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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightball View Post
But that's because the antis aren't interested in putting up photos of good ones. There are tons of well done ones all over the city such as:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73028294@N00/13359274314/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73028294@N00/13358548525/
Unobtrusive additions like these should be permitted uniformly. But I don't think these are the kinds of 'pop-ups' that are in contention. The key is to ensure as much of the unobtrusive new additions as possible while finding an effective way to discourage the sore-thumb stuff like we've seen in this thread.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK Barcelona and Madrid are world cities, but Dublin? Dublin is smaller than DC, lower density than DC, less diverse than DC, and even more of a low-rise city than DC. Dublin is lovely, but I can't think of a single way it's more of a world city than DC, except for simple europhilia.

For the sake of not turning this into a versus thread, I'll not argue about it further. And of course, DC has plenty of room for improvement. But if the prime example of a world class city is Dublin, then what's DC lacking?
According to Wikipedia, Dublin has a little higher density than DC.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 7:35 PM
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Not to get to far off track here. But, I think Dublin is a pretty good urban comparison point for DC. Overall, the DC metropolitan area is far far larger than Dublin, DC has way more office space, and is more globally prominent given its role as the US capitol/IMF/World Bank. But, from a city living perspective, I think DC and Dublin are pretty similar. Both smallish, mid-density cities. I do have to admit, on the whole Dublin seems to have a smaller, but more organic, mixed-use city center. DC's center basically feels like a massive 9-5 office district (save 2-3 blocks around the Verizon Center). But, perhaps DC makes up for it with several neighborhood clusters (Georgetown, Dupont, 14th Street, Adams-Morgan, etc). Plus, DC has some semi-urban suburban clusters (Arlington, Bethesda, Silver Spring, Alexandria)
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 7:38 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
According to Wikipedia, Dublin has a little higher density than DC.
I wonder how much of that has to do with more families living in Dublin, however?

I mean, if the average household size is larger, population density will be higher even if structural density is pretty much identical.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 11:47 PM
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del - stupid post, sorry

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:44 AM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 11:50 PM
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del - worthless post.

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:44 AM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I wonder how much of that has to do with more families living in Dublin, however?

I mean, if the average household size is larger, population density will be higher even if structural density is pretty much identical.
Only if the housing units are the same size, which is not necessarily the case if (ex Manhattan has lots of small apartments vs Chicago I think has bigger apartments and SFHs). Although the housing units might be of similar size for Dublin vs DC (maybe even smaller for Dublin?).
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
Unobtrusive additions like these should be permitted uniformly.
They are. The first one I was involved with was in a historic district, it was like those examples (which is in the historic guidelines for additions), anyway it was approved without any hassle.

Aside from the fact that most areas aren't under any historic review, the problem is that with your typical developer the mantra is "maximize the square footage and minimize the construction cost". Stepping back and having some detailing generally costs more and adds less.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 7:28 PM
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DC is awesome.

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:43 AM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Dublin feels far denser than DC. It feels much bigger downtown than DC does, not in terms of building mass, but as a city. There are throngs of people on the sidewalks. I reason this is because Dublin is a destination, downtown DC isn't. People from all over the Dublin metro area come into the city to shop/play and not just work. Most bus lines go through the city. DC has too much retail in the suburbs and far too little in the city to meet a critical mass. I would reckon that DC needs to rezone it's downtown and move federal and other office functions elsewhere to other areas of the city. Many of those buildings downtown could be converted to residences and retail since it's not possible to build up and space is scarce.

As for pop ups, I'm fine with it. DC is just too conservative in terms of design and some modern additions in old neighborhoods are fine as long as they are not dominating or ruining the beauty of the old streets.

I agree with you that DC is conservative in some areas related to architecture, but I don't necessarily agree with you about DC's density levels. On paper, is is less dense than Dublin, sure, but not far less dense. This likely has something to do with DC actually having taller buildings in certain areas. DC does almost double in population during the day. It's certainly not ideal that DC has a CBD that is dominated by commercial office space and not enough residential and retail spaces, but I don't think the activity level in DC should be measured by what's Downtown before and after working hours. Again, I can't help but feel as though that's a perspective that people who don't actually live in the city have.

I think the width of the streets and the setbacks in some areas contributes to the feel of less density, even though as mentioned, there does need to be more large retail and residential space.

Honestly, to me, there's not a whole lot wrong with the density levels seen around Dupont as far as residential neighborhoods go. It could be denser, sure, but I don't know if it'd contribute much in the grand scheme of things. It's really much of the eastern half of the city that's an abomination and contributes to the lower density level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Yes. Downtown Dublin can feel like a mini nyc sometime with the crowds of folks walking on the streets.

I always considered Georgetown as the real city center of DC.
And I completely disagree with this. How on earth is Georgetown the real city center?

Last edited by novawolverine; Jul 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 8:16 PM
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DC is never going to have a great downtown. The demand for office space simply overwhelms and sucks the life out of the city core.

