Trillium Line (O-Train) Updates

[TransitZilla]

From today's Citizen.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/ot...940/story.html

Just build it already: O-Train expansion slowed by LRT construction


BY DEREK SPALDING, OTTAWA CITIZEN AUGUST 30, 2013 7:44 AM


Ottawa’s never been short on big ideas, but we always seem to fall short when it comes to making them happen. In this series, the Citizen’s City Hall bureau checks in on some of the apparently good ideas that still haven’t made it off the drawing board.O-Train Extension

The idea: Extend the O-Train past the airport to link Ottawa’s southern neighbourhoods to easily accessible transit

The cost: An estimated $75 million

The problem: Construction of the LRT means increased ridership on the O-Train for the next five years. City staff suggests the expansion would overwhelm the line and some connecting bus routes during LRT construction

The status: No funding allotted for the extension until 2031, but some councillors want the plan moving ahead as soon as LRT is complete, if not sooner than that.

O-Train extension would be extremely popular, but would create problems, say city staff

Ever since the O-Train pilot project began on October 15, 2001, the rail line has evolved into one of the city’s most important public transit connectors.

The diesel-powered trains provide more than 12,000 passenger trips per day, operating seven days a week along the eight-kilometre corridor between Greenboro Station and Bayview Station. With Carleton University located along the route, this north-south line has allowed students to live in neighbourhoods where commutes were once logistical nightmares.

Ridership is expected to increase this fall when the city completes its $59-million upgrade to the existing line, increasing the frequency of trains from every 15 minutes to eight minutes. When councillors agreed to this improvement in 2011, they also wanted to know how much it would cost to extend the track incrementally south from Greenboro Station to Leitrim Road and then west toward Riverside South.

The answer: an estimated $76 million, according to a staff report presented to the commission in February 2012.

OTTAWA — Angie D’Aoust stopped taking the bus to get from her home in Riverside South to her work in Centrepointe because the lengthy commute was a logistical nightmare.

Her family is just one of many in the area who would gladly turn to public transit, if there was a quick and easy link to the rest of the city, D’Aoust says.

One viable and reasonably affordable option is an extension of the O-Train past the Macdonald Cartier Airport, but there is no political will to make that happen any time soon. City staff studied the option of doubling the line by adding an additional eight kilometres of track south of the airport and then west to Bowesville Road.

The extension would push the number of annual passenger trips up to a whopping 3.6 million, according to the staff report from 2011. And despite the estimated low cost of $76 million, the anticipated ridership increase would be too much for the system to handle during the construction of the downtown light rail transit line.

But for people like D’Aoust, an extension can’t come soon enough. Last year, her son moved out of the family home on Tewsley Drive because the commute to Algonquin College was just too much.

“A college student to spend four hours a day on the bus, when they could be studying or working instead? That’s insanity,” D’Aoust said.

City staff’s report shows that about 725,000 of the 3.6 million trips would be new to the transit system and would include people like D’Aoust, while 2.8 million trips would be from people who would have otherwise taken a bus.

Demand for the extension is there, said Diane Deans, ward councillor for Gloucester-Southgate. Echoing the report, she believes people would prefer to take the train instead of driving or busing.

“I’d like to see it sooner rather than later,” she said.

The extension would stretch approximately eight kilometres south of Greenboro Station, where the line ends now, doubling the length of the track. Trains would reach just south of Leitrim Station, then head west to a new station at Bowesville.

Communities such as Riverside South would have to be serviced with convenient local transit buses to make the connection, and a new park-and-ride would provide options for people wanting to drive.

“If there was a service there, I would definitely use it,” D’Aoust said.

She started driving her car to work after bus service in her neighbourhood changed and made it more difficult for her to get to work. Her 20-minute drive became much more attractive than a bus ride that took nearly two hours.

The airport already has a route selected in case the city does follow through on expanding a train service farther south. For Ann Tremblay, director of airport planning, working with the city for a new service to the site is important to maintain easy access to the airport.

“We’ve always said to the city that if they bring some form of rapid rail, whether it’s LRT or the O-Train, that we would certainly consider it and make room for it,” she said.

