Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Jjs5056]

I actually think it was really poor planning that this line won't be opening until the 2030's. Agreed that potential development is wishful thinking, but there is a serious demand for mass transit along this corridor. A huge percentage of households along the route are car-less and rely on bike/bus currently.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will spur much investment within the Warehouse District. The closest stop is planned for Lincoln, which is on the very southern border and quite far from any existing building stock that could be potentially converted. A stop on either Buchanan or Madison would've been more enticing from a potential investment standpoint, but Lincoln is closer to actual residential neighborhoods in Grant/Central Parks.

The stop really isn't close enough for a link to potential commuter rail, either. I'm no expert on transit planning, but given the proximity of Union Station, it would seem like it would've been best longterm for it to have run west on Lincoln, north on 3rd Ave (where a future stop could be added where it crosses Union Station), and then connect to the Capitol Mall tracks at 3rd Ave and Jefferson? That would at least set the potential up for Union Station to one day serve 3 light rail lines, commuter rail, and passenger rail. A revitalized Union Station would certainly impact the Warehouse District more than just a Lincoln/Central Ave stop will.

By the 2030's, with no plan in sight to ever restore Union Station, I think any chance at the Warehouse District becoming anything more than a cheap place for startup and small businesses to lease/own space will be long gone. We've already seen the start of that trend with the Trombetta Bros and Jackson's on 3rd warehouses being occupied by 9-5 businesses... nothing wrong in theory with that kind of economic development, but it just isn't the kind that will bring nightlife, residential, or entertainment to the area which is, IMO, a shame given its prime location adjacent to the venues and CityScape.

Meanwhile, with all of this planning happening, it seems rather premature that Central Station is being developed. Since it looks like Union Station is being ignored as any kind of potential asset, Central Station is going to the convergence of multiple light rail and bus lines in the future. It seems like that would necessitate something more than just a massive parking garage with bus pull-outs, which is what is being built according to the SmithPartners plan. A more modern-day version of Union Station with retail uses and better plan for integrating the light rail stations (and taking advantage of vertical real estate, as well, instead of only developing 1/4 of the lot with apartments) seems like a better longterm vision. But, what do I know?

[Jjs5056]

I've been reading a lot of articles on this website - http://www.humantransit.org/ - and, while the writer is heavily pro-bus which I'm not always in agreement with, he makes really great points and gives some good insights as a transit planner.

One of the issues that resonated with me was a post where he talked about the importance of identifying a need for transit within a community first, then selecting the mode of transit that best meets that need; rather than trying to force a mode of transit throughout a city. I think this is one of Phoenix's biggest problems - it has been all about the light rail, without a plan that integrates multiple modes of transit where they make the most sense. IMO, the starter line, current extensions, and south Phoenix line are about the only ones that make sense as light rail. Instead, there are places where light rail will function as nothing more than grade-separated streetcar (Tempe) and areas where it will be used in place of commuter rail (freeway medians).

The Capitol Mall extension, for example, could easily be part of a streetcar line that served it, Grand Ave, and the Fairgrounds (while commuter rail would be planned for the corridor planned along I-10 West). BRT could run in the center of the 7's.

Also, more and more I think we were also sold a raw deal by the City with regards to Central Station. Regardless of transit plan, it's going to be the epicenter of multiple rail lines and buses. It would have been great for it to have become an extension of Civic Space as a retail plaza with food trucks and shade structures, with a 2-story annex along Polk with a balcony on the 2nd floor serving as a pedestrian bridge to the other side. It's rare for a bus terminal to be so centrally located, and this could have become one of the few areas in downtown with the built-in number of pedestrians to support a retail plaza; and it would've been nice to have funneled that activity into the park, etc. Instead, we're getting a massive parking garage on 3/4 of the lot, and a suburban apartment tower that has 3 blank sides and a 4th facing a private drive.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I like the idea of a street car for the Capital Mall.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Classical in Phoenix

I like the idea of a street car for the Capital Mall.

It makes much more sense, given that it will need to make numerous stops at frequently-placed stations in order to really serve the area, which degrades the speed - and, therefore, the value - of light rail, but is ideal for streetcar. That same kind of service (numerous stops) makes sense to serve the Grand Ave arts district before heading toward the Fairgrounds area. Then, true commuter service could be provided for the I-10W corridor.

