More Evidence That the Olympics Won't Fix Your City

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

The Olympics aren't worth it more often than not. We're gonna see more and more Olympics in Western locales, including the US, no matter how much the IOC despairs.

Hasn't every single summer Olympics been in either the west or an advanced economy? Beijing is the only one I can think of in recent memory that wasn't, and I think most of us agree it was a success.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Hasn't every single summer Olympics been in either the west or an advanced economy? Beijing is the only one I can think of in recent memory that wasn't, and I think most of us agree it was a success.

Depends how you define "success".

I define it as resulting in useful public infrastructure at a cost lower than would have been the case if that same infrastructure were just built without the Olympics. Infrastructure that is just left to decay and collapse after the games doesn't count.

Countries like China also consider the value of the "prestige" they think they get from hosting the games, but often that prestige is very fleeting or even of negative value. I'd say the Russians and possibly the Brazilians got negative prestige for their games or, at least, nothing of long term value. So in those cases you are back to whether they could have just built needed public projects for less money than the combined cost of the games and the projects they did build (including ones they are letting fall apart).

My formula is this: Cost of new actually needed infrastructure + profit or loss from games = total cost of games. If the games produce a profit, thus reducing the cost of the new infrastructure (that might have to be built anyway), they are successful. If they lose money, they are not unless one can justify that loss as buying the desired "prestige" that is long lasting.

[Xelebes]

The economics argument is moot. There really isn't an economic argument for the Olympics. The Olympics has always been about showcasing defense. We (the nation) have the fastest men, the longest jumpers, the strongest throwers, the brawniest lifters, etc.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Hasn't every single summer Olympics been in either the west or an advanced economy? Beijing is the only one I can think of in recent memory that wasn't, and I think most of us agree it was a success.

I also meant World Cup. They held one in South Africa and now most of those stadiums sit vacant. The same holds true for many of Brazil's stadiums, including in Manaus, which will likely crumble from lack of use/maintenance. And Brazil is hardly a country that should be hosting these kinds of events.

[skyscraper]

all valid points, except for Xelebes who says there isn't an economic argument to be made for the Olympics.
not to hijack the thread, but I have the same problem with any publicly funded stadium. there is usually the promise of economic windfall brought about by the stadium, but apart from temporary construction jobs, taxpayer funded stadiums are not the economic drivers they are purported to be.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

all valid points, except for Xelebes who says there isn't an economic argument to be made for the Olympics.
not to hijack the thread, but I have the same problem with any publicly funded stadium. there is usually the promise of economic windfall brought about by the stadium, but apart from temporary construction jobs, taxpayer funded stadiums are not the economic drivers they are purported to be.

Arenas are usually an economic boon because they have so many dates but football stadiums (either kind) aren't because they usually have 25 or fewer dates and usually 20 or less for American football stadiums, especially ones not shared by universities and pro teams.

[emathias]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

I think Atlanta's one of the few places where the Olympics ended up being a net positive for the city / region / site.

And Barcelona. I think Barcelona was sort of the text-book example of using the Olympics to remind the world of an amazing city and demonstrate how much it had modernized.

[tdawg]

I lived in Atlanta during the Olympics and while it was awesome and brought great changes to the city, I also think Barcelona saw the biggest net-positive. The whole waterfront was completely reborn and new neighborhoods created that are still growing.

[maru2501]

I do think it's funny that anyone thought the olympics would come to london and suddenly kids living nearby would be less fat

ok... damn. the kids are still too fat!

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Arenas are usually an economic boon because they have so many dates but football stadiums (either kind) aren't because they usually have 25 or fewer dates and usually 20 or less for American football stadiums, especially ones not shared by universities and pro teams.

