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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 8:46 PM
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Hardest Places to Live in the US (NY Times)

New York Times sends courageous reporters on dangerous mission across the Hudson to investigate geographical income distribution in 'the country': cool map though.

Between the lines, the angle seems to be that rural areas are in fact poorer or harder places to live than many of the underperforming urban centers like Detroit or Flint or St. Louis.

Quote:
...The Upshot came to this conclusion by looking at six data points for each county in the United States: education (percentage of residents with at least a bachelor’s degree), median household income, unemployment rate, disability rate, life expectancy and obesity. We then averaged each county’s relative rank in these categories to create an overall ranking.

The 10 lowest counties in the country, by this ranking, include a cluster of six in the Appalachian Mountains of eastern Kentucky (Breathitt, Clay, Jackson, Lee, Leslie and Magoffin), along with four others in various parts of the rural South: Humphreys County, Miss.; East Carroll Parish, La.; Jefferson County, Ga.; and Lee County, Ark.
...
As Ms. Lowrey writes, this combination of problems is an overwhelmingly rural phenomenon. Not a single major urban county ranks in the bottom 20 percent or so on this scale, and when you do get to one — Wayne County, Mich., which includes Detroit — there are some significant differences. While Wayne County’s unemployment rate (11.7 percent) is almost as high as Clay County’s, and its life expectancy (75.1 years) and obesity rate (41.3 percent) are also similar, almost three times as many residents (20.8 percent) have at least a bachelor’s degree, and median household income ($41,504) is almost twice as high.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2014, 12:11 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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They are comparing all of Wayne County, which includes some of the wealthiest suburbs in the country. Of course median income is going to be much higher.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2014, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
They are comparing all of Wayne County, which includes some of the wealthiest suburbs in the country. Of course median income is going to be much higher.
Only one town in Wayne County would come close to ranking among the wealthiest suburbs nationally, and it's tiny (Grosse Pointe Shores). Even then it doesn't rank super-high nationally.

Wayne County generally doesn't have large concentrations of wealth. Really the only two wealth concentrations in the county are the Grosse Pointes (mostly old money) and Northville (mostly new money).

And Northville, while technically mostly Wayne County, is sort of an extension of Oakland County (straddles the county line and is an extension of the new money affluence in the western portion of Oakland County around Novi-South Lyon area).
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Old Posted Jun 28, 2014, 5:23 PM
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2014, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Only one town in Wayne County would come close to ranking among the wealthiest suburbs nationally, and it's tiny (Grosse Pointe Shores). Even then it doesn't rank super-high nationally.

Wayne County generally doesn't have large concentrations of wealth. Really the only two wealth concentrations in the county are the Grosse Pointes (mostly old money) and Northville (mostly new money).

And Northville, while technically mostly Wayne County, is sort of an extension of Oakland County (straddles the county line and is an extension of the new money affluence in the western portion of Oakland County around Novi-South Lyon area).
Nevermind that there are 21 communities in Wayne County that are above the median US income:

Code:
Grosse Pointe Shores	$129,922
Grosse Pointe		$103,867
Grosse Pointe Farms	$103,517
Grosse Pointe Park	$101,094
Northville TWP		$ 97,470
Grosse Pointe Woods	$ 87,518
Plymouth TWP		$ 86,156
Grosse Ile TWP		$ 84,812
Canton TWP		$ 81,454
Northville		$ 71,767
Livonia			$ 69,009
Gibraltar		$ 68,706
Plymouth		$ 63,875
Brownstown TWP		$ 63,308
Woodhaven		$ 60,788
Huron TWP		$ 60,123
Allen Park		$ 56,647
Trenton			$ 55,789
Sumpter TWP		$ 55,463
Garden City		$ 55,270
Rockwood		$ 54,643
UNITED STATES		$ 53,046
Collectively those communities have a population of about 460,000.