Tempe has a similar problem in that they're blindly promoting streetcar as a major system for its transportation network according to the 2040 plan just released. With light rail already servicing downtown, their focus should be on heavier forms of transit that run N-S; ideally, BRT from Chandler Blvd. to SkySong with an upgraded transit center at Rural/University, along with BRT from Priest/Washington to Priest/Baseline to serve Fountainhead, which they have outlined as a major employment hub yet ignored in terms of major transit planning.

The starter line is, well, a non-starter as it essentially overlaps with the light rail's reach and doesn't provide a faster mode of transportation than simply walking or biking (either to the destination or to the nearest LRT stop). They're heavily promoting the bike-friendliness of the streetcars - why? Why would anyone ride their bike to a streetcar station which will ultimately get them to their destination more slowly than if they had continued on bike? This doesn't even take into account their efficient Orbit system of buses.

The planned extensions along Rio Salado seem short-sighted, as well, as I don't think an entire transit mode should be planned to serve 2-3 big destinations that are hugely auto-centric (nobody is going to go shopping at TMP and lug their bags onto a streetcar) or seasonal (Cubs Stadium). Just run buses from 3rd/Mill to 8th/Dobson at varying frequencies depending on time of day (to hit the office parks and TMP) and season (to hit the Cubs Stadium).

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I've been reading a lot of articles on this website - http://www.humantransit.org/ - and, while the writer is heavily pro-bus which I'm not always in agreement with, he makes really great points and gives some good insights as a transit planner.

One of the issues that resonated with me was a post where he talked about the importance of identifying a need for transit within a community first, then selecting the mode of transit that best meets that need; rather than trying to force a mode of transit throughout a city. I think this is one of Phoenix's biggest problems - it has been all about the light rail, without a plan that integrates multiple modes of transit where they make the most sense. IMO, the starter line, current extensions, and south Phoenix line are about the only ones that make sense as light rail. Instead, there are places where light rail will function as nothing more than grade-separated streetcar (Tempe) and areas where it will be used in place of commuter rail (freeway medians).

The Capitol Mall extension, for example, could easily be part of a streetcar line that served it, Grand Ave, and the Fairgrounds (while commuter rail would be planned for the corridor planned along I-10 West). BRT could run in the center of the 7's.

Also, more and more I think we were also sold a raw deal by the City with regards to Central Station. Regardless of transit plan, it's going to be the epicenter of multiple rail lines and buses. It would have been great for it to have become an extension of Civic Space as a retail plaza with food trucks and shade structures, with a 2-story annex along Polk with a balcony on the 2nd floor serving as a pedestrian bridge to the other side. It's rare for a bus terminal to be so centrally located, and this could have become one of the few areas in downtown with the built-in number of pedestrians to support a retail plaza; and it would've been nice to have funneled that activity into the park, etc. Instead, we're getting a massive parking garage on 3/4 of the lot, and a suburban apartment tower that has 3 blank sides and a 4th facing a private drive.

I think it's important to look at demographics instead of just imagining a mode of transit that would look nice rolling down the street. I agree that we need transit that best meets the need, but it's really also vital to realize where there's demand and where little demand exists to justify the cost. I don't really see the issue with the expanded use of a circulator bus, like DASH, to cover the area around the Capitol. I work closely with ADOT employees who work in the complex around 17th Avenue and Jefferson. I often hear entertaining stories about their adventures on the existing DASH service that serves the Capitol area. Even though the area is heavily populated with state employees, it seems that the overwhelming demographic of DASH users are the homeless who live at a nearby shelter. There is no justification for spending so much money on localized rail around the Capitol area when it really seems like the demand isn't there. The DASH bus, with all its faults, seems to serve the demand for the people who use public transit in that area. I just see any future streetcar being populated with homeless people at the nearby shelter who just want to get out of the heat and ride around all day.

