Halifax Transit

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

An elevated monorail would be cheaper than underground transit, but costlier than bus-based transit and likely also costlier than surface-level rail transit whether rail or bus. So cost-wise it has an advantage over some options and a disadvantage compared to others. Politically it has the benefits of not having to take away many (or any?) road lanes which is one political hot-button, but it has the disadvantage of being visually/aesthetically intrusive. Many people would complain that it was ugly (regardless of what it looks like) and many would complain that it affects the "character" of the city and streetscapes.

It's not as obtrusive as you may think. If you look at the more modern systems (see the first link in provided above), it's a pretty minimal single post and narrow box rail, with a relatively sleek, modern looking car system. You could also make the vertical supports visually appealing if you invested a bit more in aesthetics (but yes, Halifax is always cost averse).

[Phalanx]

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[Nouvellecosse]

Keep in mind that, as with all elevated systems, you can't just judge based on the track portions between stations. You also have to consider what the elevated stations will look like.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I’d argue that an elevated monorail system would be viewed as adding character by most, but the usual suspects would be out of their minds about cost.

The Wuppertal system sounds cool, but it would have to be a readily available system that has already had engineering development completed to be practical.

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

A monorail in Halifax? Bring it on please! The HRM/monorail jokes/memes/gifs/etc would be worth any cost...

• Video Link

EDIT: First time using the YOUTUBE tags. Why no thumbnail?

[goodgrowth]

Here is an example from Japan:






https://youtu.be/AXtAf1550Hg?t=61

In some ways it's less obtrusive than something like Skytrain as it's only held up in some areas by a single lane of poles.

Speed might be a bit slower though..

[Phalanx]

Here's the perspective from inside one (jump to about 1:15 into the video):
• Video Link
If you watch all the way to the end, it actually transitions to a tunnel through a hillside. Kind of neat.

They're not really that much slower, and given that they don't have to stop or mix with traffic at all, they're probably faster in many cases. They also work well for narrower streets as you find in many downtown areas.

It's also possible, in theory, to integrate stations with new building developments with some coordination with developers.

[goodgrowth]

How would it get across the harbour though? Wouldn't that be a requirement for any LRT-type system for Halifax?

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

How would it get across the harbour though? Wouldn't that be a requirement for any LRT-type system for Halifax?

Assuming there are weight allowances for it, it can be hung off the side of a bridge (I'd say below, but given that it was just raised to allow clearance for larger ships, that's a no-go). See the Rainbow Bridge and Yurikamome line in Tokyo (that's conventional monorail, but regardless...), or even down the middle of one if there's enough clearance. Beyond that, it's easy enough to include a solution with any potential new crossing.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Here is an example from Japan:






https://youtu.be/AXtAf1550Hg?t=61

In some ways it's less obtrusive than something like Skytrain as it's only held up in some areas by a single lane of poles.

Speed might be a bit slower though..

But where are the stations. We can judge the obtrusiveness once we see the stations as you can't just judge by looking at the guideway. Notably, Skytrain doesn't have any elevated stations downtown and outside of downtown the stations tend to be spaced much further apart.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But where are the stations. We can judge the obtrusiveness once we see the stations as you can't just judge by looking at the guideway. Notably, Skytrain doesn't have any elevated stations downtown and outside of downtown the stations tend to be spaced much further apart.

Here are 2+ pages worth... https://structurae.net/en/structures...tations/photos

[Nouvellecosse]

I know what the stations look like and they are indeed much more obtrusive. That's why I was objecting to people only posting pictures of the guideways to downplay the aesthetic impact of such systems.

[Phalanx]

...I don't think they're more obtrusive than any other mass transit station barring subways and smaller BRT stops? If you look at page 2 of the images, you can see some smaller examples (no bigger than a BRT stop, just a couple of stories high). Even the bigger examples are okay... big, yes, but I like the glass and iron aesthetic. As I mentioned above, with coordination they can be built in to new developments so you don't even see them at all.




This one is bigger, but I like the aesthetic:


And even basic utilitarian doesn't have to be awful:

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker for that system type, but can you really imagine people accepting one of these station buildings being built directly above a downtown street such as SGR or Barrington?






https://structurae.net/en/structures.../photos?min=25

I don't even know if I'd feel comfortable with it tbh. I'd have to give it some thought.

