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  #141  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
I wonder how ethnic pride (or the trend in both the US and Canada of being "proud of your roots" or "rediscovering your culture" vs. the old school promotion of assimilation) will affect this?

Are modern day American youth of French Canadian descent in the NE proud of their connection to French Canada or do they see themselves as "regular Americans" now?

Then again, it seems like no matter how strong ethnic pride seems to be, getting one's heritage language "back" in the sense of re-learning a language lost in one's family is rare (no matter how proud many Italian Americans are, it seems like re-learning Italian is rare) -- it seems like keeping the language (or even just passing it on to kids) is a challenge. Unlike "fun", symbolic things like once a year festivals or things like re-learning how to cook one's ethnic cuisine, language retention seems more like a chore for many diasporas.
I am not aware of any renaissance of francophone/French Canadian/Québécois identity among Franco-Americans who are assimilated. (Those who still speak French retain some affinities though.)

Perhaps it's due to the fact that the homeland isn't a real country (even though it has some of the trappings of a country) and so you don't have the usual markers that people getting back in touch with their ethnic heritage often focus on, which are generally features of independent states - a World Cup soccer team is a really good example, though it's far from the only one.
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  #142  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 3:56 PM
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In spite of what's been said by others, I don't think it's entirely true that the whole story is that of freewheeling Toronto being held back by the teetotalling rest of Ontario. Only very small parts of Ontario would have very prohibitionist views on alcohol and Toronto has by far the largest population and the most seats in the legislature, and even moreso when you count the GTA and Golden Horseshoe. Attitudes towards alcohol aren't significantly different in Ottawa (certainly not, being right next to Quebec), London or Windsor, or even Kingston, than they are in Toronto.

Plus the City of Toronto has some authority itself when it comes to regulating alcohol use, and hasn't really loosened things up that much itself.

Generally speaking, Toronto can best be described as a "sensible" city. For a lot of people, that's actually a good thing.
Exactly. Toronto’s strict zoning (that is, essential ban outside the entertainment district) of clubs, it’s municipally enforces 2am bar closure time, and its strict noise by-laws are a locally controlled part of that conservatism that doesn’t seem to have any sort of pressure to change. Provincial alcohol regulations are just a cherry on top that realistically if Toronto pushed to change it could probably change.

The only reason things are finally loosening up a bit is we have an ex-hash dealer as a premier now who views alcohol regs as stupid and overly burdensome, and even then he can only enact small incremental changes to them. The government is facing big pushback just to sell booze in corner stores and the “legalization” of tailgating (still not the same as American tailgating) was roundly mocked in the Toronto media.

Saying Toronto’s conservatism is long gone is just sticking your fingers in your ears and going “lalalala”. It’s there, even if a lot of Toronto’s “scene” manages to flourish despite it.
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  #143  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Perhaps it's due to the fact that the homeland isn't a real country (even though it has some of the trappings of a country) and so you don't have the usual markers that people getting back in touch with their ethnic heritage often focus on, which are generally features of independent states - a World Cup soccer team is a really good example, though it's far from the only one.
Is the importance of a nation state "back home" a really strong factor for keeping ethnic heritage alive -- I'm thinking something like the Tibetan diaspora, Assyrian diaspora etc.? Also, perhaps the Ur-example, the Jewish diaspora (prior to the state of Israel in modern times)?

Also, ethnic revivals in the 60s and 70s included African Americans re-asserting African-ness (e.g. choosing names like Malik, Ayesha etc.) that were not associated with reconnecting to a physical nation-state or learning the language of a nation state.

Thinking about it, perhaps it's just that language learning is hard, and many people think the reward of it probably seems not worth it honestly (being able to communicate with people outside the Anglosphere and watching original untranslated, undubbed, unsubtitled non-Anglosphere stuff may not be a high priority). Lots of people love to take part in ethnic revivals and resurgence movements without the language component. You can wear the dress of your ancestors' culture, cook the food, with far less time commitment than re-learning the ancestors' language.

