ASU/UofA Downtown Phoenix construction thread

[Phxguy]

Will the Biomed building also be built between TGen or are we being jipped with a parking garage that serves no purpose?

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

The horrific 8-story soul-sucking Biomedical parking structure is finally here. Construction is set to begin Q2. This is a monster of a garage: 8 stories and taking up the entire block bounded by 5th, 6th, Fillmore and Taylor.

I've asked Boyer for a rendering or plan to no avail; I sent another followup pleading that they wrap this thing in retail since we are way past moving it to 7th.

As of now, it will be built "so Future retail development is possible," which is not good enough for me, nor should it be for the city. Both the biomedical and ASU campuses need to step it up.

http://azbex.com/phoenix-biomedical-...arking-garage/

Tell me this. ... Would you lease out the retail space you propose? Would you literally risk your hard earned money and open up shop in a retail space on a garage within the biomed area as it currently (and near future) exists? No way in he'll would anything like that be successful right now. I think giving the option for future retail is just fine.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Tell me this. ... Would you lease out the retail space you propose? Would you literally risk your hard earned money and open up shop in a retail space on a garage within the biomed area as it currently (and near future) exists? No way in he'll would anything like that be successful right now. I think giving the option for future retail is just fine.

Completely agree. The Bio Med Campus is exactly that, a campus. It is an entity on itself. This idolized idea of it becoming an integrated component of downtown is naive. That is not to say that it is a terrible component. The Bio Med campus is a huge win because it brings great high paying job sources to the core of downtown, and increases the demand for housing around the area. It is around this housing where retail can thrive.

Take a look at even the most successful urban environments, not all of the buildings have this idolized retail/mix-use aspect to them. The key is to get all of the varied components that make a successful city accessible and close enough that people can get around them without having to depend on a car to get to them.

Also, I much rather see a parking garage than a parking lot (which we currently have). Fight it all you want, but there will always be a lot of people here in Phoenix that will depend on their car to get to downtown. Even the densest cities have parking structures. Getting rid of all parking in downtown would be a huge disaster, and would probably kill all the great momentum that has been gaining. Seeing what could be 2 whole blocks of parking compressed into an 8 story structure is a good thing.

[Jjs5056]

I understand your points completely that the retail may not get filled and that ground floor retail isn't akwaysnhe answer, but can't agree with you that a garage taking over this entire lot is the best use of the land and is best for revitalizing the neighborhood. If this were east of 7th, I might not care.

But, the area just south of Roosevelt is doing extremely well. It's walkable, and has a real urban neighborhood feel to it. However, just like every other pocket in Phoenix, it abruptly ends and you're faced with blank walls and empty lots. The Biomedical Campus HAS done a shitty job of integrating itself into downtown, and no, that wasn't an impossible ask. Those workers need to eat, drink and live the same way other workers do. Sure, residential over the cancer center wouldn't be ideal, but outfitted one of these smaller lab spaces that are close to Skyline Lofts and Roosevelt Point with a few restaurants or a pharmacy, etc. would have been better than cutting itself off completely.

As for the garage, there are so many better alternatives than placing retail around it. But, that's where we are at given that it's being built. I won't believe that retail will be built in the future, so it's now or forever have yet another monster garage in the heart of one of our few thriving neighborhoods. These Bio buildings are already way too short; there's no reason the garage couldn't be placed underneath one of them if needed.

Evans Churchill/Roosevelt still has a shot. And, if this were at least a regular building with street-front entrances and windows, shade, etc. retail might not be needed. But, there's nothing positive about a blank garage in our core, I don't care where it is.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

Take a look at even the most successful urban environments, not all of the buildings have this idolized retail/mix-use aspect to them. The key is to get all of the varied components that make a successful city accessible and close enough that people can get around them without having to depend on a car to get to them.

The most successful environments contain buildings that design their ground floors to a human scale. Whether that's don't through plazas, large windows, retail, etc. doesn't matter. But, they certainly don't have multiple monster garages (and there's already the Arizona Center one across the street) every other block.

