Your City's Style: Big City Downtown or Endless Streets?

[Beedok]

I'm curious about how people view their city's urban zones. Some cities have a majorly impressive downtown, but there's not so as much for an urban enthusiast outside that core. Other cities have a somewhat underwhelming downtown, but then once you go out and explore the city those walkable commercial strips go on forever. Other cities are definitely a mix, but most lean at least somewhat one way or the other.

(Now obviously what makes an impressive downtown fora city of 50K is very much smaller than an impressive downtown for a city of a million, and what constitutes endless streets in a city of 100K could still be less endless than the downtown centred development of a city of 6 million. Also some cities are just less urban in general, but probably still have a focus.)

I'll focus on places I've lived to start:
Hamilton is very much about the streets, the downtown is honestly a bit underwhelming for a city of it's size, but the commercial streets go on and on.

Thunder Bay is a bit messy, in part for being two cities historically, I can certainly say the north end is about endless streets while the downtown is a bit less impressive. The south end though feels like it leands towards a downtown focus (though Simpson Street has a solid build form and Westfort is a thing).

Ottawa is more balanced than some, but I'd still say the downtown takes the main focus. There are a few major streets going out, but there's only 3-4 examples that feel like they go on and on.

St Catherines was also pretty balanced, but I would say it leans somewhat towards the downtown.

(Hopefully this doesn't prove a controversial topic...)

[SignalHillHiker]

For us, I'd say we have an impressive but very small downtown. I think someone moving here from a large city would at first be relieved at the urbanity and number of feet on the street downtown - but after walking Water and Duckworth, be alarmed and disappointed by how small it is. There's one of everything you need. But there's often only one.

Surrounding rowhouse districts add romance and a sense of urbanity, but there are not enough commercial properties or people (with a few excellent exceptions) to suspend the small town feeling.

Beyond that the city feels like a subdivision along some highway between two towns of 25,000 tops.

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=Beedok;7317950]I'm curious about how people view their city's urban zones. Some cities have a majorly impressive downtown, but there's not so as much for an urban enthusiast outside that core. Other cities have a somewhat underwhelming downtown, but then once you go out and explore the city those walkable commercial strips go on forever. Other cities are definitely a mix, but most lean at least somewhat one way or the other.

(Now obviously what makes an impressive downtown fora city of 50K is very much smaller than an impressive downtown for a city of a million, and what constitutes endless streets in a city of 100K could still be less endless than the downtown centred development of a city of 6 million. Also some cities are just less urban in general, but probably still have a focus.)

I'll focus on places I've lived to start:
Hamilton is very much about the streets, the downtown is honestly a bit underwhelming for a city of it's size, but the commercial streets go on and on.

Thunder Bay is a bit messy, in part for being two cities historically, I can certainly say the north end is about endless streets while the downtown is a bit less impressive. The south end though feels like it leands towards a downtown focus (though Simpson Street has a solid build form and Westfort is a thing).

Ottawa is more balanced than some, but I'd still say the downtown takes the main focus. There are a few major streets going out, but there's only 3-4 examples that feel like they go on and on.

St Catherines was also pretty balanced, but I would say it leans somewhat towards the downtown.

(Hopefully this doesn't prove a controversial topic...)[/QUOTE]

And even if it does... no big deal!

[1overcosc]

Kingston falls into an "endless streets" category for the inner city. The urban core takes up a huge chunk of land considering how small the city is overall. But there's no central high rise node or anything like that.

[yaletown_fella]

Toronto is definitely in the "endless streets" category. I like to think of it as a molecule: endless streets connected by "atoms" of intense urbanity (Financial District, Bloor-Yonge, St Clair from Bathurst to Yonge, Yonge-Eglinton, NYCC, King-Bathurst, Regent Park)
Its financial district is pretty looking but underwhelming considering its population.

Montreal and Vancouver boast impressive downtowns for their population. They are more a mix of "Big City Downtown" and "Endless Streets" As the nodes become connected, and commercial strips become redeveloped, facedectomized, vertically expanded...Toronto will shift into this category 20-30 years down the road.

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

Montreal and Vancouver boast impressive downtowns for their population. They are more a mix of "Big City Downtown" and "Endless Streets" As the nodes become connected, and commercial strips become redeveloped, facedectomized, vertically expanded...Toronto will shift into this category 20-30 years down the road.

I don't know for Vancouver. But living in Montreal, I'd say that Montreal's downtown is not the most impressive. I think Montreal would rather belong to the "Endless Streets" category. I mean, the city has plexes neighbourhoods with human-scaled walkable commercial streets basically stretching from Ahuntsic to Vieux-Montréal, and from Verdun to Maisonneuve / Viauville.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

Toronto is definitely in the "endless streets" category. I like to think of it as a molecule: endless streets connected by "atoms" of intense urbanity (Financial District, Bloor-Yonge, St Clair from Bathurst to Yonge, Yonge-Eglinton, NYCC, King-Bathurst, Regent Park).

Did you mean to say Elginton from Bathurst to Yonge perhaps? I have never heard anyone describe St. Clair from Bathurst to Yonge as urban, let alone intensely urban. St Clair from Bathurst to Yonge is 90% a residential street (that has a street car running along it). I lived in Forest Hill for years (nearest intersection St Clair and Avenue Road) and found the complete lack of urbanity along St Clair very frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I had to walk the entire length of St Clair to either Yonge or Bathurst to get groceries or eat out.

