How slave labor built and financed major U.S. cities

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by initiald

I think the fact remains that the U.S. has a compounding moral debt that has never been repaid, and there can never be true justice without addressing reparations.

Even beyond that, all wealth has come on the backs of and at the expense of the proletariat. Until late stage capitalism finally finishes its death rattle there will be no true freedom, no true social justice, and no true democracy.

Should every nation who has ever had slavery get reparations? What if my ancestors were slaves in the Ottoman empire but also owned slaves later on in the US, where do we stand? Do we get paid but also have to pay?

This thought process is pretty much like watching Fox or MSNBC vs the BBC or reading an academic article. Its shortsighted and ignores history and the world beyond your Eurocentric view point.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by mademan404

I've been following these forums for nearly 10 years. I'm hardly new here. I just rather not insert myself into any and every conversation. This one, however, is a subject that is very relevant even today (see Libya), so I won't sit idly by and watch people equate African chattel slaves to Russian serfs. They don't belong in the same discussion, as serfs were not traded and sold as human livestock. The serfs were Russians...in Russia...serving Russians. That's a class issue. No kidnapping and force breeding involved.

Your anger should be placed somewhere else I suppose. My Arabic teacher in college had grandparents who had slaves. I believe they ended slavery in the 1960s. This shit has happened everywhere around the world, that's why historical context is important, so generations of Americans don't grow up thinking the US was some unique evil empire. Compare 1850 to 2017, you cannot find a place we would consider civil, on many levels. Viewing the world in todays context, America certainly was evil and bad. Viewing America back then in historical context, we weren't much different from most.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by UPChicago

Sorry assumed due to your post count. A lot of the comments are a product of ignorance and a society espousing color-blindness so I personally am not surprised. As a black man in America, I completely understand where you are coming from. American federalism is the direct result of chattel slavery yet people refuse to see how systemic the issue is in this country.

American Federalism is exactly why and how slaves in the North were freed before the Civil war, because...states rights.

[llamaorama]

So reparations are unreasonable, end of story. They are politically toxic and bad for progressives to even mention.

So... After the people vote to make themselves the owner of something that belongs to someone else, what is the instrument that arbitrates who gets what and how much? Who then is in charge of managing the operations of the means of production? How does that overcome the possibility of tyranny by the majority?

We do it all the time with other public goods, like infrastructure, education, safety, etc. "Tyranny of the majority" is a loaded phrase, sometimes majority rule and seeking consensus is acceptable, that is the fundamental essence of democracy.

Some things are more qualitative and subjective. Not everything is objective and has a purely right or wrong answer, I guess because some beliefs and opinions are really based on preferences which are an individual thing.

IMO it's all based on a lie that people in a free country are not individually in control of their own destiny, and that the only way to remedy that is through the collective control of their destiny by a mob.

But you aren't in absolutely total control over your own destiny all the time.

You are born with a certain IQ, physical appearance, level of health, personality type, etc. You are born to a set of parents who may or may not endow you with opportunities and privileges. Random or uncontrollable events happen in our lives which change us and can harm or better us.

Then you have to compete in a world, in a manner where there will always be winners and losers.

Humans are naturally cooperative, our ancestors formed tribes and did certain things collectively in order to improve their individual circumstances. And since then, civilizations have always had to balance the rights of the individual with the needs of society.

Libertarians like to crow about how left wing ideologies violate "human nature" because they think greed and desire for power is the sole dimension of human nature, not realizing that we also have a good side as well. Libertarianism itself violates human nature because it pits everyone against each other in an artificial struggle for survival and denies people the right to cooperate when it is rational to do so.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by initiald

Generally all white people do benefit because institutionalized racism is alive and well today, and it is a direct decedent of slavery and Jim Crow. Yes, at this point reparations is more of a moral reparations rather than financial one. We can start with universal healthcare, universal higher education, guaranteed housing, etc.

Bring on redistribution of resources and land - neither were morally or justly obtained in this country, a country founded on genocide anyway. Give power to the workers instead of the capitalist class who add no value to workers labor.