And, saying that it's okay because it's a campus is BS; eventually, the campus meets our city, and this is where that starts. If this area isn't meant to be a successful urban neighborhood building off the Skyline Lofts, Roosevelt Point, Arizona Center, Roosevelt Row, etc. then I'm not sure where you envision us actually having a functioning downtown.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Tell me this. ... Would you lease out the retail space you propose? Would you literally risk your hard earned money and open up shop in a retail space on a garage within the biomed area as it currently (and near future) exists? No way in he'll would anything like that be successful right now. I think giving the option for future retail is just fine.

My answer is yes: I would open a Walgreens in a heartbeat, given the population base nearby at RoPo, Skyline, and in the Roosevelt, Evans Churchill and Garfield neighborhoods, in addition to the medical campus and cancer treatment center (medicine, hygiene products, quick snacks, balloons/cards/gifts).

A Dunkin Donuts would do great, as well, for a quick breakfast for employees, as would a Chloe's Corner kind of lunch place for the campus (patients and their families who want a place to get away) + residents, too.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

Completely agree. The Bio Med Campus is exactly that, a campus. It is an entity on itself. This idolized idea of it becoming an integrated component of downtown is naive. That is not to say that it is a terrible component. The Bio Med campus is a huge win because it brings great high paying job sources to the core of downtown, and increases the demand for housing around the area. It is around this housing where retail can thrive.

Take a look at even the most successful urban environments, not all of the buildings have this idolized retail/mix-use aspect to them. The key is to get all of the varied components that make a successful city accessible and close enough that people can get around them without having to depend on a car to get to them.

Also, I much rather see a parking garage than a parking lot (which we currently have). Fight it all you want, but there will always be a lot of people here in Phoenix that will depend on their car to get to downtown. Even the densest cities have parking structures. Getting rid of all parking in downtown would be a huge disaster, and would probably kill all the great momentum that has been gaining. Seeing what could be 2 whole blocks of parking compressed into an 8 story structure is a good thing.

I completely agree with your assertion that everything does not have to have a mixed use (ground floor retail) component to it. There are ground floor retail spaces several blocks away from this future garage that have sat empty since they were constructed (Skyline Lofts is one development in particular). Aside from the fact that I have never seen a mixed use parking garage before, I can't imagine that anyone is pining for retail space downtown so severely that they would be willing to open up shop in such a space either.

However, I don't see how a parking garage is better than a parking lot. They're both dead zones that people use to leave their cars for several hours. Are you arguing that constructing this parking garage is a good thing because it adds height that is currently not there? This does nothing to increase the urbanity of downtown and does not supplement the presence of an actual building at all. To me, this parking garage is neither a win nor a loss because it will function in the future as it functions now, just with greater intensity. Lastly, there are some cities that do not have multistory garages that take up entire blocks. I can't think of a block in Manhattan that is occupied solely by a garage. I'm struggling to think of areas of Chicago, Philadelphia, or DC either.

Only in a car oriented city would people believe that providing so much parking is necessary to a core's vitality. I wish we would build a downtown that is oriented to residents of downtown itself and adjacent neighborhoods instead of a downtown oriented for people visiting from Chandler or Surprise. As more and more people move closer to the core, shops and attractions could open up that would draw people from the suburbs who would find their own parking without endless garages and free surface lots for their leisure. It is not supposed to be easy to find parking in a major city. What we need to stop doing is building lots and garages we need to make parallel parking an option on most every downtown street again.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

I completely agree with your assertion that everything does not have to have a mixed use (ground floor retail) component to it. There are ground floor retail spaces several blocks away from this future garage that have sat empty since they were constructed (Skyline Lofts is one development in particular). Aside from the fact that I have never seen a mixed use parking garage before, I can't imagine that anyone is pining for retail space downtown so severely that they would be willing to open up shop in such a space either.

However, I don't see how a parking garage is better than a parking lot. They're both dead zones that people use to leave their cars for several hours. Are you arguing that constructing this parking garage is a good thing because it adds height that is currently not there? This does nothing to increase the urbanity of downtown and does not supplement the presence of an actual building at all. To me, this parking garage is neither a win nor a loss because it will function in the future as it functions now, just with greater intensity. Lastly, there are some cities that do not have multistory garages that take up entire blocks. I can't think of a block in Manhattan that is occupied solely by a garage. I'm struggling to think of areas of Chicago, Philadelphia, or DC either.