The O-Train expansion, however, comes with its complications, which is the main reason for not moving forward with the project. The staff report indicates an extension “or any other enhancement” would lead to severe congestion on the O-Train and on connecting bus routes into the downtown during construction of the Confederation Line.

While the LRT line is being built, the O-Train is providing alternate service for customers who could face delays because of detours between Hurdman Station and downtown, according to the report that suggests “no enhancement” until after the Confederation Line is running in 2018.

“A southerly extension would then be possible without causing overcrowding,” the document states.

To deal with the LRT construction, the city invested $59-million to upgrade the existing O-Train line, increasing the frequency of trains from every 15 minutes to eight minutes. Any additional capacity would be too much during the next five years of construction, which is a hurdle for politicians such as Deans who would like to expand the line now.

“I would like to see us get on with this and proceed, but having said that, I also recognize that one of the reasons we have expanded the service and purchased new trains, is to deal with the construction years ... when we’re transferring a lot of our riders from the bus service and onto the O-Train line,” she said. “So, the issue for the city is capacity during those construction years.”

Demand for the extended O-Train service will certainly increase by 2018, says Deans, who recognizes the growing communities in her ward. D’Aoust also sees the growth and hopes the transit services follow.

“This is a family community. There’s a lot of college aged students and there will be more and more,” she said.

A breakdown of the proposed O-Train expansion

The Cost:

$76 million

The plan:

The extension would stretch approximately 8 km south of Greenboro Station, where the line ends now, doubling the length of the track. Trains would reach just south of Leitrim Station and then head west to a new station at Bowesville Road just south of the airport. To allow the trains on the single-line railway to pass each other when travelling in opposite directions, three crossing sections could be built near Greenboro Station, Lester Road and between Leitrim Station and Bowesville Road.

South Keys Station:

New train platforms would be built at the existing Transitway Station.

Leitrim Station:

With new platforms next to the existing bus loop and park and ride, the station would serve residents from Findlay Creek and other nearby communities who could then bike, walk or drive to the O-Train.

Bowesville Station:

A new station at Bowesville Road has already been considered for the future north-south light-rail line. Local bus routes and a new park and ride would provide connections to the new service.

Operating:

With the latest purchase of six new trains, the city now has enough (nine trains) to operate an extended track with service every eight minutes. Seven could run regularly with two spares.

Ridership:

Extension to Bowesville Road could have 3.6 million one-way trips each year, including 725,000 new trips and 2.8 million trips that would otherwise be made by bus.

Complications:

The O-Train will be heavily used during construction of the Confederation Line and the anticipated increase in ridership from an extended line would create a high risk of overcrowding, both on the O-Train and on connecting bus routes into the downtown.

dspalding@ottawacitizen.com

twitter.com/Derek_Spalding

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

We should be starting the planning for the south O-Train extension immediately so that it can open the same day as the Confederation Line!

As for the lady in Riverside South heading to Centrepointe, her problem will be addressed once the Strandherd Bridge finally opens and the 94 is extended across it.

[Harley613]

This is what I get from that article: New line in red, stations starred, and I interpolated a future extension in green.

[DarkArconio]

That's about right, there's a pdf with the exact planned route on the city website. But the green is going to be built as transit way, through a new 'town centre' in the field to the right of the current suburb. The terminus would presumably be a transfer point for the duration of the 40 year transportation plan.

[Beedok]

I have a feeling that 75 million spent on buses in the core would serve significantly more people. Why build LRT through 5km of empty field?

[OTSkyline]

I think for 75M we need to add stations at Gladstone, Walkley and then extend it and maybe add 1 station at Blossom Park and 1 station at the Airport. That's it.. No need to extend further south.

Also, I dont understand why councillors don't want to start the extensions because it will "be too busy or congested". Isn't that the point? To have a lot of people using public transit? If you don't then what's the solution? Having them take the bus and curse OR put more cars on the roads (which are all under construction and congested anyways)... Makes no sense.

Also, if it's already "too congested" now how do we think we will be able to accomodate new people when the City of Ottawa if obviously growing and working on intensification?

