Your City's Style: Big City Downtown or Endless Streets?

[Nouvellecosse]

In that case then Signal's objection is quite valid. QC may be over twice as large, but its city centre would proportionally be at least that much more dominant.

[1overcosc]

I would argue that the following small cities are notable for having really good urban cores considering their size:

1) St. John's
2) Sherbooke
3) Trois-Rivieres
4) Kingston
5) Guelph
6) London
7) Victoria

All 7 have one key ingredient in common: they're old for their region.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by logan5

Victoria is the exception though. Pound for pound, the best downtown in Canada. Maybe even North America.

Hate to be a homer, but I think Kingston can give Victoria a run for its money. Trois-Rivieres as well.

[Metro-One]

For me what gives Vicotria the edge is just how vibrant it is.

It is not just the built form, but also how the pedestrian, event, cycling, and other such activities (that occur year round) give it the "bigger city feel" edge.

I honestly enjoy Victoria's night and pub scene more than Vancouver's in many ways.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Hate to be a homer, but I think Kingston can give Victoria a run for its money.

No.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

No.

Well, having been to Victoria and having lived in Kingston for 5 years, I can say that yes, they're reasonably comparable.

Victoria is gorgeous, mainly because it has the old architecture you just don't see in those quantities in that part of the country. But any well-boned historic small city in the east can match it. St. John's, Kingston, Trois-Rivieres, etc.

Victoria and Kingston are actually remarkably similar at street level. The most fascinating thing about Victoria for me was actually how similar it felt to Kingston on a lot of levels. Far more so than any other city I've been to, actually. Probably stems from a similar history and background as a colonial capital and then service centre.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Did you mean to say Elginton from Bathurst to Yonge perhaps? I have never heard anyone describe St. Clair from Bathurst to Yonge as urban, let alone intensely urban. St Clair from Bathurst to Yonge is 90% a residential street (that has a street car running along it). I lived in Forest Hill for years (nearest intersection St Clair and Avenue Road) and found the complete lack of urbanity along St Clair very frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I had to walk the entire length of St Clair to either Yonge or Bathurst to get groceries or eat out.

Yes, in a way anywhere from Broadview to Main on the Danforth is more urban than that strip. The strip on St Clair I mentioned is more like Bloor from Sherbourne to Yonge.

I also love Yonge Street from St Clair to Rosedale.

[eemy]

KW is all about streets. One looooonng street in particular.

[Beedok]

I would like to clarify that the underwhelming downtown was just for the most streets focused cities, like Hamilton (and I got the feeling Edmonton would fit there too). Toronto I would say is more balanced, and so much bigger, that the downtown is obviously impressive (although pound for pound Calgary does win out).

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I would like to clarify that the underwhelming downtown was just for the most streets focused cities, like Hamilton (and I got the feeling Edmonton would fit there too). Toronto I would say is more balanced, and so much bigger, that the downtown is obviously impressive (although pound for pound Calgary does win out).

Calgary's downtown, yupp, impressive but at times I wish we had a bit more of the Edmonton vibe going - Edmonton in some ways feels a bit like Montreal to me. There just seems to be a bit more vibrancy to Edmonton when you venture just outside of their core. Yeah, Calgary has it's interesting areas like Kensington, Inglewood, Bridgeland, 4th Street SW, 17th Avenue SW and even 11th Street SW but they all just seem to be lacking a bit of something.

Kensington in close in NW Calgary is going to lose even more of what was it's vibe as new developments go up there, can't be helped as the new buildings just won't be providing that character that the older buildings they replaced did. 11th Street SW, although very small, is what it is because of the older character buildings there - replace them with some new towers with retail at the base and it will never be the same.