Only in a car oriented city would people believe that providing so much parking is necessary to a core's vitality. I wish we would build a downtown that is oriented to residents of downtown itself and adjacent neighborhoods instead of a downtown oriented for people visiting from Chandler or Surprise. As more and more people move closer to the core, shops and attractions could open up that would draw people from the suburbs who would find their own parking without endless garages and free surface lots for their leisure. It is not supposed to be easy to find parking in a major city. What we need to stop doing is building lots and garages we need to make parallel parking an option on most every downtown street again.

The reason I prefer the garage to lots is because whether we want to or not, most people who work there are going to drive here. Does it suck, yes. I am as big of an urbanist as most in this site, but we also have to look at the realities of Phoenix. Yes it would be awesome if every single person who worked there would either take the light rail or live next door, but that is never going to happen. We can expand the light rail until the point where every street is covered, and there would still be people that drive there. So therefore we are left with two options, either the campus continues to use parking lots (8 stories worth of parking is a much larger gash in the urban core) or that can be compressed into a structure.

And no, there might not be an entire city block of parking in New York City, but next time you are there, I challenge you to notice how much parking there really is. You will be amazed. It is not that mush different from our downtown. It might be hidden a bit better, but it is there.

[MegaBass]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

However, I don't see how a parking garage is better than a parking lot. They're both dead zones that people use to leave their cars for several hours. Are you arguing that constructing this parking garage is a good thing because it adds height that is currently not there? This does nothing to increase the urbanity of downtown and does not supplement the presence of an actual building at all. To me, this parking garage is neither a win nor a loss because it will function in the future as it functions now, just with greater intensity. Lastly, there are some cities that do not have multistory garages that take up entire blocks. I can't think of a block in Manhattan that is occupied solely by a garage. I'm struggling to think of areas of Chicago, Philadelphia, or DC either.

Philadelphia

Chicago's Greenway Self-Park

[PHX31]

An 8 story garage can fit as much parking as 8 separate surface lots. So the garage is theoretically saving our built environment 7 additional surface parking lots.

[bwaynoh]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

Aside from the fact that I have never seen a mixed use parking garage before

There are actually several parking garages in downtown Phoenix that I can think of that have retail including the SE corner of 1st Ave & Van Buren and the Hyatt garage on Adams between 1st & 2nd St where the Matador was located.

Also, I attended a meeting last summer at which the city was working with neighborhood groups ahead of the cancer center groundbreaking and they did mention that they were looking to incorporate a retail or office component into the parking garage.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by bwaynoh

There are actually several parking garages in downtown Phoenix that I can think of that have retail including the SE corner of 1st Ave & Van Buren and the Hyatt garage on Adams between 1st & 2nd St where the Matador was located.

Also, I attended a meeting last summer at which the city was working with neighborhood groups ahead of the cancer center groundbreaking and they did mention that they were looking to incorporate a retail or office component into the parking garage.

That's good to hear. Even if it's not completely wrapped, it would be great to have the opportunity to fill it in as the other lots are developed. I wish the south side of the Garage Mahal had at least some retail. I have to think it would fill up with sports bars.

I know there is a lot of resistance to retail based on the vacancies in a lot of the newer mixed use projects, but of course retail won't be successful when it is facing acres of empty land. That doesn't mean we should fill that empty land with concrete; if the lots fill up with their own pieces of commercial space, the potential for synergy to occur improves greatly. We also need to plan for the future. With the build out of both the Bio and ASU campuses, there is going to be much more intensive residential projects built in the vicinity.

Arquitect - how costly is it to incorporate retail onto the ground level of a garage (you can be qualitative as in "very" or "not at all")? And, if it sits empty, are there associated maintenance costs? Lastly, in the event that retail is just completely not viable, what other techniques are there to make the street of garages perspective less obstructive? I totally agree that a garage is preferable to surface lots, but we literally have dozens and they're monstrous and do impact downtown. Maybe screens of local artists' work? The faces of our garages could be literal art galleries? Doubt that would be cheaper than retail, though, huh?

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

That's good to hear. Even if it's not completely wrapped, it would be great to have the opportunity to fill it in as the other lots are developed. I wish the south side of the Garage Mahal had at least some retail. I have to think it would fill up with sports bars.

