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  #3541  
Old Posted Today, 12:32 AM
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MonctonRad MonctonRad is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I wonder what black hole is in wokelish
How about "non light emitting ultimately dense singularity"

It doesn't flow as nicely off the tongue though.........

Actually I like the idea of wokelish as a new dialect of English - a very self aware and referential dialect, but a dialect nonetheless.
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  #3542  
Old Posted Today, 12:44 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
How about "non light emitting ultimately dense singularity"

It doesn't flow as nicely off the tongue though.........

Actually I like the idea of wokelish as a new dialect of English - a very self aware and referential dialect, but a dialect nonetheless.
You again? If you don't change your extraordinarily offensive username (as I indirectly requested earlier) I'm going to have to put you on my black list
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  #3543  
Old Posted Today, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You again? If you don't change your extraordinarily offensive username (as I indirectly requested earlier) I'm going to have to put you on my black list
Surely not a "black" list.
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  #3544  
Old Posted Today, 12:53 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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What about the terms "in the red" vs "in the black"? Isn't that a racist term highlighting society's view that blacks are superior to aboriginal populations?
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  #3545  
Old Posted Today, 1:00 AM
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There is a lot more backslapping and highfiving in this thread lately than there is serious discussion about the serious issues regarding racism in Canada. Obviously every thread here meanders here and there but it does seem a bit sad that this thread has been so derailed.
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  #3546  
Old Posted Today, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I don't think it is so coordinated that there is a group of corporations with a long-term social justice strategy in place to boost profits. I do think that they've gotten on board because the cost to them is low and there's an immediate marketing benefit and level of "protection" (say the right stuff to avoid getting cancelled, or, in the US, maybe even pillaged in a riot). .
To me, it kinda feels like a sub-branch of the wider operation!
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  #3547  
Old Posted Today, 1:29 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
... sad that this thread has been so derailed.
Well that's a very insensitive thing to say, a train derailment is very serious stuff and people sometimes lose their lives when it happens. Using the term like that is also offensive to railway engineers. Don't do it again!




On another note, did we not just discuss the case of infamous Barrhaven Karen for many pages? What more do you want?
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  #3548  
Old Posted Today, 1:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
There is a lot more backslapping and highfiving in this thread lately than there is serious discussion about the serious issues regarding racism in Canada. Obviously every thread here meanders here and there but it does seem a bit sad that this thread has been so derailed.
Like several others on here I am admittedly snarky and sarcastic but I am getting called racist left and right for no good reason, so...

At least I am putting ideas forward and debating.

"You just don't understand and you never will!" is not an effective counter-argument. It's also particularly odious when it's followed by "...because you're a white male".

As I keep saying, this discussion is going south because lots of people actually don't want a discussion on this one. They would have wanted a choir singing in harmony.

Too many posters on here have too many absolute truths for a good discussion to be possible.

It's like arguing with an anti-abortionist fundamentalist Christian that a foetus isn't a baby.
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  #3549  
Old Posted Today, 1:47 AM
dreambrother808 dreambrother808 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
There is a lot more backslapping and highfiving in this thread lately than there is serious discussion about the serious issues regarding racism in Canada. Obviously every thread here meanders here and there but it does seem a bit sad that this thread has been so derailed.
Well for people who think this is all a joke, they spend an awful lot of time posting in this thread. If you adroitly deflect the external reality, a new internal one never has to form. You are temporarily “safe” from any uncomfortable feelings. Intentionally focusing on distractions and mistakes they fail to see value in the main thrust of the zeitgeist.

The communities actually experiencing racism seem pretty emboldened though. They aren’t going to give up and the pressure will mount.
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  #3550  
Old Posted Today, 2:16 AM
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Does anyone else suspect that many of the excuses and pledges to "work on themselves" from people who've been "caught being racist" lately probably are not very sincere?

I just get the sense that a lot of people are running scared and just say what needs to be said to take the heat off.
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  #3551  
Old Posted Today, 2:20 AM
savevp savevp is offline
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post

The communities actually experiencing racism seem pretty emboldened though. They aren’t going to give up and the pressure will mount.

Can I ask what the end goal is though? I'd presume you consider yourself an ally of the aforementioned communities so maybe you can shed some light on what exactly these communities wish to achieve. I suspect much of the opposition in this thread and beyond comes from goals that are either diffuse and ill-defined (end systemic racism), or else specific and extremist (abolish police, end capitalism). The former are broadly palatable but many/most aren't sure what actual steps are required to achieve them. As for the latter, which I've skimmed from various BLM manifestos, they represent mission creep to anti-western ideologies rather than viable solutions to racism.