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Currently OC Transpo uses APCs (Automated Passenger Counters) mounded in buses and the O-Trains to get passengers counts on a per stop, per run, or per route basis. These counts are used in route planning; for example, to add additional buses onto a busy route or to determine if a route is not justified. This data already exists and covers ALL riders, not just the sub-set of passengers who use a PRESTO card. (As far as I know, the data is not available to the general public; although it would be interesting if OC Transpo decided to put it on the Web.)

A problem with the current system is that there is no way to tell, short of actually watching people, where a passenger boarding at, say, Hurdman Station came from. Was he a ‘walk-up’, or did she transfer from another bus; and if so, which bus? There are certainly ways of estimating, or guessing, that most of the people who left one bus would be a portion of the people who boarded another, but without directly observing them it is not a sure-thing. Without the whole-route information of each rider, it is difficult to say for sure that the people who alit from their bus on Rideau Street are the same people who boarded buses at the Mackenzie Station to go to Tunney’s Pasture. Thus creating ‘whole trip’ (or transfer-less) routes is a bit of a guessing game.

One method used to help plan more complete routes is Origin-Destination Surveys. Unfortunately, these surveys are voluntary and few riders take the time to complete them.

The PRESTO card provides an opportunity to gather Origin-Destination information on an on-going basis. If OC Transpo can get all PRESTO card users to ‘tap’ their cards when boarding, then those riders would leave a trail which spans transfers. The origin of the journey is easy to discern because it is the first ‘tap’ of the trip. The destination would be determined by the first ‘tap’ of the return trip, since there is no requirement to ‘tap’ when leaving a bus. (Most people will go to a location and later leave that location without doing much walking in between.) With the PRESTO card information, OC Transpo should be able to divine complete Origin-Destination information from many riders and better tailor the system to their needs.

Unfortunately, there are limitations to collecting data from the PRESTO card use. For one thing, a large number of riders will not have the PRESTO card; students will, for the foreseeable future, be using a (non-smart) student card, which can’t be tracked. Also, as described at the last Transit Commission meeting, OC Transpo would like ePass users to ‘Tap’ their PRESTO card, but they are not being forced to do so. Once the information gets out that ePass holders don’t need to ‘Tap’ it is likely that fewer people will do so if boarding by the rear doors. Seniors are being told NOT to ‘Tap’ their PRESTO card on Wednesdays, so that data will not be collected either.

And then there is the significant portion of passengers who currently ride the bus using cash or tickets to pay their fare. The idea is that some of the ticket users will switch to using a PRESTO card with an ePurse. Unfortunately, the remainder will switch to using cash, which will provide no full-route data. (In the past, OC Transpo tried the idea of collecting transfers and issuing new ones at each transfer. This did provide some information across a single transfer, but could not identify a start or end location, nor could it track a trip across multiple transfers. Also, all of the transfer information had to be manually input for evaluation and the transfer time-limit on a trip could not be enforced.)

Tickets were to be phased out with the introduction of the PRESTO card, but there was concern about the need for social groups to provide ‘free’ rides for their customers. (Currently they can hand out tickets, which in many cases are provided free by OC Transpo.) Not only was there the additional cost of $6.00 per PRESTO card, but the funds in an ePurse can be refunded upon request (less a service fee). Because of the technology involved, smart cards will probably not be cheap enough to be handed out free for single use, non-refundable, applications.

Although the PRESTO card readers installed on the buses and at the O-Train stations could have included an optional bar-code reader, this was not ordered by OC Transpo. Thus the option of replacing tickets with cheap bar-code tickets (which could also have been sold in vending machines or displayed on cell phones) is not possible. Until some other form of inexpensive alternative for tickets becomes available, tickets will remain; and I believe that this will be for a long while.

On getting rid of tickets.

They do not necessarily need barcode readers. Montreal (STM) issues a cheap paper card that you tap for occasional users like tourists. I got one a few weeks back when I bought there weekend pass deal (when I visited for the weekend). There regular card is $6 like presto so I was expecting to have to pay $18 instead of $12, but figured I would just keep the card at home for repeat trips. The guy at the subway asked for $12 and I said I need the card too, and he looked at me puzzled and said, "yah it's $12". I paid the $12, and told me to tap it, not insert it and to try not to bend it too much. I kept the paper card at the end of the weekend as a monument to stupidity of the Presto system.

