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  #141  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 5:49 AM
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Just because I can because the topic has strayed, I have to just say that Jamaica's GDP per capita jumped recently to 7,700(PPP) putting it ahead of several European countries and near the top third in the world. Nominal numbers are similarly high.

Jamaica GDP per capita rank in US dollars(World Bank)(nominal): 77
China: 107
Macedonia: 89
Iran: 87
Georgia(country): 110
Columbia: 93
Bosnia Herzegovina: 86

The economy of Jamaica is also larger than 79 nations most of which are much larger.

The World Bank has summarily reclassified Jamaica as upper middle income and cut the aid :sad face:

This is not an attack against any of those countries! This is pure Jamaica boosting!
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Last edited by dante2308; Jul 8, 2008 at 6:35 AM.
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 5:54 AM
Andrea Andrea is offline
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Originally Posted by Tombstoner View Post
I think you need to "stick up" for a community college only when someone is putting it down.
Sorry, T., I misunderstood. I thought y'all were sort of saying the upper level there is about the same as the bottom level over here. I guess I feel a little defensive about going the community college route sometimes -- my bad.
     
     
  #143  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner View Post
You cant blame the graduates for leaving their countries, and you cant blame the Western countries for accepting them; however, western countries should recognize the huge financial subsidy that African countries are GIVING to western countries
Hmmm. I understand what you're saying*, but 1) Western aid and bilateral university cooperative agreements are what make post-secondary education possible in many parts of Africa, and 2) foreign worker remittances from the West are a HUGE contributer to developing world economies (some countries would collapse without them). If anything, you can say that the West has basically out-sourced some key professional functions to countries in Africa and Asia. I don't go to bed at night worried that we are taking advantage of African governments' largesse.

Last edited by Tombstoner; Jul 8, 2008 at 12:23 PM. Reason: * the brain drain is a huge problem for Africa
     
     
  #144  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrea View Post
Sorry, T., I misunderstood. I thought y'all were sort of saying the upper level there is about the same as the bottom level over here. I guess I feel a little defensive about going the community college route sometimes -- my bad.
I think there are lots of needs that community colleges fill brilliantly. I don't think we can do without them any more than we can do without 4-year colleges, but I think they fill different economic/academic needs. I took a lot of required courses at community college before transfering the credit to a university and finishing my degree in 3 years; I was working two jobs and couldn't have afforded 4 years of university. That's just another example of why people might choose to go to community college, but there are many others and associate degrees often provide the ideal training for many professions.
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by testarossa50 View Post
How does this compare to African heads of state and economic ministers studying at Yale?

Also, strictly economically speaking this implies that African countries are investing far too much in secondary education (and presumably far too little in primary education & infrastructure).

How did you arrive at $4bn?
We should move this out of the Atlanta community Forum......

You must be a conservative!!
Just in case you havent been reading the Political column in this Atlanta forum, I posted what researchers found about how conservative minds work. They dont like or want to hear facts that dont fit their rigid concepts.

I actually got the info when I was researching income and educational level of Africans in the USA. (read some of the results in posts previously).

The cost is probably even higher, when the lifetime productivity of the over 30% of the educated class leaving their country. And the benefit is even higher for the western countries if you calculate the cost of education from kindergarten to university PLUS a lifetime of productivity!!

Brain drain costs Africa billions
BBC NEWS

A new report says Africa has lost a third of its skilled professionals in recent decades and it is costing the continent $4b dollars a year to replace them.
The report, by the Pollution Research Group at Natal University in South Africa, says the trend, known as brain-drain, has strangled growth on the continent. It says it has also nurtured poverty and delayed economic development. The report was presented to an African preparatory conference for next year's World Summit on Sustainable Development.
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  #146  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 12:29 PM
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Brain Drain is clearly De Facto subsidy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstoner View Post
Hmmm. I understand what you're saying*, but ............ I don't go to bed at night worried that we are taking advantage of African governments' largesse.
It has nothing to do with AFrican governments' largesse. They dont intend their best educated to leave the country! These people are taking economic oppurtunity (just as my grandfather, with a PhD left Germany in 1951 for economic reasons & my father left Germany with a PhD in 1957. Both are clearly subsidies to the USA from Germany and I am sure you wouldnt argue with that!) I cant imagine Germany recovering from WWII if 30% of its educated class left the country. (I guess for Germany that would be 30% of the population...... )

The same is happening in Africa. It is a major problem for the continent when 30% of the educated class leave!!

Americans, and some Europeans, especially conservatives, never seem to recognize this huge (unitentional) subsidy to western countries.
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  #147  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2008, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner View Post
It has nothing to do with AFrican governments' largesse. They dont intend their best educated to leave the country! These people are taking economic oppurtunity (just as my grandfather, with a PhD left Germany in 1951 for economic reasons & my father left Germany with a PhD in 1957. Both are clearly subsidies to the USA from Germany and I am sure you wouldnt argue with that!) I cant imagine Germany recovering from WWII if 30% of its educated class left the country. (I guess for Germany that would be 30% of the population...... )

The same is happening in Africa. It is a major problem for the continent when 30% of the educated class leave!!