I know that there is a desire to expand transit in Phoenix, but a lot of time and money is spent on planning future transit modes here that make little sense. I take particular issue with the I-10 extension of the light rail, for instance, because it's just too slow. It will serve a demographic of people in west Phoenix who cannot afford a car, but as far as being competitive with POVs, which it needs to be, it's just going to be a severe disappointment. Instead of transit supporters putting a halt to this until there is funding available for faster commuter rail or even a BRT lane on the freeway, people seem to be perfectly content with a train that chugs along at 35 MPH and makes stops at stoplights. That, to me, shows that Phoenix and local transit supporters do not really take context sensitivity seriously. Many just want to see a glossy train chugging down a track.

On another topic, the Central Station proposal is just one of the most baffling proposals I have ever seen. Why the city is taking its 6 year old central transit center, next to a public park, and fully supporting the development of a 30+ story building right in the middle of it is just so confusing. The current transit center is not perfect, primarily the lack of shade for transit users. Plopping an apartment building in the middle of it all, with the requisite huge parking garage, is just so nonsensical. Luckily, we are in an age where next to nothing that is announced in the Downtown area actually comes to fruition. Hopefully the same will ring true with this structure.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Freeway

I think it's important to look at demographics instead of just imagining a mode of transit that would look nice rolling down the street. I agree that we need transit that best meets the need, but it's really also vital to realize where there's demand and where little demand exists to justify the cost. I don't really see the issue with the expanded use of a circulator bus, like DASH, to cover the area around the Capitol. I work closely with ADOT employees who work in the complex around 17th Avenue and Jefferson. I often hear entertaining stories about their adventures on the existing DASH service that serves the Capitol area. Even though the area is heavily populated with state employees, it seems that the overwhelming demographic of DASH users are the homeless who live at a nearby shelter. There is no justification for spending so much money on localized rail around the Capitol area when it really seems like the demand isn't there. The DASH bus, with all its faults, seems to serve the demand for the people who use public transit in that area. I just see any future streetcar being populated with homeless people at the nearby shelter who just want to get out of the heat and ride around all day.

I know that there is a desire to expand transit in Phoenix, but a lot of time and money is spent on planning future transit modes here that make little sense. I take particular issue with the I-10 extension of the light rail, for instance, because it's just too slow. It will serve a demographic of people in west Phoenix who cannot afford a car, but as far as being competitive with POVs, which it needs to be, it's just going to be a severe disappointment. Instead of transit supporters putting a halt to this until there is funding available for faster commuter rail or even a BRT lane on the freeway, people seem to be perfectly content with a train that chugs along at 35 MPH and makes stops at stoplights. That, to me, shows that Phoenix and local transit supporters do not really take context sensitivity seriously. Many just want to see a glossy train chugging down a track.

On another topic, the Central Station proposal is just one of the most baffling proposals I have ever seen. Why the city is taking its 6 year old central transit center, next to a public park, and fully supporting the development of a 30+ story building right in the middle of it is just so confusing. The current transit center is not perfect, primarily the lack of shade for transit users. Plopping an apartment building in the middle of it all, with the requisite huge parking garage, is just so nonsensical. Luckily, we are in an age where next to nothing that is announced in the Downtown area actually comes to fruition. Hopefully the same will ring true with this structure.

I think we are on the same page. Light rail is currently proposed for the Capitol Mall + I-10 extension, and my point is that light rail - as it is defined, not by how it has necessarily been used in Phoenix - doesn't make sense for either option. It's way more of an investment in the Capitol Mall than is needed; as you mention, even extended bus service is a better match for the demand than what is supposed to be a form of heavy transit. Meanwhile, light rail isn't heavy enough for the purpose it is trying to serve by running down I-10. For that, investment in commuter rail is the better longterm solution.