I think Calgary will get better over time as densification happens in the older communities but will there be anything left of the charm that once was a part of these communities? My mid-50's community has a couple of strip malls that most suburbanites would find appalling but yet these strip malls are full of Mom and Pop stores and restaurants of which 2 of 24 are actually chains, the rest are all independents - this is something you will never see in suburbia or close-in communities where residential towers are the norm

People in ivory towers want their Starbucks or better, trendy grocery stores and trendy apparel shops - the corner store owned and operated by a Chinese family or used book store or a hair salon that hasn't been updated in 15 years just won't do for these people but it is these types of businesses that thrive in older buildings (lower rent) that provide character. I would rather but a quart of milk from the Chinese family who have made a living in our community for years as opposed to a chain that has no soul.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by speedog

Calgary's downtown, yupp, impressive but at times I wish we had a bit more of the Edmonton vibe going - Edmonton in some ways feels a bit like Montreal to me. There just seems to be a bit more vibrancy to Edmonton when you venture just outside of their core. Yeah, Calgary has it's interesting areas like Kensington, Inglewood, Bridgeland, 4th Street SW, 17th Avenue SW and even 11th Street SW but they all just seem to be lacking a bit of something.

Interesting. I've never been to either but having been exposed to the two cities on this forum, I somehow formed that impression.

[SkydivePilot]

Dare I to enter a comparison of Regina vs. Saskatoon here:

Regina 'seems' to feel smaller than Saskatoon due to each of their respective road networks. (Even though both cities each possess incredible sprawl --- Saskatoon even more so.) On the other hand, Saskatoon's CBD appears to be VERY underwhelming in appearance compared to Regina's. Regina is the clear dominator in the skyline vs. sprawl department though.

[KnoxfordGuy]

I'd say Saint John has a pretty urban vibe when you stand on the corner of King and Prince William Streets.

[le calmar]

I think that big cities with a vibrant downtown will definitely have other commercial streets (that go on and on...). That would disqualify the Big 3, as each of them has both. As for other large cities and medium sized cities, this is a relevant question.

As someone pointed out, outside the core, Ottawa doesn't have much to offer (downtown includes the Market, Centretown, The Glebe), except 3 or 4 commercial streets, and most of them are ok, but not so urban (Hintongburg might be the only exception)

Trois-Rivières definitely has a strong downtown and not much outside of it. Sherbrooke has a somewhat ok downtown (not as healthy as Trois-Rivières, but after travelling quite a bit I came to the conclusion it was not as bad as I thought when I lived there) and a couple of commercial streets here and there, but nothing that is really pedestrian-friendly (Queen St. in Lennoxville maybe)

Kingston definitely gave me the impression of a healthy and vibrant downtown, but I didn't explore the rest of the city much.

[Nouvellecosse]

For me, the question really has to be in large part related to built form as much as vibrancy. I just don't consider vibrancy to be a specifically big city centre characteristic. Vibrant areas can include small towns and cities, college campuses, and non central neighbourhoods and districts rather than just large city downtowns. And big cities can have areas, including CBDs, that aren't terribly vibrant also. In other words, a vibrant downtown and a big city downtown aren't necessarily the same thing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

For me what gives Vicotria the edge is just how vibrant it is.

It is not just the built form, but also how the pedestrian, event, cycling, and other such activities (that occur year round) give it the "bigger city feel" edge.

Have you ever been to Kingston though? I won't get into that debate, but as far as vibrancy goes cities in Canada, big and small, are all over the map. The year-round warm temperature stuff is also easy to over-emphasize. People get used to the climate they live in. A lot of the colder cities have public winter activities like skating, and a lot of cities outside of BC aren't so cold that typical winter days are miserable for pedestrians.

If a city is actively in the middle of a huge cold snap or snow storm that's one thing, but outside of those times I haven't found that places like Toronto and Halifax have a bigger summer/winter variation in outdoor activity levels compared to Vancouver and Victoria. I haven't been to Montreal or Ottawa in the winter, but I get the impression that both are "winter cities" where people actually get out and do stuff when it's -5 and below. And Vancouver and Victoria are not particularly busy cities in the scheme of things. If anything I'd describe them as kind of quiet and relaxed, though not necessarily in a bad way.