The bigger issue they were hitting was what to do about Paratranspo. The buses are straightforward enough: install reader (though they have not). The bigger problem is they use alot of taxi's. This becomes something of an issue.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I have a feeling that 75 million spent on buses in the core would serve significantly more people. Why build LRT through 5km of empty field?

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't need additional buses in the core if the people in the suburbs can't get there. The article was quite self explanatory. It very clearly indicates that they don't want to build the O-Train extension because they expect too many people to use it. This is very distressing that our planning is gotten so far behind that we aren't able to accomodate increased ridership that will naturally occur if we improve service to clearly underserved parts of the city. There are hundreds of new homes being built in Riverside South and Findlay Creek as I write this. A whole new area south of Earl Armstrong Road is being built. In Findlay Creek, a whole new section east of Bank Street is being built. If we don't address transit needs, we will have to spend a whole lot more than $75 million for road expansion. We already know, that a number of road expansion projects had to be advanced already because of our failure to build the N-S project. And this does not consider the Barrhaven side of the project where the population growth has been even higher.

Furthermore, I read some of the comments at city council at the last meeting concerning transit and falling ridership. It doesn't take a fool to understand that with employment moving away from downtown, and a stagnant transit system, you are going see ridership fall. There is absolutely no innovation taking place in advance of the opening of the Confederation Line, 5 years from now. If they really are interested in ridership growth, they need to better consider the needs of growth areas, and new employment patterns. Our current plans fail on these accounts miserably.

So, how can I express my alarm in seeing the 2031 date for even a modest extension? That was not the original TMP plan. Furthermore, the last I saw was that even the Bowesville leg was to be converted to a busway and the O-Train extension beyond Leitrim has also been abandoned.

I think city council is going to be in for a rude awakening when the success of the Confederation Line is not as explosive as the experts have claimed. After all, as the one person indicated in the article, if it takes 2 hours by transit and 20 minutes by car, the choice is obvious. This is exactly my personal experience.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I think for 75M we need to add stations at Gladstone, Walkley and then extend it and maybe add 1 station at Blossom Park and 1 station at the Airport. That's it.. No need to extend further south.

Also, I dont understand why councillors don't want to start the extensions because it will "be too busy or congested". Isn't that the point? To have a lot of people using public transit? If you don't then what's the solution? Having them take the bus and curse OR put more cars on the roads (which are all under construction and congested anyways)... Makes no sense.

Also, if it's already "too congested" now how do we think we will be able to accomodate new people when the City of Ottawa if obviously growing and working on intensification?

There is no need for a station in Blossom Park as it would be located in the bush. I would rather see improvements made to local bus routes. As far as no extension beyond the airport, exactly how do you plan to serve the growing communities being built there today, yet alone in the future? How about a new north-south Queensway instead? The traffic demand is coming.

It is becoming clear that an O-Train extension beyond Greenboro is going to require electrification first. We are already doubling frequency and that is presumed not enough according to the planners. So, the improvements that were suggested in 2006 are going to be required at some point, and another massive shutdown of the O-Train is on the horizon.

[S-Man]

Take a drive around the edges of Riverside South or Findlay Creek and be amazed - and alarmed!

Frankly, the thought of getting downtown from one of these places now is horrifying. But, being able to take a quick local trip to an O-Train station would actually make the situation so much better.

Right now (and unlike Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans) transit from those two burbs is ridiculous to the point of being unusable.

Was once at the Greenboro station and was approached several times by panicky-looking people asking if I had seen the one and only milk-run bus that goes to Findlay Creek. If they had missed it, I'm not sure how long they'd have to wait to get another.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Take a drive around the edges of Riverside South or Findlay Creek and be amazed - and alarmed!

Frankly, the thought of getting downtown from one of these places now is horrifying. But, being able to take a quick local trip to an O-Train station would actually make the situation so much better.

Right now (and unlike Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans) transit from those two burbs is ridiculous to the point of being unusable.