My suggestion for a streetcar to serve the Capitol Mall, rather than bus, is for a few reasons. 1) You mention the homeless 'problem.' Expanded bus or DASH would have the same issue, but in the long-run, streetcar has the potential to spur redevelopment that bus hasn't proven to encourage, thus making it likely that the homeless would eventually make up less and less of the ridership. 2) It is more of a comprise solution that shows investment into an area that does need mass transit service improvements, while not investing money wastefully in a system that doesn't match present or future needs. 3) A streetcar that serves the Capitol Mall can also be used or expanded to serve areas like the Warehouse District, Grand Avenue, Roosevelt Row, the Fairgrounds, McDowell Road, and/or Garfield. In these areas, a streetcar DOES make sense, so why not make small tweaks to include the Capitol Mall within that system? Complement it with DASH, don't replace it. And, at worst, you have a system that is more 'sustainable' for when gas prices for the DASH become a budget-buster, that can encourage redevelopment in a neighborhood that has been neglected (St. Matthews), and that might rejuvenate the Capitol and be used by tourists to travel between it, downtown, and the other hubs that the system would connect.

And, yes, everyone wants to see a shiny 30+ apartment tower go up, but if it does, the City will have lost out on a huge opportunity to make Central Station into something much bigger and better for the public's use. The public, outside of those who will be able to afford the apartments, is getting an extra parking garage on a site that will be the center of multiple light rail lines, multiple bus lines, maybe a streetcar line (it's being studied for the future), and is adjacent to the only successful urban park we have. Terrific.

Meanwhile, this article sums up why I think streetcar is a total waste of money for Tempe. Walking and cycling, either to the final destination or to the nearest light rail stop, will take as much - or less - time as riding the streetcar will in its currently proposed form.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/...alking/384734/

[MegaBass]

Tempe To Build Multi-Use Path Over Abandoned Gas Line

An area in Tempe once used to cover an interstate gas pipeline is being converted into a community transportation pathway.

The half-mile path behind residential homes in central Tempe stretches from Rural Road to Kiwanis Park. The wide alley-like space covers an abandoned El Paso Natural Gas line. The city is spending about $1.3 million in mostly federal funds to convert it into a multi-use transportation path. The paved area will include public art, landscaping and lighting.

Eric Iwersen with Tempe Public Works said the path will connect the park, existing bike lanes and main roads.

“Recognizing that we can’t build our streets any bigger and build our way out of transportation dilemmas with just vehicle travel, we have to provide attractive and convenient alternatives," he said. "And so these pathways are a portion of that transportation system that we’re actively building.”

Iwersen said construction will take about six months to complete, starting in March.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...rail/22791163/

Great news! Metro Light Rail is set to open for Central Mesa extension sometimes in this fall 2015.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by MegaBass

Tempe To Build Multi-Use Path Over Abandoned Gas Line

That's a great use of federal funds. Too bad the path isn't located more toward downtown/the central city.

If the Warehouse District ever had a decent amount of residential/commercial density, I would love to see the same thing happen to the space adjacent to the railroad tracks stretching between the Stadium and Union Station.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-tax/22988689/

Light-rail expansion, a downtown streetcar and improvements to make public transportation more convenient and comfortable are on a more than $30 billion transportation wish list developed by Phoenix leaders — and city taxpayers may soon be asked whether to fund it.

Can they extend the light rail to University of Phoenix Stadium or further north from Paradise Valley Mall to Desert Ridge Marketplace? Will they consider it?

Let the speculation begin.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by N830MH

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-tax/22988689/



Can they extend the light rail to University of Phoenix Stadium or further north from Paradise Valley Mall to Desert Ridge Marketplace? Will they consider it?

Let the speculation begin.

I don't think there's any reason to go beyond PV Mall. I'm skeptical about going to PV Mall at all in the first place. Every other extension probably deserves priority over that one, as the area is low density and not historically transit dependent or transit friendly.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I don't think there's any reason to go beyond PV Mall. I'm skeptical about going to PV Mall at all in the first place. Every other extension probably deserves priority over that one, as the area is low density and not historically transit dependent or transit friendly.

I'm slightly hopeful that since the survey asked which routes were deemed most important, that there is a chance that the current plan and schedule will be reworked.

To be honest, I think only the extensions underway + East Mesa+ South Central are necessary. Let other municipalities determine how/if they want to connect to the main light rail line and implement their own mass transit solutions. There are better uses for the limited funding, such as prioritizing the South Central extension, implementing mass transit solutions for areas in the immediate vicinity of downtown, and upgrading the main line so that it meets basic standards of service. I think it's completely absurd that a quasi-commuter rail line is being created along I-10 before light rail is extending to places where it will serve the purpose it is meant to achieve.

