Carling Avenue Transit Corridor

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

Scott / Albert just had a shave and pave between Empress and Parkdale (not quite sure how far west), that entire portion is expected to be rebuild in the next 2 years.

Unless they've done more of that recently, I believe they only repaved the bus lanes which were in far more dire condition than the rest of the road.

They lack the concrete pads at stops that other Transitway stations had so the tire indentations in the asphalt had gotten pretty deep (particularly at Bayswater)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

When did they start construction of the Moodie extension? Stage 2 extension to Moodie was announced February 2017 and the Transitway extension opened December 2017. So unless they had the contracts approved for the Transitway extension before the Stage 2 extension was announced, and cancelling the contract would have been nearly as expensive as building it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_Line

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moodie_station

While it may not have opened until December 2017, according to this article, construction started in December 2015 (more than a year before the first suggestion that they wanted to extend the OTrain to Moodie), so construction contracts would certainly have been signed. Considering most of the cost of the Transitway was ground preparation (something the OTrain would also have needed), the cost of canceling the contract would have been much higher than the continuing, since most of the work was reusable.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While it may not have opened until December 2017, according to this article, construction started in December 2015 (more than a year before the first suggestion that they wanted to extend the OTrain to Moodie), so construction contracts would certainly have been signed. Considering most of the cost of the Transitway was ground preparation (something the OTrain would also have needed), the cost of canceling the contract would have been much higher than the continuing, since most of the work was reusable.

December 2015. Wow, far earlier than I thought.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Something is going to have to be done about Carling Ave transit, and soon.

I can assure you nothing will be done about Carling Ave transit. I can't see that happening for 20 years. Look at how many Eglinton crosstown projects have been proposed, started and canceled in one of the best use imaginable cases in a city several times our size.

It would be beyond us to introduce an 85 express or even increase the frequency. Ditto for the 88 and Baseline.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I can assure you nothing will be done about Carling Ave transit. I can't see that happening for 20 years. Look at how many Eglinton crosstown projects have been proposed, started and canceled in one of the best use imaginable cases in a city several times our size.

It would be beyond us to introduce an 85 express or even increase the frequency. Ditto for the 88 and Baseline.

I'm convinced that the City just draws lines on a map to attract TOD and then never actually builds the "T" because they already have the tax dollars.

[Jay31]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I can assure you nothing will be done about Carling Ave transit. I can't see that happening for 20 years. Look at how many Eglinton crosstown projects have been proposed, started and canceled in one of the best use imaginable cases in a city several times our size.

It would be beyond us to introduce an 85 express or even increase the frequency. Ditto for the 88 and Baseline.

Not to be overly cynical, but I think a challenge in Ottawa here is that the people who would primarily benefit from improved transit on Carling are a less important voting block than the people who might be inconvenienced by having a couple of minutes added to their commute because they can't always blast down Carling at 80k. Even for the local councillors, the driving NIMBYs in the SFH neighbourhoods around Carling are far more vocal than those who may actually take transit. Even simple things like adding a sidewalk to a bus stop can draw angry mobs...

I'm hopeful that all of this development will eventually push the need to improve Carling itself for more than just drivers avoiding the Queensway, but I don't see that happening until these developments are built and at least stage 2 of the LRT is complete... perhaps 2040ish.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by Jay31

Not to be overly cynical, but I think a challenge in Ottawa here is that the people who would primarily benefit from improved transit on Carling are a less important voting block than the people who might be inconvenienced by having a couple of minutes added to their commute because they can't always blast down Carling at 80k. Even for the local councillors, the driving NIMBYs in the SFH neighbourhoods around Carling are far more vocal than those who may actually take transit. Even simple things like adding a sidewalk to a bus stop can draw angry mobs...

I'm hopeful that all of this development will eventually push the need to improve Carling itself for more than just drivers avoiding the Queensway, but I don't see that happening until these developments are built and at least stage 2 of the LRT is complete... perhaps 2040ish.

You aren't wrong. Those juicy medians on Baseline and Carling are just begging to be expanded into transit though. Mostly straight and level as well.