[le calmar]

Montreal and Ottawa streets are usually full of people in the winter. Not quite the level of animation you would get in the summer, but you still get lots of people walking around. But as you say, that won't be true during a snowstorm or a cold snap, which is maybe the equivalent of 2 weeks in the winter where the streets will be pretty much deserted. Due to the absence of patios, the Byward market don't get the same level of animation in the winter though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I'm curious about how people view their city's urban zones. Some cities have a majorly impressive downtown, but there's not so as much for an urban enthusiast outside that core. Other cities have a somewhat underwhelming downtown, but then once you go out and explore the city those walkable commercial strips go on forever. Other cities are definitely a mix, but most lean at least somewhat one way or the other.

My impression of this is that there isn't really a trade-off, there are just cities that have these features to different degrees. The growth periods of cities seem to explain a lot of this. Prior to electric streetcars, neighbourhoods tended to be more compact and a lot of Canadian cities were small so they didn't extend much beyond what are the modern downtown areas. Once streetcars became available, commercial development tended to follow the lines and became lower density and more geographically extensive. After that cars came along and there was a shift to malls.

Los Angeles to me stands out as a prime example of a city that doesn't have much pre-streetcar development. It has a mix of relatively compact streetcar-oriented commercial districts and a lot of suburban car-oriented strips. Downtown LA is quite small relative to the size of the metropolitan area. Vancouver followed this pattern of growth as well up until the past few decades when there was a deliberate attempt to concentrate development on the downtown peninsula. So it's basically LA with downtown condos and any secondary commercial development that spun off of that.

Toronto and Montreal are somewhere in between, but also grew a lot during that streetcar period.

Halifax has a large core of old development and relatively small early 20th century neighbourhoods. It was big enough and grew slowly enough that there are 1860's and older neighbourhoods like Gottingen and the Cornwallis Park area that were never redeveloped as downtown commercial areas. Quebec City, Saint John, and St. John's are like this too. These parts of town were pretty rough as late as the 90's, because population densities fell so much, but they seem to be experiencing a renaissance today.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Montreal and Ottawa streets are usually full of people in the winter. Not quite the level of animation you would get in the summer, but you still get lots of people walking around. But as you say, that won't be true during a snowstorm or a cold snap, which is maybe the equivalent of 2 weeks in the winter where the streets will be pretty much deserted. Due to the absence of patios, the Byward market don't get the same level of animation in the winter though.

In Halifax there are lots of nice winter days with full sun and temperatures around freezing (this is basically the average state). People don't sit inside on those days, they go outside and do stuff. Even if it's +5 or +10 and sunny you'll see people out lying in the sun and whatnot. One of the differences that is missed in the temperatures is that the winter there is much brighter than it is here in BC.

I do find that the misunderstanding goes in both directions though. A lot of people see rain in the forecast every day here in the winter and they figure everyone miserably sits inside during constant storms. In reality it's mostly on and off drizzle, it's not a big deal, and you can get out and do lots of stuff year-round.

[rousseau]

Victoria has a really solid and attractive commercial downtown area. Kingston's is only about half the size, and I don't see how they really compare. I personally prefer the eccentric Victorian shopfronts of Kingston that are typical of southern Ontario over the American-style monolithic commercial blocks of Victoria, and Kingston's residential adjacent to downtown is a lot nicer than Victoria's, but on the whole I think Victoria is more impressive.

It didn't seem very busy to me the one time I visited though. It's anecdotal, but my Winnipeg-native friend living there said it was "deader than Winnipeg."

Actually, this topic points to a fundamental difference between the cities and towns of Ontario and Quebec and just about anywhere else in the country. Here and in Quebec we tend to have long commercial streets instead of two-dimensional commercial districts with depth. Chances are that when you turn off Yonge, Queen, St. Laurent or St. Denis (outside of downtown) you're suddenly transported into residential streets. It's the opposite of the Londonesque, where commercial districts consist of jumbles of streets that you can lose yourself in, veering this way and that. Toronto's overt linearity can be a let-down on a long walk because you rarely feel inspired to turn off the street you're on.