IMO, the priorities should be:
1) Finalize East Mesa and NW extensions
2) Fast-track the South Central extension
3) Customer service upgrades: reloadable metro cards, real-time data, express routes during peak hours
4) Streetcar Phase I: Central Station down Van Buren to Lower Grand at 7th Ave; to the Capitol at 15th Ave/Jefferson; to the Fairgrounds at McDowell/15th Ave; to Roosevelt/7th Ave
5) Planning for true commuter rail service throughout the region
6) True BRT along the 7's from Bethany Home to Washington
7) High capacity transit study and implementation for the Biltmore area (I could see LRT possibly being extended here)
8) True BRT along Thomas and possibly Indian School

Meanwhile, the individual municipalities could work on implementing things like:
1) BRT along Gilbert Road
2) Streetcar through downtown Chandler
3) BRT along the Price Road corridor
4) Streetcar through downtown Glendale

And, while we're at it, Tempe should completely abandon its plan for a streetcar that will be hugely unsuccessful as it doesn't provide a faster or more convenient alternative to walking, biking or taking the light rail/bus to any destination along the route. Instead, they should be prioritizing the Fountainhead Area, South Tempe neighborhoods, and Papago Park region. I think the following would make much more sense:
1) BRT from Chandler Blvd to McDowell Rd
2) LRT from McDowell Rd through Galvin Parkway, down Priest until Southern, and terminating at Southern/Rural with a new transit center at the civic plaza to connect BRT and LRT.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

II think it's completely absurd that a quasi-commuter rail line is being created along I-10 before light rail is extending to places where it will serve the purpose it is meant to achieve.

Agreed, but the west side of Phoenix and the metropolitan area cannot be ignored. I'd amend your plan to include the following:

1) Build BRT in the I-10 median to serve park-and-ride commuters. Switch the LRT alignment to Thomas. In other words, maintain the two corridors but swap the modes.

2) Build an LRT extension on Camelback through Alhambra up to Downtown Glendale serving Grand Canyon University along the way. If Glendale then wants to extend it even farther out to the sports sprawl of Westgate, let them do that on their own dime.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Agreed, but the west side of Phoenix and the metropolitan area cannot be ignored. I'd amend your plan to include the following:

1) Build BRT in the I-10 median to serve park-and-ride commuters. Switch the LRT alignment to Thomas. In other words, maintain the two corridors but swap the modes.

2) Build an LRT extension on Camelback through Alhambra up to Downtown Glendale serving Grand Canyon University along the way. If Glendale then wants to extend it even farther out to the sports sprawl of Westgate, let them do that on their own dime.

I'll admit I've not familiar enough with the west part of town enough to make informed opinions on how transit funding should be spent. But, I would think it was ridiculous if LRT was built along the 202 into South Chandler as much as I think the I-10 corridor is ridiculous. Not only is that NOT the intent of LRT, it just isn't fair that one section of the Valley is essentially getting commuter-level service while areas like Tempe get streetcar-level service.

Curious - where do you see those two recommendations (and I agree that GCU is an important connection; not completely sold on downtown Glendale - is it close to GCU? Otherwise, might a streetcar make more sense?) falling in terms of priority? Before or after the South Central extension, for example? I assume just before?

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

I think they will extend from 24th St to 44th St or Scottsdale Rd. There is mall is on Camelback Rd & Scottsdale Rd. I think they could have extend the light rail to Scottsdale Rd & Camelback Rd.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by N830MH

I think they will extend from 24th St to 44th St or Scottsdale Rd. There is mall is on Camelback Rd & Scottsdale Rd. I think they could have extend the light rail to Scottsdale Rd & Camelback Rd.

If Scottsdale was on board with light rail, a connection via Camelback would be a no-brainer. Unfortunately, they've continually voted against the system. Additionally, there are some tough decisions to make when considering how LRT would travel through the PV section of Camelback.

[plinko]

^Even if Scottsdale EVER got on board with LRT, I think you will see a day with 2 feet of snow in Phoenix before you EVER see a segment down Camelback or Indian School through the Arcadia area. (...amused at the thought of the staff getting off at a stop for the Phoenician...)