Even the most proudest members of many of the most famous ethnic communities still often show their pride, expressing it most fully, in the English language -- e.g. African American music, Jewish comedy, Irish literature. Being able to create and express their ethnic identity through the Anglosphere in many cases seems to override desire to re-make a connection outside the Anglosphere.
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  #144  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 5:44 PM
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Toronto needs to do a better job at branding. It’s not top of mind when many people in key markets think “Canada”.
I personally don't agree that Toronto is not top of mind (espcially for those in key markets). But I get that Montreal still has a strong pull for various reasons.

Global City Lab recently did a brand value ranking study and lo and behold Toronto sits at number 10 globally. So there ya go...


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  #145  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 8:13 PM
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Maybe Montreal is still dominant in the minds of some non Canadian people over the age of 50, but in the 18-34 age group (and likely 35-49 as well) Toronto is by far the #1 Canadian city.
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  #146  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Is the importance of a nation state "back home" a really strong factor for keeping ethnic heritage alive -- I'm thinking something like the Tibetan diaspora, Assyrian diaspora etc.? Also, perhaps the Ur-example, the Jewish diaspora (prior to the state of Israel in modern times)?

Also, ethnic revivals in the 60s and 70s included African Americans re-asserting African-ness (e.g. choosing names like Malik, Ayesha etc.) that were not associated with reconnecting to a physical nation-state or learning the language of a nation state.

Thinking about it, perhaps it's just that language learning is hard, and many people think the reward of it probably seems not worth it honestly (being able to communicate with people outside the Anglosphere and watching original untranslated, undubbed, unsubtitled non-Anglosphere stuff may not be a high priority). Lots of people love to take part in ethnic revivals and resurgence movements without the language component. You can wear the dress of your ancestors' culture, cook the food, with far less time commitment than re-learning the ancestors' language.

Even the most proudest members of many of the most famous ethnic communities still often show their pride, expressing it most fully, in the English language -- e.g. African American music, Jewish comedy, Irish literature. Being able to create and express their ethnic identity through the Anglosphere in many cases seems to override desire to re-make a connection outside the Anglosphere.
I would agree that language learning is an extra part of maintaining the culture. As much as language is intertwined with culture, culture is still greater than just language. You don’t necessarily have to know Spanish to enjoy authentic tacos and burritos and you don’t need to know German to learn and gain from famous psychologists like Jung, Freud, etc. The essence is what matters and I can only assume that all language does is act as a “gatekeeper” to a certain culture.
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  #147  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Maybe Montreal is still dominant in the minds of some non Canadian people over the age of 50, but in the 18-34 age group (and likely 35-49 as well) Toronto is by far the #1 Canadian city.
If you did a poll of the world's population I do think that Toronto would come out on top as the most recognized Canadian city, but I do think the results would have a lot of asterisks. Things aren't really as clear-cut as you are letting on. Canada is multi-polar and has many different niches and influences both here and throughout the world.

Even on this forum, people who are from places barely a day's drive from the CN Tower tell you than in Boston and New England, and even down into the NYC area, Montreal is often seen as at least equal to Toronto - and in some cases more recognized as THE Canadian city.

If you go to any francophone country and even any country that had any type of historic colonial relationship to France, anyone who isn't a geography geek (which is to say 95% of the population) will probably answer "Montreal" if you ask them to name a Canadian city. (Just as people in Quebec will answer Geneva if you ask them to name a Swiss city, with most probably thinking it's number one.)

This is not a Montreal-uber-alles thing BTW. For obvious reasons Montreal is quite a bit below the radar in China and India compared to Toronto and Vancouver. Even if it's a lot bigger than Vancouver.

Montreal is probably even below Winnipeg in the Philippines.

So... YMMV.
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  #148  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 11:38 PM
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When did Tororonto pass Montreal?

Tororonto Ontari-ari-ari-o. Anyone else remember Ontari-ari-ari-o?
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  #149  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 12:28 AM
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Maybe Montreal is still dominant in the minds of some non Canadian people over the age of 50, but in the 18-34 age group (and likely 35-49 as well) Toronto is by far the #1 Canadian city.

