Atlantic Canada Regional Transportation Thread

[theshark]

Wonder how long untill they announce it, do they have the rolling stock to do it or are we gonna wait a few years untill they get the trains to do it?

[Steelcowboy]

From what I heard, VIA is going to change a route in Northern Ontario from the RDC's to a conventional train, which would free up those rail liners to be sent here and they also the have a strong bid on a handful of ex VIA RDC's fully refurbished in Texas. They need to run a minimum of 3 cars out here in order to maintain track speed. Other infrastructure is needed around here as well, the completion or extension of the Rogersville passing track and some work in Truro for possible meets with a freight train with dimiension loads. This whole process is flowing like molasses but, something is definitely in the works.

[q12]

https://novascotia.ca/twinning/docs/...esentation.pdf

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...tion-1.3948597

Here's how much drivers might pay for tolls on future twinned highways

Public will get its say on eight highway corridors that could be upgraded with tolls

By Michael Gorman, CBC News Posted: Jan 23, 2017 5:29 PM AT Last Updated: Jan 23, 2017 5:45 PM AT

Transportation Department officials are taking the show on the road beginning Tuesday to gauge public support for using tolls to twin more highways.

Department officials say the 304 kilometres in question would cost about $2.2 billion, with half of the funding coming from tolls to be collected over 30 years and the rest being split between the provincial and federal governments.

The department is expected to have final information to present to the government before the end of the year for decisions on how many, if any, projects to complete.

While the information in the presentations includes a possible toll range for each of the stretches of road, the upper end is what would be required to cover half the total cost.


Corridor 1


Highway 101: Three Mile Plains to Falmouth

$131.6 million
10.8 kilometres
Possible toll range: $0.65 to $1.08


Corridor 2


Highway 101: Hortonville to Coldbrook

$168.5 million
23.7 kilometres
Possible toll range: $1.42 to $2.37


Corridor 3


Highway 103: Exit 5 at Tantallon to Exit 12 at Bridgewater

$448 million
68.1 kilometres
Possible toll range: $4.08 to $6.81


Corridor 4


Highway 104: Sutherlands River to Antigonish

$285.1 million
37.8 kilometres
Possible toll range: $2.27 to $3.78


Corridor 5


Highway 104: Taylors Road to Aulds Cove

$279.2 million
39.5 kilometres
Possible toll range: $2.37 to $3.95


Corridor 6


Highway 104: Port Hastings to Port Hawkesbury

$87.1 million
7 kilometres
Possible toll range: $0.42 to $0.84


Corridor 7


Highway 104: St. Peters to Sydney

$491.3 million
83.9 kilometres
Possible toll range: $5.03 to $21.81

Corridor 8


Highway 107: Porters Lake to Duke Street, Bedford

$331.6 million
33.3 kilometres
Possible toll range: $2.00 to $3.33

[mylesmalley]

It's interesting that the cost per km in every one of the scenarios is $0.10 per km, except for Scenario 7 at $0.2615 per km.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

It's interesting that the cost per km in every one of the scenarios is $0.10 per km, except for Scenario 7 at $0.2615 per km.

Scenario 7 appears to be not just a simple twinning of an existing "super two" highway, but a complete bypass of the existing Highway 4 in Cape Breton. This would explain the tremendously inflated cost.

- I presume that the section of the TCH crossing the Canso Causeway will remain non-divided
- I also presume that when the new divided highway south of the Bras d'Or Lakes gets built that the TCH designation will be removed from the existing Highway 105.

[JHikka]

That potential toll on the 103 is steeeeeeep. That's more than it costs to bypass Montreal Island on the A-30.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That potential toll on the 103 is steeeeeeep. That's more than it costs to bypass Montreal Island on the A-30.

The new route south of the Bras d'Or Lakes (104) is worse, with a proposed toll range of $5 to $22. At the low end of the range, this might be acceptable, but nobody would pay $22 to drive this route, instead opting for the old 105 route, or route 4 instead.

With another $8 of proposed tolls between New Glasgow and the Canso Causeway, this would make a trip from Sydney to Halifax very expensive indeed (between $24 & $60 return when combined with the proposed Bras d'Or bypass toll). I can't imagine Cape Bretoners standing for this - yet another Halifax tax grab intended to keep their island in permanent penury........

A $4-7 toll for the south shore (103) route might be an easier sell, especially if instituted, there really isn't a viable alternative route. The old Highway 3, although well maintained, is narrow, twisty and has a low posted speed limit. A toll here of, say, $5 would not be too different from the Cobequid Pass and probably would be acceptable.

For Cape Bretoners, it's hard to imagine they would countenance any toll greater than $10 ($20 return) for dividing their highway as far as New Glasgow.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Scenario 7 appears to be not just a simple twinning of an existing "super two" highway, but a complete bypass of the existing Highway 4 in Cape Breton. This would explain the tremendously inflated cost.