Americans, and some Europeans, especially conservatives, never seem to recognize this huge (unitentional) subsidy to western countries.
I'm not sure it makes sense to speak of "subsidies." I see your point that people educated at the expense of one country going off to use that expertise in another country means that the first country has "lost" that expediture, but I think that has to be put in a larger context. Again, I raise two (what I think are valid) points that suggest that what you are calling a "subsidy" might be what some people would call an "investment" (e.g., there would be mass starvation in Zimbabwe if it's educated population weren't sending back remittances every month; in Malawi a big percentage of secondary schools are directly funded by bilateral donors [I don't have the figure at hand, but I seem to recall it is over 50%, and most of these people are staying in Malawi--maybe not the best and brightest, but the general educational level is being raised]). Personally, I think either term (subsidy or investment) obscures more than it reveals.
Believe me, I know about the problem of finding qualified people in Africa (over the past few years I have had to staff projects in Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Zambia, Ghana, Senegal and Mozambique), so I appreciate the impact of the brain drain. But I also appreciate that globalization has not produced clear-cut winners and losers--with all of the aid and parastatal assistance being given by the West it's hard to say who is (ultimately) subsizing whom. When you say "Africa is subsidizing the West" I understand the sentiment, but I don't find it very accurate.
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2008, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner View Post
We should move this out of the Atlanta community Forum......

You must be a conservative!!
Just in case you havent been reading the Political column in this Atlanta forum, I posted what researchers found about how conservative minds work. They dont like or want to hear facts that dont fit their rigid concepts.

I actually got the info when I was researching income and educational level of Africans in the USA. (read some of the results in posts previously).

The cost is probably even higher, when the lifetime productivity of the over 30% of the educated class leaving their country. And the benefit is even higher for the western countries if you calculate the cost of education from kindergarten to university PLUS a lifetime of productivity!!

Brain drain costs Africa billions
BBC NEWS

A new report says Africa has lost a third of its skilled professionals in recent decades and it is costing the continent $4b dollars a year to replace them.
The report, by the Pollution Research Group at Natal University in South Africa, says the trend, known as brain-drain, has strangled growth on the continent. It says it has also nurtured poverty and delayed economic development. The report was presented to an African preparatory conference for next year's World Summit on Sustainable Development.
I'm sorry my post was interpreted as attacking your assertion. I just wanted more information.
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2008, 2:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstoner View Post
I'm not sure it makes sense to speak of "subsidies." I see your point that people educated at the expense of one country going off to use that expertise in another country means that the first country has "lost" that expediture, but I think that has to be put in a larger context. Again, I raise two (what I think are valid) points that suggest that what you are calling a "subsidy" might be what some people would call an "investment" (e.g., there would be mass starvation in Zimbabwe if it's educated population weren't sending back remittances every month; in Malawi a big percentage of secondary schools are directly funded by bilateral donors [I don't have the figure at hand, but I seem to recall it is over 50%, and most of these people are staying in Malawi--maybe not the best and brightest, but the general educational level is being raised]). Personally, I think either term (subsidy or investment) obscures more than it reveals.
Believe me, I know about the problem of finding qualified people in Africa (over the past few years I have had to staff projects in Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Zambia, Ghana, Senegal and Mozambique), so I appreciate the impact of the brain drain. But I also appreciate that globalization has not produced clear-cut winners and losers--with all of the aid and parastatal assistance being given by the West it's hard to say who is (ultimately) subsizing whom. When you say "Africa is subsidizing the West" I understand the sentiment, but I don't find it very accurate.
Of course Africa is subsidizing the West, although quite unintentionally from all three parties involved (the recipient, the donor, and the people involved). The numbers speak for themselves. For some reason, it is difficult for Westerners to accept these kinds of statistics.......

There is no question that Western countries gain billions from the mass immigration of 30% of the educated class of Africa, especially the UK. I am not saying this is a negative or a positive, I am only saying that Western countries should recognize the HUGE subsidies that African nations are giving Western countries........just pointing out the facts!

I also never argued that Western countries have not subsidized African countries in other positive ways (and hurt African countries in other ways), and who has a net gain......I didnt make a comment on that or research it, I only am making a comment of the effect of the Brain Drain on Africa and the West, and the fact that it should be recognized as a significant factor in the economic development of Africa. And of course immigrants often send money back to their home countries for the first few years of immigration, which may help African countries offset the loses, at least in disposable income.
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  #150  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2008, 7:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner View Post
Of course Africa is subsidizing the West, although quite unintentionally from all three parties involved (the recipient, the donor, and the people involved). The numbers speak for themselves. For some reason, it is difficult for Westerners to accept these kinds of statistics.......
As a "Westerner" I don't have a hard time understanding these kinds of statistics. If you don't accept my experience and opinion, fine, but please don't be so condescending. I may not be as smart as you, or educated as you, or experienced as you, but I know a little something about this topic.