Lol I'm in my 30s, which is still old for this site I guess. Montreal isn't much smaller than Toronto, while still having a lot more flavor and uniqueness, for lack of a better way of putting it. And if you've visited NYC (or live here), the last thing that comes to mind when in Toronto is "big giant city". But that's it's whole shtick in Canada. If you've been to a real large city, Toronto (or San Francisco, or Boston, or DC), are not large cities.
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  #150  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 12:58 AM
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Lol I'm in my 30s, which is still old for this site I guess. Montreal isn't much smaller than Toronto, while still having a lot more flavor and uniqueness, for lack of a better way of putting it. And if you've visited NYC (or live here), the last thing that comes to mind when in Toronto is "big giant city". But that's it's whole shtick in Canada. If you've been to a real large city, Toronto (or San Francisco, or Boston, or DC), are not large cities.
Yes agreed. Montreal's downtown on a summer Saturday feels every bit as busy IMO. Toronto's Dundas square on Christmas Eve comes sort of close to a regular week night on Times square, at least in my experiences. In fairness, Toronto ,Boston, or San Fran are considered huge cities by most standards except those looking from their NYC, or Tokyo POV.


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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
When did Tororonto pass Montreal?

Tororonto Ontari-ari-ari-o. Anyone else remember Ontari-ari-ari-o?

Yup!..I'll do one better..I know this isn't the original, but Ontario was always referenced, with the versions we grew up with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPg77pCxpG8

Last edited by Razor; Feb 20, 2020 at 1:08 AM.
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  #151  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:11 AM
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To be fair, I do think Toronto really does stand out in something, which is it's multiculturalism. There is a noticeably different immigrant demographic than in NYC, and people seem to mix more than they do in the USA. But "diversity" is a wasting asset. You need a constant flow of large scale immigration or you are just left with 2nd and 3rd generation people who are no longer Asian, but Asian-Canadian, etc.
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  #152  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:24 AM
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Lol I'm in my 30s, which is still old for this site I guess.
For the young'uns around here (and to be honest, 30s is young compared to me) who have trouble thinking of Montreal as bigger than Toronto...there's a reason Toronto has a "Second City" comedy troupe.
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  #153  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by park123 View Post
Lol I'm in my 30s, which is still old for this site I guess. Montreal isn't much smaller than Toronto, while still having a lot more flavor and uniqueness, for lack of a better way of putting it. And if you've visited NYC (or live here), the last thing that comes to mind when in Toronto is "big giant city".
What New Yorkers think is hardly representative of global views though. Every city in the western world is small compared to NYC. The only ones that come close are London, Paris, and LA.
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  #154  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:28 AM
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To be fair, I do think Toronto really does stand out in something, which is it's multiculturalism. There is a noticeably different immigrant demographic than in NYC, and people seem to mix more than they do in the USA. But "diversity" is a wasting asset. You need a constant flow of large scale immigration or you are just left with 2nd and 3rd generation people who are no longer Asian, but Asian-Canadian, etc.
I think you may have some misconceptions about immigrant communities in NYC and in cities like Los Angeles and Houston. A recent study in Houston found something like 80% of high school kids responded that they had dated someone of a different race, culture, ethnicity and/or country of origin.

ETA: I forgot native language.
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  #155  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:32 AM
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What New Yorkers think is hardly representative of global views though. Every city in the western world is small compared to NYC. The only ones that come close are London, Paris, and LA.
I would say Chicago feels much closer (bigness wise) to New York than Paris does.
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  #156  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:32 AM
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^^ Paris is considerably larger than Chicago though.

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Maybe Montreal is still dominant in the minds of some non Canadian people over the age of 50, but in the 18-34 age group (and likely 35-49 as well) Toronto is by far the #1 Canadian city.
That's very true. For people under 40, Toronto as #1 is all they've ever known. Torontonians growing up today view Toronto as a big global city that can take on all comers. In most respects, they're correct. They have a ton more swagger, ambition, and confidence than the generations that came before them. It bodes well for Toronto's continued rise. Toronto doesn't want to be #15, #10, or even #2. If it doesn't happen, so be it, but the mindset is 'we want to be #1'. That's a significant change from anything we've seen before in this country.