Civic life revolves around the neighborhood commercial areas (Georgetown and Dupont/Adams-Morgan/14th street). Unfortunately, these neighborhoods are close to built out. There are a few development areas left in inner-NW, but for the most part the rowhouse side streets are the only place left. That's why I think popups are a good way to drive additional growth in areas like Dupont and Columbia Heights. They respect the architectural feel of the area, while allowing more growth in the core.

Yeah, I support additional growth in areas like Navy Yard, Waterfront, NoMa, H Street. But, these areas are off by themselves, removed from the rest of the cities action by big dead zones. They will never really be part of a seamless urban core. Plus, it not an either or proposition. DC's central core population is small relative to its MSA population. DC should both densify the existing active urban areas and build up the new ones. Dupont and Logan are still far less dense than the low rise core-neighborhoods of European capitals like Berlin, Madrid, Paris.

Last edited by jpdivola; Jul 9, 2014 at 8:36 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 10:05 PM
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yet DC+Arlington+Alexandria manages to cram 1 million people into 100 square miles, despite also being home to a massive forested park, Mall and cemetery, the entire office space of the federal government and its various branches/subcontractors, and large military bases/Pentagon.

Not to mention ~1/3 of the entire area being (very elegant and beautiful) single family home neighborhoods.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 10:18 PM
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del

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:43 AM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 10:23 PM
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Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:43 AM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 11:28 PM
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DC doesn't need to go full out midrise/highrise but it certainly could use more densification across much of the District, as well as Arlington and Alexandria and neighbouring suburbs like Silver Spring and Bethesda. I would say Columbia Heights is a decent model. Columbia Heights has quite a few mid rises and even smaller high-rises both new and old, as well as smaller 3-4 storey low rise apartments, and also still has row houses too. And it's pretty dense, certainly quite a bit denser than the average neighbourhood.

Even after accounting for parks, office space, etc... if the rest of D.C. Arlington and Alexandria were built up in a similar fashion to Columbia Heights, you could probably add another 1-2 million people. You could probably add another million to the more urban inner suburbs, and then I guess you can have some infill of more suburban areas, town centres of satellite towns, places like Tysons...

I do agree with raising heights limits in at least parts of the CBD areas too.

Last edited by memph; Jul 9, 2014 at 11:57 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 12:44 AM
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Calling Georgetown the "real center of DC" is so ridiculously off the mark that there's really no point in responding at all.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 1:06 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Calling Georgetown the "real center of DC" is so ridiculously off the mark that there's really no point in responding at all.
you're right, not worth it. i deleted all my posts, bye.

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:42 AM.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 1:20 AM
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By the way, what are the rules regarding dividing up a row house into apartments? Can you only divide into 2, or could you potentially divide it into 3 or 4? Mind you I don't know how most of these are laid out and how practical that would be. But if a lot of the people moving into D.C. are small households, it might make sense since a lot of these row houses (especially the 3-4 storey ones North of Downtown) are pretty big, around 2000-3500 sf. Or alternatively, what are the rules regarding how many room-mates can live together? In terms of affordability/gentrification, it helps if lower (or even middle) income people don't have to compete with the wealthy by paying the same amount for the same big rowhouse but instead a smaller amount for living in a portion of the row house.

Although I guess the wealthy people moving into D.C. will probably find these row houses more appealing than apartments. And if your goal is density (for sustainability, housing supply or other reasons) it's better to have a few row houses on 1/40-1/15 acre lots for the wealthy than SFHs on 1/10-1/4 acre lots. I guess you can have some of those too, but I certainly don't think you need all of them. Not even close, especially if you include those in the North/NE/SE and Arlington/Alexandria which are more modest than the ones in the west side. And even in the west side there are some SFHs similar to those you'd find in most 1940s-1960s suburbs (cape cods, colonial revivals, etc).
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 1:38 AM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
You didn't have to respond at all like that in that tone.

I said it was a subjective thing. To me it feels like a real city center, a vibrant shopping area unlike the other parts of DC that feel like office areas without much soul. You can just disagree without the rest of the stuff you posted. I equate a true city center as being usually full of busy shops and not canyons of cold office lobbies or federal functions, parks or areas of mostly restaurants. As I sad, subjective.
The thing about DC's CBD is that it's very expansive, largely due to the height limits, so yeah, I'm not surprised it dies down after five.

Ex, you look at Toronto, the Downtown (high density mixed use area) is probably about as expansive as DC's, if not more so (4-5 square miles), but the area that is dominated by office uses is only about 0.4 square miles. It's similar for San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia, even Midtown and Downtown New York (high density mixed use area is much bigger of course). Chicago might be close to 1 square mile. In DC it's about 2-3 square miles.

Given the zoning, it's not surprising it's so large. Offices are typically willing to pay more for CBD space than potential residents so they push them out. And in D.C. the CBD had to grow outwards more than in most cities where they could grow upwards more. I haven't been to D.C. yet, how does the downtown compare to the CBDs of other major American cities in terms of vibrancy? I'm most familiar with Toronto where the Financial District does have activity decline after working hours, so is D.C. is worse?
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  #60  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 1:54 AM
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Last edited by aquablue; Jul 10, 2014 at 4:42 AM.
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