I know there is a lot of resistance to retail based on the vacancies in a lot of the newer mixed use projects, but of course retail won't be successful when it is facing acres of empty land. That doesn't mean we should fill that empty land with concrete; if the lots fill up with their own pieces of commercial space, the potential for synergy to occur improves greatly. We also need to plan for the future. With the build out of both the Bio and ASU campuses, there is going to be much more intensive residential projects built in the vicinity.

Arquitect - how costly is it to incorporate retail onto the ground level of a garage (you can be qualitative as in "very" or "not at all")? And, if it sits empty, are there associated maintenance costs? Lastly, in the event that retail is just completely not viable, what other techniques are there to make the street of garages perspective less obstructive? I totally agree that a garage is preferable to surface lots, but we literally have dozens and they're monstrous and do impact downtown. Maybe screens of local artists' work? The faces of our garages could be literal art galleries? Doubt that would be cheaper than retail, though, huh?

Compared to a parking garage, retail is actually a lot more expensive, since you have to worry about providing separate electric meters, providing water, among other thing. And having it sit empty does hurt the owner, since it increases the property tax of the space and also loses them potential spots they could charge for. A interesting screen or art wall would be a lot cheaper and could do a lot more for the space than empty store front.

Also, there are areas like these in other cities, even in dense urban centers, where there is predominantly one use. For instance. Midtown Manhattan along Park Ave has very little retail, and it is mostly office towers that are just as separate from the urban fabric as the city as the Bio Campus. Yet, they are one of the main engines for NYC and the people who work there go eat in surrounding areas. We might be underestimating the amount of empty land in our downtown. If the Bio Campus fills up with single uses (which it will), the people that work there might end up going to Roosevelt for lunch, or other surrounding areas. The campus' development will create more demand for the areas around it.

Even with ASU and the Bio Center, there is a ton of downtown land. All that empty land north of Van Buren from 1st to 7th Ave is zoned for very dense development.

[exit2lef]

We've got to stop looking at ground floor retail as the universal cure for urban woes. Throughout Downtown and Midtown, as well as along Apache Boulevard in Tempe, we've got dozens of buildings with empty ground floor retail. Diagonally across the street from the planned garage at 5th & Fillmore, there's already empty retail space in the Skyline Lofts. Do we want to add more to the surplus? Arquitect makes a good point. We need a mix of uses Downtown, but not every building or even every block has to be mixed used.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

The reason I prefer the garage to lots is because whether we want to or not, most people who work there are going to drive here. Does it suck, yes. I am as big of an urbanist as most in this site, but we also have to look at the realities of Phoenix. Yes it would be awesome if every single person who worked there would either take the light rail or live next door, but that is never going to happen. We can expand the light rail until the point where every street is covered, and there would still be people that drive there. So therefore we are left with two options, either the campus continues to use parking lots (8 stories worth of parking is a much larger gash in the urban core) or that can be compressed into a structure.

And no, there might not be an entire city block of parking in New York City, but next time you are there, I challenge you to notice how much parking there really is. You will be amazed. It is not that mush different from our downtown. It might be hidden a bit better, but it is there.

Concur cities in the west like, L.A., Seattle, and Portland all have a lot of parking garages. Just because we have some bus service and one light rail line doesn't mean people are suddenly going to abandon their cars, most especially in 120% heat. Are you kidding me?

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Concur cities in the west like, L.A., Seattle, and Portland all have a lot of parking garages. Just because we have some bus service and one light rail line doesn't mean people are suddenly going to abandon their cars, most especially in 120% heat. Are you kidding me?

It's not even really an issue about heat. It is more the fact that there really isn't anywhere in the city that can be considered a self-sustaining community. The light-rail helps you get almost everywhere, but what happens when you need to go get groceries, or you want to go hike, etc. Unfortunately, our city can't really be a carless city, at least not for the average resident who doesn't really want to make big sacrifices in order to no have a car.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

Compared to a parking garage, retail is actually a lot more expensive, since you have to worry about providing separate electric meters, providing water, among other thing. And having it sit empty does hurt the owner, since it increases the property tax of the space and also loses them potential spots they could charge for. A interesting screen or art wall would be a lot cheaper and could do a lot more for the space than empty store front.