- I presume that the section of the TCH crossing the Canso Causeway will remain non-divided
- I also presume that when the new divided highway south of the Bras d'Or Lakes gets built that the TCH designation will be removed from the existing Highway 105.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The new route south of the Bras d'Or Lakes (104) is worse, with a proposed toll range of $5 to $22. At the low end of the range, this might be acceptable, but nobody would pay $22 to drive this route, instead opting for the old 105 route, or route 4 instead.

With another $8 of proposed tolls between New Glasgow and the Canso Causeway, this would make a trip from Sydney to Halifax very expensive indeed (between $24 & $60 return when combined with the proposed Bras d'Or bypass toll). I can't imagine Cape Bretoners standing for this - yet another Halifax tax grab intended to keep their island in permanent penury........

A $4-7 toll for the south shore (103) route might be an easier sell, especially if instituted, there really isn't a viable alternative route. The old Highway 3, although well maintained, is narrow, twisty and has a low posted speed limit. A toll here of, say, $5 would not be too different from the Cobequid Pass and probably would be acceptable.

For Cape Bretoners, it's hard to imagine they would countenance any toll greater than $10 ($20 return) for dividing their highway as far as New Glasgow.

It's also worth pointing out that A LOT of traffic on the TCH coming through Cape Breton is destined for the ferry/Newfoundland. The 104 is a nice drive and all, but only gets you from Port Hawkesbury to the 125 outside Sydney, after which you have to hop back over to the 105 to get to the terminal in North Sydney.

That Highway 104 project would twin a highway through Cape Breton but would not get traffic from the ferry, which would continue to use 105 because it's a straight shot from the terminal and free. So half the traffic volume that's on the 105 right now wouldn't migrate to a new highway, which I think would be especially true of the high number of commercial/freight trucks destined for the ferry, and result in the need for a toll fee on the high end in order to cover the cost of the project. That's about 110,000 passenger vehicles and 95,000 commercial vehicles per year which go through Marine Atlantic and then use highway 105 to get through Cape Breton and would likely continue to find 105 more convenient even after 104 is twinned.

[PEI highway guy]

If I remember right the highway 4 is a twisty road for part (maybe most) of the drive, I only traveled the road once. This means 2 new roadbeds will be built away from the existing route. the costs of this construction will likely necessitate the higher toll, 105 is not the worse road I have been on, some people will continue to use it to avoid tolls. the Confederation Bridge is well over $4.00 a km to cross and that goes up every January 1.

[Innsertnamehere]

to be fair the confederation bridge is very different than a rural freeway.

Also, I like these toll roads that eventually shut down when they are done, sort of like the Saint John Throughway.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by PEI highway guy

If I remember right the highway 4 is a twisty road for part (maybe most) of the drive, I only traveled the road once. This means 2 new roadbeds will be built away from the existing route. the costs of this construction will likely necessitate the higher toll, 105 is not the worse road I have been on, some people will continue to use it to avoid tolls.

I'm familiar with both routes, having spent part of my internship in Sydney. Highway 4 is relatively twisty and is not a limited access highway, hence the need for an entirely new roadway.

IMHO, I think the reasons for choosing a new easterly (104) route rather than simply upgrading the existing 105 are:
1) - a new 104 would be more direct
2) - the existing 105 is mountainous in places with steep grades, a major switchback and a large bridge over the Little Bras d'Or.
3) - the 105 is plagued in the wintertime with snow squalls off the gulf. This would be less of a problem with the 104, since it is further from the onshore westerly flow.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also, I like these toll roads that eventually shut down when they are done, sort of like the Saint John Throughway.

Cobequid tolls are still operating despite initial plans to have them phased out. Toll operations were supposed to cease once all liabilities were paid off. This was forecasted to be in 2019 but the current government has extended the tolls until 2026.

The Saint John Harbour Bridge tolls were a failure and were certainly not removed because they had fulfilled their purpose. The Bridge Authority still held $22M worth of debt when it was transferred to the province from the federal government. The common thought was that the revenue generated from the tolls on the bridge were not enough to run the general operations of the tolls themselves, let alone cover the maintenance of the bridge itself or the debt on it. A nearby crossing at Reversing Falls rendered the tolls on Harbour Bridge mostly pointless for the majority of the local population.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I'm sure that corridors 1, 2 & 6 could be done without the use of tolls over the next few years. 5 bucks to get to Antigonish and Bridgewater is pretty close to the toll on the cobiquid pass so those could be feasible.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm familiar with both routes, having spent part of my internship in Sydney. Highway 4 is relatively twisty and is not a limited access highway, hence the need for an entirely new roadway.

The existing NS4 from the end of NS104 at St Peters to near Sydney River has been extensively rebuilt over the past 10 years or so with much straightening, realigning and new bridge structures. Although not controlled access, it's really not a bad drive now with an ADT of about 2000. It lacks passing lanes but most trucks use NS125 and TCH105.

Even the old single lane swing bridge over the St Perters Canal is currently being replaced.

[Dmajackson]

I've read the documents and I think not all of these are necessary.