Was once at the Greenboro station and was approached several times by panicky-looking people asking if I had seen the one and only milk-run bus that goes to Findlay Creek. If they had missed it, I'm not sure how long they'd have to wait to get another.

What I have never understood, is why they don't just give these two suburbs some half decent busing. Every other suburb gets by at the moment with busing and it certainly would cost much less to implement. They could even do expresses buses at rush hour.

I want to see rail expanded everywhere, but it obviously needs to be a gradual thing - primarily due to cost.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

What I have never understood, is why they don't just give these two suburbs some half decent busing. Every other suburb gets by at the moment with busing and it certainly would cost much less to implement. They could even do expresses buses at rush hour.

I want to see rail expanded everywhere, but it obviously needs to be a gradual thing - primarily due to cost.

First of all, the whole point of the N-S plan, was because the cost was going to be low in relation to what it was going to accomplish. Most of the costs were to rebuild the existing O-Train route in the central part of the city. I would not be surprised if the cost of building rail to the southern suburbs was quite competitive with building a new Transitway. Remember $880 million was building from downtown to Barrhaven Town Centre. To go from Baseline to Blair is going to be at least $3 billion. I realize that includes the tunnel but my point was bang for the buck.

The issue with existing transit service is because the existing road network does not facilitate fast service. The bus route from Riverside South had to be redirected east of the airport because the more direct route west of the airport was too congested. On top of that are the current budget constraints that resulted in service cuts two years ago. Based on the current budget, these neighbourhoods get low priority. The chicken and egg theory. Without buses, there is little demand and with little demand, there are no buses. I commented about the lack of transit priority on Bank Street expansion plans around Findlay Creek and the comment I got back is that there is little transit demand. Of course not, when the service is so lousy. Another reason for the bad service is the amount of money being spent (by debt) on the Confederation Line. We cannot invest in service in growth areas such as this with the impending $3 billion expenditure.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't need additional buses in the core if the people in the suburbs can't get there. The article was quite self explanatory. It very clearly indicates that they don't want to build the O-Train extension because they expect too many people to use it. This is very distressing that our planning is gotten so far behind that we aren't able to accomodate increased ridership that will naturally occur if we improve service to clearly underserved parts of the city. There are hundreds of new homes being built in Riverside South and Findlay Creek as I write this. A whole new area south of Earl Armstrong Road is being built. In Findlay Creek, a whole new section east of Bank Street is being built. If we don't address transit needs, we will have to spend a whole lot more than $75 million for road expansion. We already know, that a number of road expansion projects had to be advanced already because of our failure to build the N-S project. And this does not consider the Barrhaven side of the project where the population growth has been even higher.

Furthermore, I read some of the comments at city council at the last meeting concerning transit and falling ridership. It doesn't take a fool to understand that with employment moving away from downtown, and a stagnant transit system, you are going see ridership fall. There is absolutely no innovation taking place in advance of the opening of the Confederation Line, 5 years from now. If they really are interested in ridership growth, they need to better consider the needs of growth areas, and new employment patterns. Our current plans fail on these accounts miserably.

So, how can I express my alarm in seeing the 2031 date for even a modest extension? That was not the original TMP plan. Furthermore, the last I saw was that even the Bowesville leg was to be converted to a busway and the O-Train extension beyond Leitrim has also been abandoned.

I think city council is going to be in for a rude awakening when the success of the Confederation Line is not as explosive as the experts have claimed. After all, as the one person indicated in the article, if it takes 2 hours by transit and 20 minutes by car, the choice is obvious. This is exactly my personal experience.