[Phalanx]

Sure, you can choose the worst and most dated looking ones, but you can see that there are plenty of nicer alternatives available. And again, the stations can be effectively hidden in or behind buildings, something you can't do with surface rail or buses.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Assuming there are weight allowances for it, it can be hung off the side of a bridge (I'd say below, but given that it was just raised to allow clearance for larger ships, that's a no-go). See the Rainbow Bridge and Yurikamome line in Tokyo (that's conventional monorail, but regardless...), or even down the middle of one if there's enough clearance. Beyond that, it's easy enough to include a solution with any potential new crossing.

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

How would it get across the harbour though? Wouldn't that be a requirement for any LRT-type system for Halifax?

Just imagine a new bridge at the southern end of Halifax/Dartmouth bringing this line across and over the harbour? It would make the city feel like a major metropolitan city.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker for that system type, but can you really imagine people accepting one of these station buildings being built directly above a downtown street such as SGR or Barrington?

I don't even know if I'd feel comfortable with it tbh. I'd have to give it some thought.

They built the Cogswell overpass And people are still talking about it. There will always be the detractors.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Just imagine a new bridge at the southern end of Halifax/Dartmouth bringing this line across and over the harbour? It would make the city feel like a major metropolitan city.



They built the Cogswell overpass And people are still talking about it. There will always be the detractors.

I agree. The biggest detriment to anything getting done around here is that people tend to focus on reasons that something shouldn’t happen rather than to use that energy to find ways to make it happen.

[Nouvellecosse]

If someone feels that there are important reasons why something shouldn't happen, why would they or should they focus solely on making it happen? Let's face it. I would never hesitate to support something that i was 100% sold on just because I was afraid of opposition. But if I'm not really certain myself then I'm not in much of a position to help provide the strong advocacy needed to win people over.

Also, maybe I'm misinterpreting swimmer but are we actually using the Cogswell exchange as an example of why we should move forward with something despite strong opposition? I'm sure there are examples one could use to make that case, but at this point it's basically a consensus that the Cogs Ex was a big mistake that scarred the downtown cityscape for years and that we're still trying to correct. This would best be used an example for someone making the opposite point (which i don't wish to make).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If someone feels that there are important reasons why something shouldn't happen, why would they or should they focus solely on making it happen? Let's face it. I would never hesitate to support something that i was 100% sold on just because I was afraid of opposition. But if I'm not really certain myself then I'm not in much of a position to help provide the strong advocacy needed to win people over.

This is a very abstract line of reasoning.

What stands out to me is that people in Halifax often have a more negative view of the future or of about what's possible or needed infrastructure or development-wise even if the statistics show that the city is growing as much as or more than other cities where the population tends to be much more positive.

For example here in Vancouver it's generally accepted that there's a lot of growth and major infrastructure development is needed. Vancouver is currently growing slower than Halifax is. Vancouver's transit capital investment is probably 10-20x that of Halifax even thought the metro area is more like 6x the population.

This pattern repeats itself over and over in many areas and the general negative bias is more severe than most parts of North America that I've seen. There really is a lingering defeatist mentality.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If someone feels that there are important reasons why something shouldn't happen, why would they or should they focus solely on making it happen? Let's face it. I would never hesitate to support something that i was 100% sold on just because I was afraid of opposition. But if I'm not really certain myself then I'm not in much of a position to help provide the strong advocacy needed to win people over.

Also, maybe I'm misinterpreting swimmer but are we actually using the Cogswell exchange as an example of why we should move forward with something despite strong opposition? I'm sure there are examples one could use to make that case, but at this point it's basically a consensus that the Cogs Ex was a big mistake that scarred the downtown cityscape for years and that we're still trying to correct. This would best be used an example for someone making the opposite point (which i don't wish to make).

When ever someone brings up why there should be no progress, the Cogswell exchange is what they fear. As someone who has traveled in many cities, I think the exchange shows that the city was a forward thinking city that eventually stopped due to NIMBYism.