[Prometheus]

Well, I could eat out and get limited groceries at Forest Hill Village. But that's on Spadina, not St Clair. Actually, thank god for Forest Hill Village.

[logan5]

It's hard for any city under a million people to have a great downtown or great commercial streets. Even some cities over a million aren't especially great. Victoria is the exception though. Pound for pound, the best downtown in Canada. Maybe even North America.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Did you mean to say Elginton from Bathurst to Yonge perhaps? I have never heard anyone describe St. Clair from Bathurst to Yonge as urban, let alone intensely urban. St Clair from Bathurst to Yonge is 90% a residential street (that has a street car running along it). I lived in Forest Hill for years (nearest intersection St Clair and Avenue Road) and found the complete lack of urbanity along St Clair very frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I had to walk the entire length of St Clair to either Yonge or Bathurst to get groceries or eat out.

Yes, in a way anywhere from Broadview to Main on the Danforth is more urban than that strip. The strip on St Clair I mentioned is more like Bloor from Sherbourne to Yonge.

I also love Yonge Street from St Clair to Rosedale.

[softee]

I think Toronto is a perfect mix of big city downtown and endless streets. Downtown is HUGE, bustling, packed with retail and growing like gangbusters, and the many commercial streets that criss cross the city are quite healthy and very busy with pedestrian traffic and really do seem to go on forever.

I don't really see how the financial district is underwhelming, stand at the corner of King and Bay at rush hour see how underwhelmed you feel. hah

[osmo]

Originally Posted by softee

I think Toronto is a perfect mix of big city downtown and endless streets. Downtown is HUGE, bustling, packed with retail and growing like gangbusters, and the many commercial streets that criss cross the city are quite healthy and very busy with pedestrian traffic and really do seem to go on forever.

I don't really see how the financial district is underwhelming, stand at the corner of King and Bay at rush hour see how underwhelmed you feel. hah

But then wait a hour and it's a ghost town. Bay street is a deadzone most of the time aside from lunch and rush hours.

Downtown Toronto's core used to have much better mix of use with a evening and late crowd being out and about at the bars and nightclubs. In that eras prime 100k people use to party in downtown Toronto at night every weekend.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by softee

I think Toronto is a perfect mix of big city downtown and endless streets. Downtown is HUGE, bustling, packed with retail and growing like gangbusters, and the many commercial streets that criss cross the city are quite healthy and very busy with pedestrian traffic and really do seem to go on forever.

I don't really see how the financial district is underwhelming, stand at the corner of King and Bay at rush hour see how underwhelmed you feel. hah

It'd be more accurate to say "stand at the corner of the TD Centre north-south PATH and the TD Centre east-west PATH, by where that chocolate shop now is (used to be Bowrings)". That's far more overwhelming than standing at King & Bay at 5 PM. When I see people from my office leaving for the day, they're overwhelmingly headed down the escalator into the underground, with just a trickle going out the door to King & Bay (usually those are the ones who are really late for the GO -- it's faster to run down Bay Street than to go through the jam-packed and somewhat circuitous PATH).

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It'd be more accurate to say "stand at the corner of the TD Centre north-south PATH and the TD Centre east-west PATH, by where that chocolate shop now is (used to be Bowrings)". That's far more overwhelming than standing at King & Bay at 5 PM. When I see people from my office leaving for the day, they're overwhelmingly headed down the escalator into the underground, with just a trickle going out the door to King & Bay (usually those are the ones who are really late for the GO -- it's faster to run down Bay Street than to go through the jam-packed and somewhat circuitous PATH).

Try it on a nice day in June and its much busier. If its 25 degrees outside and you have been cooped up in an office all day long, a 5 minute walk outside sounds mighty attractive. In the middle of January, not so much.

[logan5]

Another point about Victoria... its population density is over 10 000 people per sq mile (in 7.5 sq miles). I believe only the big 3 can better that, using those parameters.

[softee]

^ I walk through the financial district outside of rush hour and on weekends and it's never like a ghost town, there are always people about and there are more restaurants and bars in the area now than ever before.

[le calmar]

^ Large American cities tend to have a underwhelming downtown. They have nice architecture and all, but vibrant? Not so much. On the other hand, I do think that the smaller american cities tend to be better than ours, more things going on there at street level. So I am not sure about that last claim about Victoria.

[Nouvellecosse]

In that case then Signal's objection is quite valid. QC may be over twice as large, but its city centre would proportionally be at least that much more dominant.

[1overcosc]

I would argue that the following small cities are notable for having really good urban cores considering their size:

1) St. John's
2) Sherbooke
3) Trois-Rivieres
4) Kingston
5) Guelph
6) London
7) Victoria

All 7 have one key ingredient in common: they're old for their region.

[Metro-One]

For me what gives Vicotria the edge is just how vibrant it is.

It is not just the built form, but also how the pedestrian, event, cycling, and other such activities (that occur year round) give it the "bigger city feel" edge.

I honestly enjoy Victoria's night and pub scene more than Vancouver's in many ways.