Also, there are areas like these in other cities, even in dense urban centers, where there is predominantly one use. For instance. Midtown Manhattan along Park Ave has very little retail, and it is mostly office towers that are just as separate from the urban fabric as the city as the Bio Campus. Yet, they are one of the main engines for NYC and the people who work there go eat in surrounding areas. We might be underestimating the amount of empty land in our downtown. If the Bio Campus fills up with single uses (which it will), the people that work there might end up going to Roosevelt for lunch, or other surrounding areas. The campus' development will create more demand for the areas around it.

Even with ASU and the Bio Center, there is a ton of downtown land. All that empty land north of Van Buren from 1st to 7th Ave is zoned for very dense development.

Thanks for the information regarding costs for a floor of garage vs. empty retail.

And, I live in NYC so I know there are plenty of 1-use towers. Unfortunately, Phoenix is trying to make its downtown a 24/7 all-in-one city center, which really isn't the norm. Most cities have more defined districts, some more residential with just neighborhood retail, others more commercial/office, and others for the clubs, arts, cultural amenities, and so on.

Because that's what we are trying to attain, I don't think it is an unrealistic aspiration to want to place the infrastructure there now so that as the city fills in, deadzones are minimized and there's a chance at a pedestrian-scaled core.

Roosevelt Row, and the neighborhoods just south are the only organic, truly urban areas that are thriving in Phoenix. I think it's unfortunate that so many of these lots are going to be banked for the Bio campus and that these will come head-to-head at a point. I just feel like it's a missed opportunity to try and cultivate this really special place downtown if we allow monstrous garages with no life to them to go up.

Exit2Leaf- I agree, and this discussion is more about just adding retail, it's about finding other creative ways to make the ground levels of garages or 1-use buildings permeable and pedestrian-friendly, especially in what is Phoenix's main art district. Just because retail has failed doesn't mean we need to abandon it- it means we need to use it where it makes the most sense, and then use these other ideas where it doesn't.

I also really believe that is isn't fair to point at Skyline Lofts empty retail and say "retail is a failure in this area, there is a glut, etc." Of course their retail is empty, they are surrounded by dirt lots! Yet, they actually had a Yoga Den there for quite some time, and still have an accupuncture place. The failure of retail to take off in the newer mixed use projects is because there isn't enough density around to support it. If 4 Skyline Lofts faced each other, I bet the retail would fill up fast. Just like 4 Grigio Metros, etc. But, the reality is, these projects are all so spread out, the retail spaces don't gain any synergies with other retail and the numbers just aren't there in terms of people for it to pencil out.

But, the Bio Campus will continue to grow, as will Roosevelt, so any retail would certainly be used in the near future, IMO. Certainly more quickly than retail EVER coming to VB in the avenues. I know it's zoned for that, but we are decades away from seeing that area revitalized.

[Jjs5056]

FYI,

The garage will be including retail on 5th street, and the entire garage will be screened. They didn't seem to be too thrilled about either one of these modifications, but it's nice that they're making sacrifices so that it fits into the neighborhood and I liked hearing that it was the City who was insistent that it fit into the neighborhood.

They tried moving to 7th street, but there were too many obstacles.

Hopefully, as the Campus grows, ASU law moves in, etc. we'll see a demand for more housing, and these empty spaces won't be forever.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

FYI,

The garage will be including retail on 5th street, and the entire garage will be screened. They didn't seem to be too thrilled about either one of these modifications, but it's nice that they're making sacrifices so that it fits into the neighborhood and I liked hearing that it was the City who was insistent that it fit into the neighborhood.

They tried moving to 7th street, but there were too many obstacles.

Hopefully, as the Campus grows, ASU law moves in, etc. we'll see a demand for more housing, and these empty spaces won't be forever.

Do you have any details about how traffic flow will be altered at 5th & Fillmore as a result of the new garage? Right now, that corner is messy, especially during the PM rush. Hordes of cars come out of the Arizona Center garage on the west side of 5th and then try to cross multiple lanes to get into the little lane, separated from the rest of 5th by a triangle, that leads to eastbound Fillmore. I'm wondering where the entrances and exits for the new garage will be placed, as well as what alternations might be made to the triangle at the intersection and the Fillmore median.

[nickw252]