Perhaps you or others could help lay out some proper goals for the movement, if indeed they exist, and common ground might be found.
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  #3552  
Old Posted Today, 2:22 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It will never be possible to change the fact that "light" and "darkness" are, in this universe, respectively fundamentally positive and negative. Light allows one to see, darkness may hide threats.

It would be much more realistic to do it the other way around and simply abolish the use of the term "black" to refer to people of Subsaharan African ethnicity. Problem solved!

(They're brown anyway, not black.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Does anyone else suspect that many of the excuses and pledges to "work on themselves" from people who've been "caught being racist" lately probably are not very sincere?

I just get the sense that a lot of people are running scared and just say what needs to be said to take the heat off.
If they stay clean afterward, does it matter?
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  #3553  
Old Posted Today, 2:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
There is a lot more backslapping and highfiving in this thread lately than there is serious discussion about the serious issues regarding racism in Canada. Obviously every thread here meanders here and there but it does seem a bit sad that this thread has been so derailed.
Isn’t it funny how a thread meant to highlight systemic racism in our country to smug Canadians has now essentially become an echo chamber of rightwing white guys denying the existence of racism and mocking political correctness. Isn’t that weird? Almost like the exact same behaviour that this thread is meant to point out.
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  #3554  
Old Posted Today, 2:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Like several others on here I am admittedly snarky and sarcastic but I am getting called racist left and right for no good reason, so...

At least I am putting ideas forward and debating.

"You just don't understand and you never will!" is not an effective counter-argument. It's also particularly odious when it's followed by "...because you're a white male".

As I keep saying, this discussion is going south because lots of people actually don't want a discussion on this one. They would have wanted a choir singing in harmony.

Too many posters on here have too many absolute truths for a good discussion to be possible.

It's like arguing with an anti-abortionist fundamentalist Christian that a foetus isn't a baby.
Maybe people wouldn’t call you racist if you didn’t defend racism in action. I’m not sure who actually called you racist here either. Maybe I missed something?
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Last edited by O-tacular; Today at 3:36 AM.
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  #3555  
Old Posted Today, 2:50 AM
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Originally Posted by savevp View Post
Can I ask what the end goal is though? I'd presume you consider yourself an ally of the aforementioned communities so maybe you can shed some light on what exactly these communities wish to achieve. I suspect much of the opposition in this thread and beyond comes from goals that are either diffuse and ill-defined (end systemic racism), or else specific and extremist (abolish police, end capitalism). The former are broadly palatable but many/most aren't sure what actual steps are required to achieve them. As for the latter, which I've skimmed from various BLM manifestos, they represent mission creep to anti-western ideologies rather than viable solutions to racism.

Perhaps you or others could help lay out some proper goals for the movement, if indeed they exist, and common ground might be found.
It’s really quite simple actually. End the indiscriminate murder of black and indigenous people by police. Defund the police doesn’t mean abolish them. It means take the insanely bloated budget that is spent on policing and redistribute it to more effective things such as mental health professionals who are trained to deal with the mentally ill and can de-escalate situations rather than shooting someone with autism who is going door to door looking for help and happens to be black. Use accountability measures such as officers being required to carry insurance. Root out corruption in the force and actually hold officers who have broken the law accountable. Blanket immunity is a recipe for abuse. I’m not sure what is so radical about that or saying that Black Lives Matter as much as white ones do.
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  #3556  
Old Posted Today, 3:42 AM
savevp savevp is offline
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^ Thanks for the response.

I don't think it's the basic premise of reallocating funding from police to mental health services that is so divisive though. I would suggest umbrage is more being taken with cancel culture, and earlier in this discussion with statue removal. Despite its provocative name, the defund the police idea is anodyne, but forumers and some of the public are a great deal more concerned about the implications of rapidly changing norms in linguistic and ideological censorship. I'd argue the coupling of that phenomenon with less controversial policing reforms has inflamed the debate and alienated those who'd otherwise be inclined to support moderate reforms.

If this were a structured debate and I was moderator, I'd say let's first figure out if there is a coherent voice representing the mainstream of this movement. Perhaps that's BLM. I'd then want to debate the validity of BLM's manifestos. Then maybe I'd move into the merits of removing statues and then maybe into the merits of 'banning' (effectively) certain terms. And I'm not talking the obvious ones but the racist-adjuncts like Sauvage, master, etc. Let's find the point of common ground rather than retrenching behind immutable beliefs and pie in the sky hypotheticals. It's obvious that some will never stop espousing the genuinely held belief that white people are inherently racist, for example, and others will never cease to be repulsed by that idea. Better to debate more concrete ideas like whether Trudeau should have taken a knee in protest.

Really, the defund the police debate doesn't need to be racial, at least not in Canada. It seems to me it's invariably a mental health problem more than a race one, at least lately.

