).

I have already given my opinion about the design mess between the Colfax Viaduct, the Sports Authority Station, and, the Auraria West Station.

The W line, IMO, consists of three distinct segments: the Auraria West to the Wadsworth Station segment (segment ‘A’), the Wadsworth to the Federal Center Station segment (Segment ‘B’), and, the Federal to Golden Station segment (segment C)

Segment A:

This is a slow travel speed segment covering 6 stations. As the crow flies (not route miles), the distance between the Auraria West Station and the Wadsworth Station is 3.5 miles (+/-). This distance is covered in 13 minutes, for an average a bit over 16 mph. Add the 1 mile, as the crow flies for the time it takes to travel by the W train from Auraria West to DUS –5 minutes, and the average mph for the two line segments decreases to approximately 15 mph at an average time of 18 minutes.

IMO, this segment will get the most benefits from those auto drivers who wish to commute to LODO, with the benefits decreasing the further the commuter needs to travel south along the 16th Street Mall Shuttle Spine. For example, if the commuter wishes to exit the 16th Street Mall spine at California Street and use the Shuttle from DUS Light, the user can add 1 minute to disembark the train, 1 minute to walk to the Shuttle bus, 2 minutes to let it fill up, and, approximately 45 seconds per block via shuttle (14 blocks)- about 8 minutes, for addition 12 minutes. Using as the crow flies from Auraria West to 16th and California, about 1.3 miles and the 12 minutes figure, the average mph to cover this distance is 7.4 mph, and the total time to cover from Wadsworth Station -excluding user time to get to Wadsworth Station- now is 30 minutes. Add 15 (optimistic) minutes to access Wadsworth, and, the basic time is approximately 45 minutes.

This compares to 43 minutes via the West Colfax to the Civic Center from the bus stop at Wads and Colfax (excluding time to get to the bus stop).

Where this gets interesting would be for the same commuter to want to go to the Colfax at Auraria Station area. While the distance as the crow flies is about 3000 feet, a pedestrian would travel a longer distance. I mention this as this involves a commuter makes the choice how fast to walk, weather to jay walk, use short cuts etc., which IMO would raise the distance to 4000’, and, delays to time taken apply.

So I will use 4000’ as the extreme and 3000’ as the minimum.

At the average speed of 3.1 mph (per Wikipedia) it would take approximately .183 hours to walk 3000’ (10.98 minutes averaged up to 11 minutes) and .248 (14.9 averaged up to 15 minutes) hours to walk 4000’. Add 1 minute for disembarking. So, to get from Auraria West to Auraria at Colfax on foot would take between 12 and 16 minutes. Add 15 minutes to get to Wadsworth, and the figure is 30 minutes to Auraria West and a total time of between 42 and 46 minutes to get to Auraria at Colfax.

the two transfer routine, taking the C, or E, train south from Auraria West to Osage then the D, F, or the H train back north to the Colfax Auria Station takes far too long, except at rush hour to be even worth mentioning

My point is that the Wadsworth Station is a time boundary. Remember, that someone driving a car does not necessary need 15 minutes to get to Colfax at Wadsworth (and turn east) or to get to 6th Avenue (hence east then north on I-25 to Colfax).

Bus users are different animal. Many are not able to drive, do not have the money to afford any car, or are physically disadvantaged. For the ardent bus user, the keys are not the length of time riding the bus, but, the time to walk to the bus stop, wait at bus stops, waiting at transfer points, and, the time and effort necessary to walk from their final stop to their final destination. Many serious bus commuters consider 60 minutes a short commute time. 90 minute commutes are common. Bus users are going to flock to Wadsworth, Sheridan, and, Federal Stations. IMO this will be far less true further west on the W line.

Segment 2

Segment 2 is my personal favorite of any part of the W line. The segment is fast, with maximum speeds approaching 50 mph. All stations with the exception of the Garrison Station, have park and rides. Garrison Station, at present, has neither connecting bus lines nor parking facilities, but, IMO has very good TOD potential.

Segment 2 feeds into the Federal Center Station, and, the Station is truly the crown jewel, IMO of the W line. Huge amounts of under developed property exists to the north of the station platform. Enough room exists in the 1 level RTD parking to build vertical parking as well as bring in close in commercial development. With the addition of shuttle service to the Fed Center, and, free bus service between the station and Simms Street, the area, IMO should boom.

If I worked at the Fed Center, I would seriously look at living somewhere close to a light rail station on the West line (other than Golden) and rail commuting.

This now is an excellent set up for those working at the now reinvigorated Union Blvd corridor between Alameda and 6th Avenue (walking north across the 6th Ave Bridge is horrible, and, the distance as the crow flies from the Federal Center Platform is close to 3000’. Due to distance problems accessing Union, the actual distance is almost 4000’. The vast majority of future pedestrian and bike friendly TOD development will not be north of 6th where Union Blvd is renamed as Simms). New pedestrian friendly paths need to be made north of West 2nd Place to make the TOD area shine. I have little doubt that 1,000,000 square feet of office space, 2 or 3 thousand high rise residential units, 250,000 square feet of retail and, a great entertainment area could develop here.