Australians have that mindset too. They're no colossus but in their neck of the woods they dominate. It's produced a culture that's thinks it can be #1 in any thing they try. Canadians have historically been more like New Zealanders. Living next to a more dominant country, they're more content just competing than coming first.
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  #157  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:33 AM
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Those are old Provincial laws that Toronto was stuck with long after the city became a liberal stronghold. Do you really think most people in Toronto agree with all that stuff?

By the 1960s Toronto was right up there with San Francisco as a hotbed of counterculture with the whole Yorkville scene and places like Rochdale College. Of course the old guard at City Hall hated the hippies, but that was true in San Francisco at the time, too. American draft dodgers flocked to the city in the Vietnam era and other progressives (such as Jane Jacobs) came to Toronto from all over to enjoy the open and tolerant atmosphere in the core neighbourhoods.

A Toronto Star article from 2015 about Chrissie Hyndes autobiography, Reckless: My Life as a Pretender

https://www.thestar.com/entertainmen...m-toronto.html

The radicalism of stuff like the Yorkville scene, Rochdale College, the 70s/80s punk scene, and Toronto's long-standing counter-cultural/subcultural tradition in general was specifically a reaction to the conservatism of the ruling class. These wouldn't have existed in a more permissive society because there'd have been nothing to inspire that sort of rebellious response.

There was and still very much is a strain of paternalistic, archly-Protestant cultural conservatism that permeates Toronto's culture. However, it would be inaccurate to say that Toronto is defined by that conservatism, so much as it has been defined by the constant dichotomy and tension that exists when that culture and various alternative groups & ideologies compete for space.

(Also keep in mind that what we're talking about here is cultural conservatism, which is very much a different thing from political or religious conservatism. A lot of the most politically left-leaning people are also some of the most culturally conservative - eg. your quintessential Annex NIMBY type)
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  #158  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:42 AM
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There was and still very much is a strain of archly-Protestant cultural conservatism that permeates Toronto's culture.
When we moved from Texas to Toronto in 1971 (yes, I was alive in 1971) I remember my mom laughing at the fact that Eaton's closed the curtains in their window displays on Sundays because it was considered "sinful" to window shop on the "Lord's day." We were there for the last dying gasps of "Toronto the Good."

ETA: By the time we left 2 years later, they were showing soft-core porn films on Channel 79 (CITY) every Friday at midnight.
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  #159  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 1:48 AM
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Barcelona and Berlin have the economy/wealth of Cleveland, more or less. They're very prominent tourist cities and Berlin obviously has an incredible history, but they aren't huge economic centers. Toronto is significantly larger/wealthier but less globally prominent.
The prominence of global cities doesn't boil down to GDP though. It's important but just one of many metrics. Amsterdam and Stockholm are good examples of that. Many organizations place them on the same rung as Houston, San Francisco, and Washington despite being much smaller by population and GDP.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global...search_Network
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Last edited by isaidso; Feb 20, 2020 at 2:14 AM.
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  #160  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 2:05 AM
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But this is the core point many of us are trying to make: objectively, Toronto surpassed Montreal as Canada’s primary city decades ago, but subjectively-speaking, Toronto’s image among many non-Canadians has not caught up with this reality yet.

The OP of this thread reads, “When did Toronto pass Montreal?” Clearly - as is evidenced by this thread’s replies - Toronto has yet to pass Montreal in many people’s hearts and minds.

Toronto needs to do a better job at branding. It’s not top of mind when many people in key markets think “Canada”.
Agree with everything you're saying. It's par for the course for a city growing like this though. It's to be expected that non-locals would have perceptions of Toronto that don't reflect reality. What's true today will start looking out of date 5 years later. Even locals have trouble keeping up and don't know what to make of it all.

It's a bit pointless trying to get a sense of Toronto till the dust starts to settle, really. I remember a conversation on here about a decade ago and people were were questioning whether Toronto could catch Detroit. We don't have those conversations any more so I guess that's progress.
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World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
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Last edited by isaidso; Feb 20, 2020 at 2:18 AM.
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