Last edited by savevp; Today at 3:58 AM.
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  #3557  
Old Posted Today, 4:18 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
It’s really quite simple actually. End the indiscriminate murder of black and indigenous people by police. Defund the police doesn’t mean abolish them. It means take the insanely bloated budget that is spent on policing and redistribute it to more effective things such as mental health professionals who are trained to deal with the mentally ill and can de-escalate situations rather than shooting someone with autism who is going door to door looking for help and happens to be black. Use accountability measures such as officers being required to carry insurance. Root out corruption in the force and actually hold officers who have broken the law accountable. Blanket immunity is a recipe for abuse. I’m not sure what is so radical about that or saying that Black Lives Matter as much as white ones do.
See, the problem I have with your view is how racist you're being. I support putting resources in mental health and, unlike you, making sure cops are trained to deal with the mentally ill so that when they're finding themselves in situations such as facing a mentally ill homeless Montrealer wielding a hammer, can de-escalate instead of shooting the guy dead like they did.

This obsession with bringing race into the picture when we should be talking about how to treat mental health is just plain racist and would lead to a more segregated, more race-conscious, more divided society, which is the opposite of the Canada I'd personally like to see.

To reuse an example from earlier, if you wanted to discuss the idea of an UBI for Canadians, it would be an interesting discussion; if you were instead pushing to introduce an UBI-For-Blacks, an idea that's frankly only one step below the idea of introducing separate drinking fountains for blacks, I'd oppose it as a really bad and racist idea that would send us back to the early 20th century and before.
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  #3558  
Old Posted Today, 5:06 AM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Isn’t it funny how a thread meant to highlight systemic racism in our country to smug Canadians has now essentially become an echo chamber of rightwing white guys denying the existence of racism and mocking political correctness. Isn’t that weird? Almost like the exact same behaviour that this thread is meant to point out.
Is this satire? Who are the "rightwing white guys" you're referring to? And are you seriously bemoaning the mocking of political correctness?

Who are you, the Church Lady?

Nobody's denying the existence of racism. What many on this thread are arguing against is the SJW claim of the original sin of being a white descendant of Europe. Some of us are also contending that racism isn't strictly a systemic or structural problem anymore (heard of any racist laws lately?), that things have actually improved over time (see Steven Pinker's numbers for the U.S. on this), and that the status quo is actually working quite well for African-Americans, for whom the less than salutary indicators continue to improve dramatically. There is no shortage of black intellectuals and academics who share these views.

American black people are not more likely to be shot by cops than American white people when arrested. The contention that black people are being killed indiscriminately by police in the U.S. is a lie.

Quote:
Police Killings of Blacks: Here Is What the Data Say

...what the data does suggest is that eliminating the biases of all police officers would do little to materially reduce the total number of African-American killings.

Arrest data lets us measure this possibility. For the entire country, 28.9 percent of arrestees were African-American. This number is not very different from the 31.8 percent of police-shooting victims who were African-Americans. If police discrimination were a big factor in the actual killings, we would have expected a larger gap between the arrest rate and the police-killing rate.

This in turn suggests that removing police racial bias will have little effect on the killing rate. Suppose each arrest creates an equal risk of shooting for both African-Americans and whites. In that case, with the current arrest rate, 28.9 percent of all those killed by police officers would still be African-American. This is only slightly smaller than the 31.8 percent of killings we actually see, and it is much greater than the 13.2 percent level of African-Americans in the overall population.

If the major problem is then that African-Americans have so many more encounters with police, we must ask why. Of course, with this as well, police prejudice may be playing a role. After all, police officers decide whom to stop or arrest.

But this is too large a problem to pin on individual officers.

First, the police are at least in part guided by suspect descriptions. And the descriptions provided by victims already show a large racial gap: Nearly 30 percent of reported offenders were black. So if the police simply stopped suspects at a rate matching these descriptions, African-Americans would be encountering police at a rate close to both the arrest and the killing rates.

Second, the choice of where to police is mostly not up to individual officers. And police officers tend to be most active in poor neighborhoods, and African-Americans disproportionately live in poverty.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/u...?smid=tw-share
Not surprisingly due to the fact that the U.S. is the most demographic statistics-heavy society the world, there doesn't seem to be per arrest data for Canada. What we are left with instead is the metric of the proportion per minority group of police killings, and no information on what the risk of being killed by the police is if you come into contact with them.

The critical finding of the U.S. data is that more instances of contact with the police increase your chances of being shot by the police. Blacks being killed by police is not a police problem per se, then, but rather a product of the increased likelihood of coming into contact with the police due to the far higher rates of crime and murder among African-Americans.

Those are different problems.
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