From what I understood most of the increase in ridershipp would be from extending to the Airport. Maybe I just misunderstood that bit. However as for serving the suburbs, that merely further promotes suburban growth. Ottawa has lots of land within the greenbelt that needs intensification (or even just simple development), and an improved urban transit system would probably do far more to imrpove transit use than expanding everything further and further into the suburbs. The price of serving the suburbs better than downtown is clear ticket price. It's $3 cash for an adult in Toronto, $3.40 in Ottawa, $2.55 in Hamilton, and $3 in Montreal (if I'm reading that right), of the three cities I've used transit at (Toronto, Hamilton, and Ottawa) Ottawa has the least reliable service and any bus downtown is frequently overcrowded. So Ottawa costs the most, for the worst service, and seems to have the greatest suburban focus already.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

From what I understood most of the increase in ridershipp would be from extending to the Airport. Maybe I just misunderstood that bit. However as for serving the suburbs, that merely further promotes suburban growth. Ottawa has lots of land within the greenbelt that needs intensification (or even just simple development), and an improved urban transit system would probably do far more to imrpove transit use than expanding everything further and further into the suburbs. The price of serving the suburbs better than downtown is clear ticket price. It's $3 cash for an adult in Toronto, $3.40 in Ottawa, $2.55 in Hamilton, and $3 in Montreal (if I'm reading that right), of the three cities I've used transit at (Toronto, Hamilton, and Ottawa) Ottawa has the least reliable service and any bus downtown is frequently overcrowded. So Ottawa costs the most, for the worst service, and seems to have the greatest suburban focus already.

No, the airport does not generate a lot of ridership. Most of the ridership in the south end comes from local neighbourhoods. The O-Train extension that they don't want to build is to the south of the airport. This is where the excessive demand would come from.

As far as not encouraging sprawl, intensification will never be the full answer. Not everybody wants to live in a downtown condo or a quadplex or whatever. This is reality. Sure, I am all for intensification but it isn't going to address all the housing needs of a growing city. So really the choice is to build rapid transit or build roads? Which choice do you think will actually create more sprawl? And while we don't want to serve south of the airport, we continue to build more and more homes in Stittsville and Cumberland instead, which is much further away from downtown. Those even longer transit trips are actually costing us the most.

[S-Man]

The sprawl happening right now in the south (and every other burb) is just the result of an expanded urban boundary and community plans approved years ago. They will continue to grow out to that boundary. Intensification doesn't really come into this.

This year especially, Riverside South and Findlay Creek really started to expand beyond its initial boundaries. Demand for transit will really start to ramp up. Even waiting five years for an extension will be an ugly situation.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No, the airport does not generate a lot of ridership. Most of the ridership in the south end comes from local neighbourhoods. The O-Train extension that they don't want to build is to the south of the airport. This is where the excessive demand would come from.

I'll admit that was a misinterpretation (although it leaves me suspicious of their numbers, almost everyone I've talked to wishes that the O-train went to the airport).

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As far as not encouraging sprawl, intensification will never be the full answer. Not everybody wants to live in a downtown condo or a quadplex or whatever. This is reality. Sure, I am all for intensification but it isn't going to address all the housing needs of a growing city.

Lots of people want to live in a 40 room mansion with 100 acres of property but they can't. The reality of what's feasible to build is far more important than the reality of what people want. You can get people to compromise, you can't do the same with logistics. Either focus on intensifying now, or be caught unprepared as energy costs grow ever higher.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So really the choice is to build rapid transit or build roads? Which choice do you think will actually create more sprawl?

I actually thinking that building transit out there will create more sprawl than roads. Gas prices are going up every day, so people will want to drive less and less, but if someone is only willing to spend X money on gas, and you build a transit line to the suburb they can now live as far from that station as X gas money can get them. No transit line and they can't live as far away. In the near future the price of gas will be much more of a limiter than the travel time.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It very clearly indicates that they don't want to build the O-Train extension because they expect too many people to use it.

It's kind of sad, isn't it? Basically they expect all the additional capacity they will be adding by doubling the frequency will be entirely eaten up by existing riders diverting from buses to the O-Train to avoid the Hurdman station closure.

The fact that ridership is stagnating is almost a blessing in disguise for the transit planners, because they are going to have a hard enough time accommodating existing riders when the east Transitway shuts down for LRT conversion.

But, as I said when I posted the article, there is no reason that an O-Train extension to the south cannot open the same day as the Confederation line, when all the disruption is over. And we should start planning for that now. Presumably, existing riders from the south will divert back to the Transitway and transfer to the Confederation line at Hurdman, which will free up capacity on the O-Train for expansion.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Beedok

It's $3 cash for an adult in Toronto, $3.40 in Ottawa, $2.55 in Hamilton, and $3 in Montreal. So Ottawa costs the most, for the worst service, and seems to have the greatest suburban focus already.