If you ever go to Charleston SC, look closely the 3.5 million dollar homes along the waterfront. Those homes were built by slaves, and on some of the bricks you can see their finger prints on some of the bricks that were handled too soon before they had dried and in the mortar of the joints. All around we see these ghosts of slavery. Do you think the people who now own or live in these multi-million dollar homes deserve them? They didn't build those. The land was stolen from the Kiawah, Edisto, and Etiwan people.

And their property values continue to go up. So we have people today, still benefiting from stolen labor and stolen land. Until we accept this compounding moral debt and address it at a societal level we will never have true justice.

The capitalist adds no value to a workers labor? If a worker is a valet at a hotel, he owes everything to the capitalist. Who the hell took the risk to build the hotel? It wasn't the low wage employee. Who will lose millions of the hotel fails? Not the low wage employee.

You seem to be illiterate on economic matters, do you even know anyone who owns a business?

[UPChicago]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

American Federalism is exactly why and how slaves in the North were freed before the Civil war, because...states rights.

And it is exactly why and how blacks were enslaved in the south because you know.....states rights so how exactly is this relevant? In fact the Civil War was fought over.....states rights.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by tablemtn

Oddly enough, I think the US is probably too diverse at this point for "reparations" to ever happen. That kind of "deal" would have been a lot more likely in a country with the demographic composition of the 1950's and 60's, in which the population was basically a very large white majority, a black minority of 12% or so, and then all others fitting into the remaining 5%. In that population structure, the black minority could appeal to guilt and religious moral sentiment by the huge white majority to strike some kind of accord along those lines.

Now? It's not going to happen. Non-Hispanic whites in the US are only 63% or so of the overall population, and are increasingly secular (meaning that abstract appeals to "moral" debts sound like outdated religious gobbledygook that a preacher would make), and are declining as a share of the overall population. Under this population structure, blacks have to strike deals with whites, with the 18% "Hispanic" umbrella-term population, with the 5% East Asian population, etc. It's not going to happen, because those groups don't feel any obligation to support something like that.

Not to beat this to death, but my other issue here is the cut-off definition. How many generations removed would still qualify? And is this a one-off payment or will the US government be sending checks to slave descendants in perpetuity? Like, as an 18th birthday present from Uncle Same as long as you're part of a slave descendant line? Is this a family pay-off scheme or do individuals qualify? Does every kid in the family get a check? If it's a one-off payment, what happens to the kids who are unfortunate enough to be born one day past the cut-off - "tough luck kid, your brother got a $20k check because our family comes from slaves, but you don't get one."

If you're committed to the idea of reparations, you're looking to redress a wrong in the fairest way possible for all those wronged, no? If so, you couldn't in good conscience have a cut-off date.

This worked for Japanese interment camp survivors only because the survivors themselves were the sole qualified group.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

not to mention that many Irish immigrants, who had nothing to do with slavery, were put in a union uniform fresh off the boat in Boston and sent to fight and die in Virginia.

Totally true . . . but also mostly our own (Irish) fault. There was no draft, these kids signed up on their own. But many were convinced to do so by Irish recruiters who were already set up in Boston and who earned commissions for sign-ups. No one undercut the Irish as badly as the Irish undercut themselves, not even the WASP Brahmins lording over Beacon Hill. We've always been our own worst enemies.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by UPChicago

And it is exactly why and how blacks were enslaved in the south because you know.....states rights so how exactly is this relevant? In fact the Civil War was fought over.....states rights.

State rights allowed northern states to outlaw slavery before the civil war. Without strong federalism they might have not been able to outlaw slavery, does that make sense?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by initiald

Generally all white people do benefit because institutionalized racism is alive and well today, and it is a direct decedent of slavery and Jim Crow. Yes, at this point reparations is more of a moral reparations rather than financial one. We can start with universal healthcare, universal higher education, guaranteed housing, etc.

Bring on redistribution of resources and land - neither were morally or justly obtained in this country, a country founded on genocide anyway. Give power to the workers instead of the capitalist class who add no value to workers labor.

If you ever go to Charleston SC, look closely the 3.5 million dollar homes along the waterfront. Those homes were built by slaves, and on some of the bricks you can see their finger prints on some of the bricks that were handled too soon before they had dried and in the mortar of the joints. All around we see these ghosts of slavery. Do you think the people who now own or live in these multi-million dollar homes deserve them? They didn't build those. The land was stolen from the Kiawah, Edisto, and Etiwan people.