I don't think that's true; baseball stadiums also have a lot of games (81 regular season games for MLB, plus pre-season, post-season, etc., not to mention the occasional summer concert). The stadium / arena's number of events is not what determines the economic effect, it's the related permanent jobs and other development that happens as a result of the stadium's success. Arenas and stadiums do provide some full time jobs themselves, but mostly it's part time jobs (ticket takers, ushers, vendors) which are only secondary in their economic effect; that is, they are usually people's second incomes or retirement incomes, not primary source of income. Very few stadium developments have delivered on the promise of massive adjacent development. Washington Nationals' park is one exception, and I'm sure there are one or two others, but they are by far the exception and not the rule.

[maru2501]

and the ATL Braves just left their olympic/baseball park

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

The Olympics aren't worth it more often than not. We're gonna see more and more Olympics in Western locales, including the US, no matter how much the IOC despairs.

Even in the "West" the Olympics have had major issues. Just look at the Olympic "ruins" in Athens from 2004:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...on-in-pictures

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

I don't think that's true; baseball stadiums also have a lot of games (81 regular season games for MLB, plus pre-season, post-season, etc., not to mention the occasional summer concert). The stadium / arena's number of events is not what determines the economic effect, it's the related permanent jobs and other development that happens as a result of the stadium's success. Arenas and stadiums do provide some full time jobs themselves, but mostly it's part time jobs (ticket takers, ushers, vendors) which are only secondary in their economic effect; that is, they are usually people's second incomes or retirement incomes, not primary source of income. Very few stadium developments have delivered on the promise of massive adjacent development. Washington Nationals' park is one exception, and I'm sure there are one or two others, but they are by far the exception and not the rule.

The idea is to create new venues in the center of town to attract pedestrians and residents. This only works in denser and more compact cities. If, say, Newark did what Houston has done it'd have better results since Houston is more spread out.

[mhays]

In dense, compact urban cores, it's hard to find land big enough for stadiums and arenas, to say nothing of any related garages etc. So they go to industrial areas, away from the busier activities. That's good, because cramming an arena into one of those core areas might mean a net reduction of activity vs. alternative uses for that property. And it would mess with the street grid.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Even in the "West" the Olympics have had major issues. Just look at the Olympic "ruins" in Athens from 2004:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...on-in-pictures

Greece is not a particularly affluent nation. Every other Western host of the past 34 years has done well during and after the games.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by mhays

In dense, compact urban cores, it's hard to find land big enough for stadiums and arenas, to say nothing of any related garages etc. So they go to industrial areas, away from the busier activities. That's good, because cramming an arena into one of those core areas might mean a net reduction of activity vs. alternative uses for that property. And it would mess with the street grid.

Not necessarily for an arena. They go great where abandoned warehouses are. Baseball stadiums also do well, especially minor league stadiums in places like Indy and Nashville.

[mhays]

And where are abandoned warehouses? In industrial areas. If they were central, they'd be housing or offices already.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mhays

In dense, compact urban cores, it's hard to find land big enough for stadiums and arenas, to say nothing of any related garages etc. So they go to industrial areas, away from the busier activities. That's good, because cramming an arena into one of those core areas might mean a net reduction of activity vs. alternative uses for that property. And it would mess with the street grid.

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Not necessarily for an arena. They go great where abandoned warehouses are. Baseball stadiums also do well, especially minor league stadiums in places like Indy and Nashville

We found some land for a stadium:


https://www.google.com/search?q=ATT+...rznDMQt258XAM:

and for an arena (and not an abandoned warehouse in site):


http://www.sfexaminer.com/mission-ba...arena-project/

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by mhays

And where are abandoned warehouses? In industrial areas. If they were central, they'd be housing or offices already.

Downtown Houston used to have plenty.

[mhays]

SF's stadium and arena are good examples of using former industrial areas outside the core.

ThePhun1, I was referring to dense, compact urban cores. Even based on Google Maps today it seems pretty easy to find 3x2-block spots to put an equivalent of the baseball stadium in the core. But even so, those areas seem likely to develop with other things that use land more efficiently, and some presumably have already started to.