Who cares what the cash fare is when practically nobody pays cash? Presto fare is $2.72 and tickets are $3, right in line with the other systems you listed.

While I do think we need to expand our transit system, I'm not going to dump on OC too much because the ridership per capita in Ottawa (3rd highest in Canada) shows that they are doing something right.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

All I got from that article was "Wah, difficulties and challenges! We'd rather not face them, so we're going to inconvenience more citizens who will turn to non-environmentally-friendly options. Because the ones we give them are crap. Because we're timid."

We'll have problems and congestion with an O-Train expansion right now! Better not build it! Never mind the fact that it would cost little to nothing in the grand scheme of things, would increase public transit ridership, keep more cars off the road (which helps ease our traffic problems, as well as helping the environment somewhat), and brings cost-effective Rapid Transit to a far flung suburb that is poorly served by public transit in general. But no, because we might face problems and challenges, it is therefore not worth it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I'll admit that was a misinterpretation (although it leaves me suspicious of their numbers, almost everyone I've talked to wishes that the O-train went to the airport).


Lots of people want to live in a 40 room mansion with 100 acres of property but they can't. The reality of what's feasible to build is far more important than the reality of what people want. You can get people to compromise, you can't do the same with logistics. Either focus on intensifying now, or be caught unprepared as energy costs grow ever higher.


I actually thinking that building transit out there will create more sprawl than roads. Gas prices are going up every day, so people will want to drive less and less, but if someone is only willing to spend X money on gas, and you build a transit line to the suburb they can now live as far from that station as X gas money can get them. No transit line and they can't live as far away. In the near future the price of gas will be much more of a limiter than the travel time.

The reality is that intensification (gentrification) is pushing up the cost of housing in transit friendly neighbourhoods. It is pushing low income families further and further away from the centre of the city and then we choose not to supply decent transit in those lower cost housing areas? Intensification means for the most part high income housing as there is little affordable housing being built in those situations. Just look at the McMansions that are replacing modest bungalows in many older neighbourhoods. There is nothing comparable in the suburbs unless you getting outside the urban boundary.

As far as I can see, we still live in a democratic country. We get to chose what kind of housing that we live in, of course, based on what we can afford. In most cases, the cheaper choice is not downtown. The same applies to taxes, whether it is fair or not.

As far as gas, if you live in the suburbs as I have all my life, a car is pretty well a necessity for almost everything. Those convoluted bus routes that run every half hour or hourly (or less) are not going to be competitive with a car when it only takes 5 minutes to get to the shopping centre by car. The cost of gas has not been going up faster than inflation and therefore, unless we see a shocking increase in the price of gas in the next year, don't expect people in the suburbs to switch over to the current lousy transit service except if they have to commute downtown.

So sure, don't build rapid transit and guess what, I have no intension of moving downtown and pay $750,000 for less space and to commute to my job in the suburbs where I still have to deal with lousy transit service. Your assumptions are false.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

It's kind of sad, isn't it? Basically they expect all the additional capacity they will be adding by doubling the frequency will be entirely eaten up by existing riders diverting from buses to the O-Train to avoid the Hurdman station closure.

The fact that ridership is stagnating is almost a blessing in disguise for the transit planners, because they are going to have a hard enough time accommodating existing riders when the east Transitway shuts down for LRT conversion.

But, as I said when I posted the article, there is no reason that an O-Train extension to the south cannot open the same day as the Confederation line, when all the disruption is over. And we should start planning for that now. Presumably, existing riders from the south will divert back to the Transitway and transfer to the Confederation line at Hurdman, which will free up capacity on the O-Train for expansion.

For those who currently have direct bus service downtown in the southend, and most areas do have this service, I am not sure what the incentive is to transfer to the O-Train with the closure of Hurdman Station. I assume the bus routes will continue to run downtown during the construction period via the Queensway and Nicholas Street. If not, don't expect ridership to stagnate, but to go down.