#1 (Windsor Expressway) is well above the required ADT and given the numerous interchanges and easy bypass a toll would do nothing. This should be constructed under standard procedures.

#2 (Kentville Expressway) is above ADT requirements but it is a longer stretch with some physical constraints. A toll here would have to be distance based.

#3 (Bridgewater Expressway) is necessary. The 103 is very dangerous and busy. Instead of doing full length though I would split it into two phases. Phase A would be Tantallon to the existing twinned section around Chester Basin. Phase B would be upgrading the Chester bypass and extending to Bridgewater. A few years gap between the phases would allow an adjustment towards paying $8 round-trip to Halifax and allow feedback on whether South Shore residents are willing to pay even more.

#4 (New Glasgow - Antigonish gap) and #5 (Antigonish - Canso Causeway) are good ideas but I think tolling would be tough considering the 104 already has a toll on it. If the community is willing to pay though I see no issue considering the high fatality rate along these stretches.

#6 (Port Hawkesbury - Port Hastings) I think this is short enough to do by itself without an associated toll.

#7 is not needed especially considering the ADT. The population of Cape Breton is shrinking so I doubt this will be necessary anytime before 2050, if ever.

#8 is high priority and a great area for tolls. Phase A should be Burnside - Sackville (as promised for the last 30 years) and this is where a point toll should be introduced of at least $2. This would increase to $3 when Phase B (Cherrybrook Bypass) opens. Phase C towards Porters Lake would have its own toll of $2. Vehicles would be exempt from the second toll if both are used within 20 minutes or so of each other.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

It's also worth pointing out that A LOT of traffic on the TCH coming through Cape Breton is destined for the ferry/Newfoundland. The 104 is a nice drive and all, but only gets you from Port Hawkesbury to the 125 outside Sydney, after which you have to hop back over to the 105 to get to the terminal in North Sydney.

That Highway 104 project would twin a highway through Cape Breton but would not get traffic from the ferry, which would continue to use 105 because it's a straight shot from the terminal and free. So half the traffic volume that's on the 105 right now wouldn't migrate to a new highway, which I think would be especially true of the high number of commercial/freight trucks destined for the ferry, and result in the need for a toll fee on the high end in order to cover the cost of the project. That's about 110,000 passenger vehicles and 95,000 commercial vehicles per year which go through Marine Atlantic and then use highway 105 to get through Cape Breton and would likely continue to find 105 more convenient even after 104 is twinned.

I cannot imagine that they are talking about twinning Hwy 4 from St Peters to Sydney - they would have to build a totally new highway parallel to Hwy 4

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I cannot imagine that they are talking about twinning Hwy 4 from St Peters to Sydney - they would have to build a totally new highway parallel to Hwy 4

That's the idea.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I cannot imagine that they are talking about twinning Hwy 4 from St Peters to Sydney - they would have to build a totally new highway parallel to Hwy 4

Even so, the proposed highway is still out of the way. It would be more convenient for travel from Sydney to the causeway, I don't doubt that at all, but what I'm saying is that a significant amount of traffic on 105 through Cape Breton comes from the ferry. The province can build whatever they want on the east side of the lake but that traffic is not going to migrate to a new highway when the ferry spits you out onto the 105, especially if the new highway is tolled. A whole new highway 4 might only get half the daily traffic that passes through Cape Breton.

For that reason, I don't think the traffic volume would be there to justify building a whole new highway, twinning, or whatever along the highway 4 route. The better bet would be to enhance 105 by adding passing lanes in a couple of key spots and straightening out a couple of sharper curves.

[Taeolas]

Looking at Google Maps, the current difference between the two routes (Going from Canso Irving to the Ferry Terminal) is about 8km. 145km by the TCH vs 153km via 104/route 4.

Assuming they do this intelligently and make sure the twinned 104 gets as close to the Terminal as possible (so twinning/upgrading the 125, or cutting through "as the crow flies" from East Bay to Balls Creek), the actual difference may be irrelevant. Especially if the new routing can straighten out a bit and otherwise cut the distance difference a bit further.

Factor in NOT having to climb up and down Kelly Mountain along the way, and just being able to go a constant 120 on a controlled access divided road instead of a more variable 100kmish on a non-control access bidirectional highway; I could easily see a new Twinned 104 picking up the terminal traffic, and most traffic from Sydney to the rest of Canada easily.

Now, whether building such a highway (even with Tolls) would be worth it is another matter entirely, especially with Cape Breton demographics. Still, it's probably worthwhile to have the plans on record, and maybe start securing the right of ways, in case it is feasible in 10-20 years from now, unlikely though that might be.

*Edit* Looking at the diagrams above, I see the proposed 104 corridor is basically a side-build or twin of the existing route; so it would end at Sydney River; but the 125 at that point is mostly twinned to the terminal. I suspect were it built, traffic would still shift to the southern route instead of the old TCH route.

[LiamCarroll]

I am so goddamn confused about what is going to happen with the
MV Confederation and Holiday island, news articles calling the 25-year old Confederation "Ancient"
What a waste