And that doesn't include areas like West Dearborn, with some 50,000 people, that would easily make the list if it were separate from East Dearborn.

I'm not saying that suburban Wayne County is the example of wealth in this country, but I guarantee there aren't too many people in any of those communities that would find it particularly difficult to live. And as difficult as it is for many within the poorest areas of the county, those 21 communities basically cancel out the extreme poverty you'll find in certain areas of the county. Which is why Wayne County overall wouldn't come close to making a "hardest places to live" list.
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Old Posted Jun 29, 2014, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
Nevermind that there are 21 communities in Wayne County that are above the median US income:
Well, yeah. "Above the median income" is a long, long way from "among the wealthiest communities in the U.S.". Obviously a county of 2 million people will have places above national norms.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2014, 7:24 PM
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And places like the Grosse Pointes, Northville, Canton, Plymouth, and Grosse Ile. are at least 50% above the national median, and among the wealthiest suburbs in the country. My implications weren't to say that x city is one of the x wealthiest suburbs in the country, but rather that these are generally high income suburbs, comparable to high income suburbs in other metropolitan areas, and essentially counter the extreme poverty in other areas of the county, signifying that the county as a whole would obviously not make a "hardest places to live" list, despite having areas that would obviously qualify.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2014, 2:10 AM
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Cool map.

Interesting how rural areas where in the 19th century people had individual homesteads and society was relatively equal have to this day been ahead of the curve on most metrics. While areas that were full of slaves and poor white tenant farmers are still behind despite having areas where agricultural sales are pretty high if you look up a map of that.
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Old Posted Jul 1, 2014, 6:33 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Cool map.

Interesting how rural areas where in the 19th century people had individual homesteads and society was relatively equal have to this day been ahead of the curve on most metrics. While areas that were full of slaves and poor white tenant farmers are still behind despite having areas where agricultural sales are pretty high if you look up a map of that.
Or in other words, in spite of what the media would have you believe...Republican regions lag the rest of the country in wealth and income and its residents continue to vote against their own self interests.

But hey! Look, there's Jesus and Obama is a Communist.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Or in other words, in spite of what the media would have you believe...Republican regions lag the rest of the country in wealth and income and its residents continue to vote against their own self interests.

But hey! Look, there's Jesus and Obama is a Communist.
Well that's oversimplifying it more than a bit.

Poor white rural areas tend to be conservative Republican, but black, Hispanic, and Native American rural areas are just as solid Democrat.

It's race, not economics.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2014, 11:26 PM
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It's race because of economics. People making money don't have time to be haters.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2014, 1:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Cool map.

Interesting how rural areas where in the 19th century people had individual homesteads and society was relatively equal have to this day been ahead of the curve on most metrics. While areas that were full of slaves and poor white tenant farmers are still behind despite having areas where agricultural sales are pretty high if you look up a map of that.
Piketty had some basic commentary on that in his book. Not much in depth, but it went to show what was at stake in the Civil War in terms of economics. Value of capital in Yankeeland in 1850 was 3.5 times that of its income. Value of capital in Dixieland in 1850 was seven to eight times that of its income, very similar to what was seen in Europe that had the failed European Spring in 1848. It was easy to purchase land, vastly reduced in value due to it being freshly conquered territory and farm it as opposed to purchasing land and then purchasing the slaves to farm that land.
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2014, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
New York Times sends courageous reporters on dangerous mission across the Hudson to investigate geographical income distribution in 'the country': cool map though.

Between the lines, the angle seems to be that rural areas are in fact poorer or harder places to live than many of the underperforming urban centers like Detroit or Flint or St. Louis.



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Those of you who live where natural vegetation is thick and where trees grow like weeds, need to see the prairie belt from the Canadian Border to Texas to get an idea of the huge rural population crash. In states like Nebraska and Kansas, particularly in their western halves, there are hundreds of towns with collapsing roofs, boarded up store fronts, and, obvious signs of blight. Go into the cities with populations greater than 5,000, and, most of their downtowns are unoccupied with what business that survives, centered in a huge Walmart just outside the city limits. Drive out into the country and the majority of surviving structures are abandoned.