Scottsdale's hope for connection to LRT is down through Tempe or even up and across the north valley somewhere on an east west line (Cactus? Bell? 101?)

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by plinko

^Even if Scottsdale EVER got on board with LRT, I think you will see a day with 2 feet of snow in Phoenix before you EVER see a segment down Camelback or Indian School through the Arcadia area. (...amused at the thought of the staff getting off at a stop for the Phoenician...)

Scottsdale's hope for connection to LRT is down through Tempe or even up and across the north valley somewhere on an east west line (Cactus? Bell? 101?)

Yes, I guess I meant a 'no-brainer' in terms of convenience in connecting downtown > Biltmore > Scottsdale. But, as I mentioned, the logistics of dealing with the neighborhoods between would be really difficult... too bad tunneling isn't an option. Though, at this point, part of me almost wishes Scottsdale sinks due to their anti-transit attitude. The other part of me sees how much development is going on in Old Town and thinks it would be a great thing for the metro area if it were connected via LRT.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Curious - where do you see those two recommendations (and I agree that GCU is an important connection; not completely sold on downtown Glendale - is it close to GCU? Otherwise, might a streetcar make more sense?) falling in terms of priority? Before or after the South Central extension, for example? I assume just before?

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

I'd probably set priorities like this:

Tier 1 -- South Central & State Capitol lines & finish current line to MetroCenter
Tier 2 -- Continue State Capitol line (preferably via Thomas rather than I-10) & Alhambra / Downtown Glendale line

As for Downtown Glendale, I think it's five miles beyond GCU via the usual rectilinear street grid. If the line is run diagonally via Grand, one of the ideas being discussed, then the distance will be slightly shorter.

I'd say Downtown Glendale is a worthwhile destination as long as it is jointly funded by that city. It's a walkable area and neighborhoods along the way have significant potential for redevelopment at higher density.

For me, the real issue is where light rail should go if it is extended beyond Downtown Glendale. The prevailing view seems to be Westgate, but that's a fragile destination always a team relocation away from irrelevance. A far more sensible route would head north along 59th Avenue, which is full of stable trip generators such as Glendale Community College, Sahuaro Ranch Park, Banner Hospital, and Midwestern University.

As for a Biltmore spur, I've heard the idea proposed recently of reaching that area via a north-south line along 24th Street rather than an east-west line along Camelback. In many ways, that makes sense. 24th Street has a more transit-dependent population and less potential for NIMBY opposition than Camelback.

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I'd probably set priorities like this:

Tier 1 -- South Central & State Capitol lines & finish current line to MetroCenter
Tier 2 -- Continue State Capitol line (preferably via Thomas rather than I-10) & Alhambra / Downtown Glendale line

As for Downtown Glendale, I think it's five miles beyond GCU via the usual rectilinear street grid. If the line is run diagonally via Grand, one of the ideas being discussed, then the distance will be slightly shorter.

I'd say Downtown Glendale is a worthwhile destination as long as it is jointly funded by that city. It's a walkable area and neighborhoods along the way have significant potential for redevelopment at higher density.

For me, the real issue is where light rail should go if it is extended beyond Downtown Glendale. The prevailing view seems to be Westgate, but that's a fragile destination always a team relocation away from irrelevance. A far more sensible route would head north along 59th Avenue, which is full of stable trip generators such as Glendale Community College, Sahuaro Ranch Park, Banner Hospital, and Midwestern University.

As for a Biltmore spur, I've heard the idea proposed recently of reaching that area via a north-south line along 24th Street rather than an east-west line along Camelback. In many ways, that makes sense. 24th Street has a more transit-dependent population and less potential for NIMBY opposition than Camelback.

To reach the Biltmore it would HAVE to be a shorter distance to spur from Camelback & Central rather than go all that way north on 24th Street from Van Buren . . . . a lot more residential areas to pass through as the area along Camelback from Central to 24th street would NOT be your big NIMBY zone as far as camelback goes. . . that portion has almost zero single family residential and is highly commercialized - a FANTASY would be to go down BOTH 24th & Camelback creating a loop!