[Kitchissippi]

I doubt there are many who live along Carling who really oppose the transit priority plans. In fact the few people I know who live in Glabar Park really want it. I think there are other issues at play here. In recent months there have been a lot of digging on the avenue, currently there's a big hole on the median just east of the Maitland intersection, and they just closed one up around Clyde. It looks like there are underground utilities that need to be addressed first. There's also the fact that the Queensway widening has not been completed as well as the LRT work at Lincoln Fields, both of which have impacts on the traffic on Carling.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I doubt there are many who live along Carling who really oppose the transit priority plans. In fact the few people I know who live in Glabar Park really want it. I think there are other issues at play here. In recent months there have been a lot of digging on the avenue, currently there's a big hole on the median just east of the Maitland intersection, and they just closed one up around Clyde. It looks like there are underground utilities that need to be addressed first. There's also the fact that the Queensway widening has not been completed as well as the LRT work at Lincoln Fields, both of which have impacts on the traffic on Carling.

Carling will always have some amount of construction, detours, you name it... if the City waits for the "perfect" time to implement bus lanes it will never happen.

No one can rationally argue against these bus lanes, so the strategy of those who hate it when car lanes are reallocated is to delay, delay, delay. Enough. Paint the lanes, and do it now, in 2023.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Carling will always have some amount of construction, detours, you name it... if the City waits for the "perfect" time to implement bus lanes it will never happen.

No one can rationally argue against these bus lanes, so the strategy of those who hate it when car lanes are reallocated is to delay, delay, delay. Enough. Paint the lanes, and do it now, in 2023.

Agreed, just put the lanes in where they can be put in and fix as required paint is cheap....

Also, if you were to believe certain councilors these lanes are holding up lanes on other roads, such as the ones on merivale between baseline & carling.

[Kitchissippi]

The elephant in the room is this: Is OC Transpo even prepared to make full use of transit priority on Carling? Will it result in better service and performance? There’s only really one bus rote that uses its entire length and runs at best on 15-20 minute frequency. How hampered is it by the traffic?

I would love, love, love to see all these changes on Carling, but it needs to be accompanied by a plan and a promise to improve bus service, like maybe adding several other routes (Bayshore to Carleton/South Keys?) and/or bringing frequency to under 10 minutes. Otherwise it won’t make much of a difference and just give fodder for the conspiracy theory that this is simply some scheme to reduce car access.

[Harley613]

Any bus lanes that are added to Carling would have to be segregated by curbs or barriers at this point, at least in my opinion. Post pandemic, on both sides of the river, I have noticed a huge number of entitled people completely ignore Bus and HOV lanes during traffic. The rush hour bus lanes on Wellington and the Portage are clogged with solo assholes getting honked at by buses every single day for example.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The elephant in the room is this: Is OC Transpo even prepared to make full use of transit priority on Carling?

What does this even mean? A transit lane doesn't need to be used to 100% capacity to be useful in prioritizing improving travel times and reliability.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Will it result in better service and performance?

Yes - The 2017 Carling Avenue transit priority study showed several minutes of travel time improvement over the do-nothing scenario. Transit priority also generally reduces variation in travel time, which allows for more accurate schedules and less schedule padding.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There’s only really one bus route that uses its entire length and runs at best on 15-20 minute frequency.

While this is true, the planned transit priority also benefits overlapping routes like Route 55 and Route 80. In addition, transit priority's ability to reduce travel time and reliability drives ridership growth, which increases frequencies. Finally, all this planned development along the corridor (tieing this back into the 1640-1660 development) will increase ridership, again increasing frequencies. Transit priority has been shown again and again to build ridership and therefore build the business case for higher-order rapid transit.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

How hampered is it by the traffic?

Hampered enough that the 2017 transit priority study estimated several minutes in travel time savings with transit priority. Hampered enough that data obtained by Capital Current showed that, of OC Transpo's 10 busiest bus routes, Route 85 had the worst on-time performance: https://capitalcurrent.ca/data-shows...d-of-the-time/.

Even if you think traffic isn't heavy-enough to hamper transit, if we wait another 10-20 years before implementing transit priority traffic will get worse and worse. Then when we try to install the transit priority people will complain "you can't take away a vehicle lane, look how bad traffic is, you're going to make it unbearable!!". Implementing transit priority now is future-proofing against traffic growth.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I would love, love, love to see all these changes on Carling, but it needs to be accompanied by a plan and a promise to improve bus service, like maybe adding several other routes (Bayshore to Carleton/South Keys?) and/or bringing frequency to under 10 minutes. Otherwise it won’t make much of a difference and just give fodder for the conspiracy theory that this is simply some scheme to reduce car access.