The working farms that survive either look like small cities made up of grain silos, or are dream farms that can only survive by putting outside income into the farm- i.e., money loosing propositions. Many of the farmers are old, and, contrary to BS in the press, the old farmers don't have much energy anymore. Survival is contracted out to a few young entrepreneurs that own $1 million or more in fertilizer spraying equipment, combines, tractors etc., that charge a flat rate per bushel. When the price goes up everybody is happy, when the price per bushel drops only the young entrepreneur makes any money. Of course, the old farmer borrows more money, and, flirts with going bankruptcy for the "n" time.

In order to see this in your area (even with the trees), get off the interstates. The old US highway system has roads that show the Country without the retail, food, and, lodging that the interstates bring. Much of it looks like "rural" Detroit, with huge areas planted in mono crop agriculture surrounding abandoned barns and farm houses.
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2014, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Those of you who live where natural vegetation is thick and where trees grow like weeds, need to see the prairie belt from the Canadian Border to Texas to get an idea of the huge rural population crash. In states like Nebraska and Kansas, particularly in their western halves, there are hundreds of towns with collapsing roofs, boarded up store fronts, and, obvious signs of blight. Go into the cities with populations greater than 5,000, and, most of their downtowns are unoccupied with what business that survives, centered in a huge Walmart just outside the city limits. Drive out into the country and the majority of surviving structures are abandoned.

The working farms that survive either look like small cities made up of grain silos, or are dream farms that can only survive by putting outside income into the farm- i.e., money loosing propositions. Many of the farmers are old, and, contrary to BS in the press, the old farmers don't have much energy anymore. Survival is contracted out to a few young entrepreneurs that own $1 million or more in fertilizer spraying equipment, combines, tractors etc., that charge a flat rate per bushel. When the price goes up everybody is happy, when the price per bushel drops only the young entrepreneur makes any money. Of course, the old farmer borrows more money, and, flirts with going bankruptcy for the "n" time.

In order to see this in your area (even with the trees), get off the interstates. The old US highway system has roads that show the Country without the retail, food, and, lodging that the interstates bring. Much of it looks like "rural" Detroit, with huge areas planted in mono crop agriculture surrounding abandoned barns and farm houses.
i've made the st. louis/kansas city to denver drive many times, and down the old pre-interstate roads.

yes, these areas were over-settled, and cannot support a dense eastern-midwestern rural agricultural based population, and the ogallala (and others) aquifer cannot support this kind of agriculture indefinitely.

some of it is a brutally beautiful landscape that is unintelligible from a LGA to LAX flight, from the beginning of the plains in the flint hills to the smoky hills and beyond to the storied "staked" and high plains. last summer i photographed a lot of what appeared to be desertification (and the rural abandonment and the way that the imported midwestern timber has baked silver in the plains sunlight) in SW Kansas, unfortunately the heat of the sun in my car baked my camera...108 degrees outside with high dry winds, who knows how hot my car got.

the watered, supportive land definitively ends somewhere west of topeka, although that line wavers considerably year to year. i've seen extreme plains style drought make it all the way to the mississippi river.

it's amazing how oasis-like the front range seems after you have made the trek, camping and driving backroads all the way from the banks of the mississippi, reading the old plains literature and history (and the Heat-Moon stuff).
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2014, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Or in other words, in spite of what the media would have you believe...Republican regions lag the rest of the country in wealth and income and its residents continue to vote against their own self interests.

But hey! Look, there's Jesus and Obama is a Communist.
so you've never seen the suburban upper-middle and "new money" lower-upper strongholds of the midwest and east coast? places where people live on lakes year round. these are vast and influential places, as much as i lament. these places compose entire counties of metropolitan detroit, chicago, st. louis, etc.
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