And their property values continue to go up. So we have people today, still benefiting from stolen labor and stolen land. Until we accept this compounding moral debt and address it at a societal level we will never have true justice.

Marxism only sounds good in undergraduate sociology classses. Redistribution of wealth isn’t going to work. Nor is it going to solve anyone’s problems. The Russians tried that. Didn’t work out so hot for them. The Chinese have since abandoned Maoism and embraced capitalism because they too saw the writing on the wall.

You think a few mansions is going to make a difference? It’s much deeper than throwing money at this point. As for stolen land, are you willing to hand over your property to the nearest tribe in NC? I’m probably thinking, no. You bought and paid for it through hard work. Plus, NA found a brilliant way to profit off the white man. Casinos. And they are making a crap ton of money.

[10023]

Originally Posted by initiald

Generally all white people do benefit because institutionalized racism is alive and well today, and it is a direct decedent of slavery and Jim Crow. Yes, at this point reparations is more of a moral reparations rather than financial one. We can start with universal healthcare, universal higher education, guaranteed housing, etc.

Bring on redistribution of resources and land - neither were morally or justly obtained in this country, a country founded on genocide anyway. Give power to the workers instead of the capitalist class who add no value to workers labor.

If you ever go to Charleston SC, look closely the 3.5 million dollar homes along the waterfront. Those homes were built by slaves, and on some of the bricks you can see their finger prints on some of the bricks that were handled too soon before they had dried and in the mortar of the joints. All around we see these ghosts of slavery. Do you think the people who now own or live in these multi-million dollar homes deserve them? They didn't build those. The land was stolen from the Kiawah, Edisto, and Etiwan people.

And their property values continue to go up. So we have people today, still benefiting from stolen labor and stolen land. Until we accept this compounding moral debt and address it at a societal level we will never have true justice.

I’m going to stay away from this thread otherwise, because the whole premise is stupid, but the above is a particularly ridiculous farce that belongs in a freshman survey course at middling liberal arts college.

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by initiald

I think the fact remains that the U.S. has a compounding moral debt that has never been repaid, and there can never be true justice without addressing reparations.

I think that "fact" is very much in doubt.

Even beyond that, all wealth has come on the backs of and at the expense of the proletariat. Until late stage capitalism finally finishes its death rattle there will be no true freedom, no true social justice, and no true democracy.

This sounds like something you'd read on reddit.

[kool maudit]

Pro tip for European-descended Americans: before paying reparations, get your own from the Barbary region and the descendants of the Caliphates. They were snatching paleskins from the shores at such a rate that coastal Italy is still a series of walls and fortresses. One-and-a-quarter million Europeans were sold into slavery between the 16th and 18th centuries (versus 388,000 Africans sent to North America... don't let the Brazilians in on this though, they took 4 million).

So get that sorted and then pass on to African-Americans. Done and dusted.

(Don't slide any into your pockets though or it all starts again.)

[initiald]

Originally Posted by JManc

Redistribution of wealth isn’t going to work.

We are undergoing the greatest redistribution of wealth in the history of the US right now, from the working class, who have had stagnant wages and no increase in wealth since the start of the 80s, to the 1% who control over half the wealth in this country.

Yeah, we don't just need to hand out cash, but there's no case to be made as to why we shouldn't have universal healthcare, free college tuition, and guaranteed housing for every American. Let the rich pay for it and let them just be glad we're not lining them up against the wall.

Originally Posted by JManc

As for stolen land, are you willing to hand over your property to the nearest tribe in NC? I’m probably thinking, no. You bought and paid for it through hard work.

Like I said, at this point we can address these issue through creating a strong social safety net for everyone as I mention above. There are 5 empty houses in the US for every one homeless person. There's no reason we shouldn't have a housing first policy. That's one thing we need to change at the state level in NC - right now cities can't require developers to include a percentage of affordable housing in all new developments. That needs to change. It is obscene that a supposed 1st world nation can't guarantee affordable or free housing to all its residents.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Pro tip for European-descended Americans: before paying reparations, get your own from the Barbary region and the descendants of the Caliphates. They were snatching paleskins from the shores at such a rate that coastal Italy is still a series of walls and fortresses. One-and-a-quarter million Europeans were sold into slavery between the 16th and 18th centuries (versus 388,000 Africans sent to North America... don't let the Brazilians in on this though, they took 4 million).