The area could easily put Lakewood's Belmar to shame, and, IMO, is even better than the very good TOD potential area near the Colorado Blvd Station on the Southeast line.

For those working downtown, using the facility currently is ‘iffi.’ The same figures can be used that I used for Segment 1, but add 14 or 15 minutes to them. The problem here also is just how close 6th Avenue is here, and, how far commuters using 6th Ave can travel in 56 to 57 minutes (adjusted).

Regardless, segments A and B of the W line are very cool, because there are two destination magnets at either end of the segments. On top of that, the Federal Center TOD, IMO, has the potential to be the finest TOD development anywhere on the light rail system.

The design and execution of this segment is almost brilliant.


Segment 3

Segment 3 is horrid for many reasons. Among them are:

the one track alignment, and the resulting low frequencies;
the convoluted right-of-way;
the end point being at the Jeffco County building;
the closeness for the auto commuter to the soon to be booming Federal Center Area (why bother to commute that short a distance on a train after parking?);
and the time distance to downtown.

CDOT and other players destroyed this connection. Even the Stevinsons could not stop the planning mess (they had wanted an alignment on the north side of 6th and a stop near their very well run mall which would have involved tunneling under sixth, but no huge twisted S flyover).The alignment should have been double tracked, straighter, and, stub ended closer to old town Golden.

Segment 3 is a true disappointment.

Calculations are approximate.
Distance calculated via simple measurement upon Google maps.
Current W train schedules used.

[Cirrus]

New miniproject. With the W light rail now open, i want to know the opening dates for all the big transit things going on. Not just rail lines, also the big stations, and the Fort Collins BRT. Here's what I've got so far. Did I miss any? Nothing interesting in Colorado Springs, right?

• Aspen BRT: September 2013
• Fort Collins Mason BRT: Early 2014
• Denver Union Station: Mid 2014
• Denver downtown circulator: Mid 2014
• US-36 HOT lanes: Late 2015
• Airport rail line: 2016
• Gold rail line: 2016
• NW rail line (to Westy): 2016
• DIA rail station: ? (presumably 2016 when the Eagle projects open)
• I-225 LRT: 2016
• North rail line (to Stock Show): 2017
• Central Corridor extension: Unknown, supposedly by 2018
• North rail line (to end of line): Unknown
• NW rail line (to Boulder/Longmont): Unknown
• US-36 actual BRT: Unknown
• SW LRT extension: Unknown
• SE LRT extension: Unknown
• Colfax streetcar/premium bus: Unknown

[PLANSIT]

Central Corridor as Streecar has not been decided. Should just call it Central Corridor Extension.

DIA opens with East Line, so 2016, I'd assume.

Since the planning process is pretty far along, might as well include Colfax Corridor Connections.

Could include Aspen BRT as well.

There are a handful of streetcar concept corridors being tossed around but none are very far along.

[BG918]

.The alignment should have been double tracked, straighter, and, stub ended closer to old town Golden.

I agree it's unfortunate the W line doesn't go further into Golden. The same will be said for the NW line when it doesn't go closer to Pearl St and CU. Though I have hope that someday the Gold line would be extended past its final stop at Ward Rd and continue along the existing tracks into downtown Golden, probably ending at a park-n-ride just east of Washington near the Coors brewery.

[taylor23]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

New miniproject. With the W light rail now open, i want to know the opening dates for all the big transit things going on. Not just rail lines, also the big stations, and the Fort Collins BRT. Here's what I've got so far. Did I miss any? Nothing interesting in Colorado Springs, right?

• Aspen BRT: September 2013
• Fort Collins Mason BRT: Early 2014
• Denver Union Station: Mid 2014
• Denver downtown circulator: Mid 2014
• US-36 HOT lanes: Late 2015
• Airport rail line: 2016
• Gold rail line: 2016
• NW rail line (to Westy): 2016
• DIA rail station: ? (presumably 2016 when the Eagle projects open)
• I-225 LRT: 2016
• North rail line (to Stock Show): 2017
• Central Corridor extension: Unknown, supposedly by 2018
• North rail line (to end of line): Unknown
• NW rail line (to Boulder/Longmont): Unknown
• US-36 actual BRT: Unknown
• SW LRT extension: Unknown
• SE LRT extension: Unknown
• Colfax streetcar/premium bus: Unknown

Perhaps not necessarily local transit but won’t Amtrak be one of the first users of the new Union Station? Not sure of the exact layout but it seems like the Amtrak temporary station is where the Gold/NW tracks will come in.

[Cirrus]

^
Presumably. If not, why bother reopening before 2016?

[bcp]

any takers on the DIA / East line being open before 2016? They are making incredible progress.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by bcp

any takers on the DIA / East line being open before 2016? They are making incredible progress.

It'll probably be done in early 2015, seeing as there still needs to be a pretty major bridge built across Peoria but, they still need to do something like 6 months of testing.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bcp

any takers on the DIA / East line being open before 2016? They are making incredible progress.

Let me translate from bcp-ese for you guys.

"See, bring the private sector into transportation, give them a money motive, and they can beat deadlines better than government ever could."

In this case, bcp is right.

[Cirrus]

Oh god, please tell me this isn't the paint scheme they're actually going with.

from fluor