(And by the way, the numbers DO NOT "speak for themselves." We humans use "the numbers" in a way to support our arguments. If someone wanted to refute you, they could easily do so using "the numbers"--different numbers, different methodology, different sources, but every bit as solid as your numbers. Please don't act like you have a hotline to God.)
     
     
  #151  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2008, 4:44 PM
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I guess it's near official - Atlanta has not only surpassed it's pre-1970 population but has blown out even last year's Census estimate. The 2007 population estimate for Atlanta is 519,145!

http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/SUB-EST2007-4.html
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  #152  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2008, 5:44 PM
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Wow, that's cool! And not only is it a new high, it looks like we've added 103,000 new residents just since 2000!
     
     
  #153  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2008, 8:52 PM
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Here's an interesting article the demographic changes in the city and the suburbs.

Atlanta and the Urban Future - Governing.com


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If any one thing is clear, it's that the politics of metropolitan Atlanta has entered an extraordinarily fluid phase, in which this year's given can turn into next year's outdated assumption. Some 500 people a day are moving to the metro Atlanta region. The city itself will continue to gentrify as wealthier people settle there and poorer ones are forced to the suburbs. The suburbs will continue to diversify in pretty much every way imaginable. Sam Zamarripa, the former state senator, says it calls to mind a video art installation he saw recently, one that showed a group of black kids playing basketball, while on the same court Hispanic kids played soccer. "That's what's going on here," he says. "There are multiple games being played on the same stage, with different rules, different winners and losers, different ways of scoring and different uniforms." How it will all end up is anyone's guess.
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
Here's an interesting article the demographic changes in the city and the suburbs.

Atlanta and the Urban Future - Governing.com
Thanks for posting this link! Very interesting. Did you notice the story about the two old-fourth-ward houses where the owners built a pool in the shared backyard and fenced it off? If one of them were to sell, how would that work? I guess a letter attached to the title or something?
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  #155  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 5:18 PM
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Sorry about the second post

Hey forumers. Sorry that I am posting this on a second forum page, but I'm in need of some serious help, quickly.

My bosses are planning a trip to Atlanta next week to visit mixed use lifetyle centers. I have been able to locate Atlantic Station and Glenwood Park as two developments that are completed or are at least partially open.

Could any of you provide me a list of those types of developments in an surround Atlanta, within an hour to an hour and a half drive?

Thanks again.
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
Hey forumers. Sorry that I am posting this on a second forum page, but I'm in need of some serious help, quickly.

My bosses are planning a trip to Atlanta next week to visit mixed use lifetyle centers. I have been able to locate Atlantic Station and Glenwood Park as two developments that are completed or are at least partially open.

Could any of you provide me a list of those types of developments in an surround Atlanta, within an hour to an hour and a half drive?

Thanks again.
Here are a few suggestions:

Lindbergh Center - re-development around the Lindbergh MARTA Station and the less than impressive Sembler development across the street.

Edgewood Retail District - Sembler's retail development South of Little Five Points - not the best urbanism.

Town Brookhaven - Sembler's newest development - under construction.

Vickery - a new urbanist development in Forsyth county - about 45 minutes up GA 400.

Serenbe - a boutique new urbanist development in Palmetto, 45 minutes South of dowtown.

There are also a dozen or more of the generic retail lifestyle centers like Cousin's "Avenues" concepts. But, I would not classify them as mixed-use.
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2008, 6:53 PM
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Allen Plaza-USD 2.0 billion development in downtown Atlanta that features proximity to mass transit; hotels; residential ( rental and condo); and,comercial and cultural components as well.
     
     
  #158  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2008, 4:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
Hey forumers. Sorry that I am posting this on a second forum page, but I'm in need of some serious help, quickly.

My bosses are planning a trip to Atlanta next week to visit mixed use lifetyle centers. I have been able to locate Atlantic Station and Glenwood Park as two developments that are completed or are at least partially open.

Could any of you provide me a list of those types of developments in an surround Atlanta, within an hour to an hour and a half drive?

Thanks again.
You might be interested in some of the development around Inman Park. The stretch of Highland from from Elizabeth to Glen Iris was mostly developed in the last 5 years and fits very well with existing buildings and has added a bunch of residents to the neighborhood.

Here's an old satellite image of the area

Just south of there, development along DeKalb Ave is pretty cool.
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  #159  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Any thoughts on this graphic

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  #160  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2008, 2:35 PM
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Why is per capita income growth so much lower in the metro Atlanta region than in metros like DC, Pittsburgh and Houston? Are our burbs just that much worse than theirs?
     
     
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