So get that sorted and then pass on to African-Americans. Done and dusted.

(Don't slide any into your pockets though or it all starts again.)

True. The Barbary Slave trade where Christian Europeans were abducted from the shores of Europe as far away as Iceland to be enslaved by Muslim Arabs in North Africa. Fortunately this practice ended after the US and Europe fought a war.

In the first years of the 19th century, the United States of America and some European nations fought and won the First Barbary War and the Second Barbary War against the pirates. The Barbary Wars were a direct response of the British, French and the Dutch states to the raids and white slave trade by the Barbary pirates, which ended in the 1830s when the region was conquered by France. The white slave trade and markets in the Mediterranean declined and eventually disappeared after the European occupations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

Then there is the Arab slave trade from 1500 to 1900. It's estimated that up to 17 million Africans were enslaved by Muslim-Arabs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Not to beat this to death, but my other issue here is the cut-off definition. How many generations removed would still qualify? And is this a one-off payment or will the US government be sending checks to slave descendants in perpetuity? Like, as an 18th birthday present from Uncle Same as long as you're part of a slave descendant line? Is this a family pay-off scheme or do individuals qualify? Does every kid in the family get a check? If it's a one-off payment, what happens to the kids who are unfortunate enough to be born one day past the cut-off - "tough luck kid, your brother got a $20k check because our family comes from slaves, but you don't get one."

If you're committed to the idea of reparations, you're looking to redress a wrong in the fairest way possible for all those wronged, no? If so, you couldn't in good conscience have a cut-off date.

This worked for Japanese interment camp survivors only because the survivors themselves were the sole qualified group.

I would say a good reparations would be paid over centuries in the form of things that were historically denied to Afro-Americans. Things like free college education, interest free mortgages, tax relief etc.

[McBane]

As the child of Jewish immigrants to this country, I would strongly object to my tax dollars being used for reparations for a small number of southern whites who enslaved blacks 200 years ago. I'd say at least half of Americans today came to this country well after slavery ended. If reparations were to be paid, it should have been done at the conclusion of the civil war and paid for solely by white slaveowners (who constituted a very small minority).

Does racism exist today? Sure it does. But people like Barack Obama are living proof that racism can be overcome, it just takes a little more effort. And that may not seem fair but that's the way it is. It's a fact of life the world over that certain people have to work a little harder, be it a minority, a female, a poor person, an immigrant, whatever.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by initiald

Like I said, at this point we can address these issue through creating a strong social safety net for everyone as I mention above. There are 5 empty houses in the US for every one homeless person. There's no reason we shouldn't have a housing first policy. That's one thing we need to change at the state level in NC - right now cities can't require developers to include a percentage of affordable housing in all new developments. That needs to change. It is obscene that a supposed 1st world nation can't guarantee affordable or free housing to all its residents.

These discrepancies, which are capable of being addressed through policy but are not, are only compounded by the hermetically sealed nature of contemporary economic "booms".

Essentially, the post-2008 'recovery' delivered precisely nothing into the hands of the US working class even as it made fortunes at its asset-controlling top – a fact that impacted African-Americans disproportionately.

(Recently in Toronto, I noticed that for every new soaring tower there seemed to be about a dozen new visibly suffering people on the downtown streets. I wonder if there could be a more rigorous way of quantifying this... I think it is real, and the inequality numbers bear this out to a degree.)

[UPChicago]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

State rights allowed northern states to outlaw slavery before the civil war. Without strong federalism they might have not been able to outlaw slavery, does that make sense?

I didn’t dispute what you said, I said it wasn’t relevant to what I was talking about. The same states rights that allowed northern states to be outlaw slavery allowed slavery in the south. This country had to fight a war against itself in order to abolish slavery. If it weren’t for “states rights” slavery likely wouldn’t have survived as long as it did in this country. Not sure if what I’m saying is getting through or not.

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by initiald

Let the rich pay for it and let them just be glad we're not lining them up against the wall.

This must be satire.