As I've said, it will make a difference, and the frequency improvements you are asking for will be driven by the transit priority improvements. Again, let's not wait until the stars align to make these improvements because the stars will never align.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Any bus lanes that are added to Carling would have to be segregated by curbs or barriers at this point, at least in my opinion. Post pandemic, on both sides of the river, I have noticed a huge number of entitled people completely ignore Bus and HOV lanes during traffic. The rush hour bus lanes on Wellington and the Portage are clogged with solo assholes getting honked at by buses every single day for example.

Curbs are a heavy-handed approach and would make winder maintenance difficult. OC Transpo needs to start using on-board enforcement cameras. Honking doesn't do anything. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...can-fight-back

Enforcement cameras would do wonders for the Rideau/Montreal peak period transit lanes as well.

[Harley613]

I feel like the two cities could make up half their budget in a single day by putting enforcement cameras in bus/HOV lanes at this point

Fantastic idea

[OTSkyline]

Carling should become a frequent, reliable, cross-town route. It isn't today, but it could with a few changes a bit of investment (nothing like a new LRT requires).

Many people don't use the Carling routes today because the buses are stuck in traffic, they bunch up (and so don't come at their scheduled times, etc). Also, a lot of people are using bus routes today bringing them to the nearest LRT station. In the future, a crosstown Carling bus route would have the benefit of connecting transit users to Lincoln Fields (LRT west) and Dow's Lake (LRT South).

[roger1818]

I suspect the problem with Carling BRT is that while most of it is wide enough that bus lanes could easily be added, there are a few short stretches where it is too narrow without widening the road (or reducing Carling to 2 lanes total), and those are where most delays occur.

[Jay31]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I suspect the problem with Carling BRT is that while most of it is wide enough that bus lanes could easily be added, there are a few short stretches where it is too narrow without widening the road (or reducing Carling to 2 lanes total), and those are where most delays occur.

I feel like this is the kind of "Won't somebody please think of the traffic" argument that comes up whenever so much as a speed bump is proposed around Ottawa (and I have sat in local meetings literally about adding a speed bump). Without removing the median in some places - where there are only two lanes in each direction, you are correct that there would only be one lane for traffic. But this has often been the case in places over the past few years due to construction and it has hardly caused traffic chaos - a bit of a slow down at rush hour sure, but not a major traffic jam.

The 85 bus is frustrating to take and one that I used to take pains to avoid. Today, you would probably get down Carling faster on a bike (on the sidewalk of course, riding on Carling itself is suicide). I think traffic priority would significantly induce demand (as would a bike lane, but let's not go crazy).

I think what goes unsaid in discussions about Carling is that many people like the fact that most of the time it is clear and wide enough that cars can use it as a speedway alternative to the Queensway. This induces a lot of traffic demand from people avoiding traffic on the Queensway (self included many times). Adding priority lanes would take that factor away.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Jay31

I feel like this is the kind of "Won't somebody please think of the traffic" argument that comes up whenever so much as a speed bump is proposed around Ottawa (and I have sat in local meetings literally about adding a speed bump). Without removing the median in some places - where there are only two lanes in each direction, you are correct that there would only be one lane for traffic. But this has often been the case in places over the past few years due to construction and it has hardly caused traffic chaos - a bit of a slow down at rush hour sure, but not a major traffic jam.

I am not saying that it shouldn't be done, but that it is a political hot potato. Like it or not, but the majority of voters have cars. Certainly Sutcliffe would see this as part of his self invented "war on cars" and would oppose such a move. My point was that the low hanging fruit won't provide much benefit.

The 85 bus is frustrating to take and one that I used to take pains to avoid. Today, you would probably get down Carling faster on a bike (on the sidewalk of course, riding on Carling itself is suicide). I think traffic priority would significantly induce demand (as would a bike lane, but let's not go crazy).

There is another factor. The bike lobby is significantly stronger than the transit lobby, and any new bus lane would need to come with bike lanes, further complicating the issue.

I think what goes unsaid in discussions about Carling is that many people like the fact that most of the time it is clear and wide enough that cars can use it as a speedway alternative to the Queensway. This induces a lot of traffic demand from people avoiding traffic on the Queensway (self included many times). Adding priority lanes would take that factor away.

Agreed. Carling certainly needs a significant road diet. I don't know if there is the political will to give it one though.

[qprcanada]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed. Carling certainly needs a significant road diet. I don't know if there is the political will to give it one though.

In an answer to a question I had about the Sherwood Drive traffic calming plan and specifically the intersection with Carling, a city staffer emailed me that "Carling Ave reconstruction is planned for 2028 at the earliest." Perhaps a road diet and transit corridor can be designed so they can take place at this time.