Tucson Development Thread

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

Amen to that!!! Tucson is never going to be a true skyscraper city.

RRancher, you are truly careful with your words in this forum. Thanks for expressing it diplomatically. Let's make it 3 sq miles of 'tall' buildings.

As for Tucson extending beyond 200 sq miles, I think it will be more difficult these days. It will be as difficult as building a crosstown freeway (east-west) in Tucson. Urbanism is pretty much the trend these days all over the planet. Looks like cities are in the downtown revitalization craze. Suburbs will still be around but not that significant.

Got excited about the possibility of a chain grocery store downtown. Used to live right besides a grocery store in the same block (of all places, Phoenix)... that was a delicious time.

@andrewsaturn "... Also, it doesn't say in this story but Tucson News Now did mention before that if these investors decided to commit to helping downtown, it would be worth an additional 2 billion dollars. ..." . Maybe, more high rises?

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

My daughter goes to school on the northeast side of town, the farthest possible point from the interstates in Tucson (as I-10 heads west as it goes north to Phoenix and south as it heads east to New Mexico). We live on the southeast side of town (Camino Seco & Escalante) and my girlfriend works on the northwest side of town (Prince & I-10).

Not to criticize, but the tenets of most schools of urbanism, especially new urbanism, would dictate against this much travel altogether. From my perspective, Tucson needs to move away from the model of emphasizing and accommodating crosstown travel on a daily basis. Ideally, you'd be able to do all you do every day without leaving a relatively confined area. Building a freeway through the center of the city (and bulldozing countless neighborhoods) encourages a future where that's not more likely than it is today.

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by farmerk

RRancher, you are truly careful with your words in this forum. Thanks for expressing it diplomatically. Let's make it 3 sq miles of 'tall' buildings.

As for Tucson extending beyond 200 sq miles, I think it will be more difficult these days. It will be as difficult as building a crosstown freeway (east-west) in Tucson. Urbanism is pretty much the trend these days all over the planet. Looks like cities are in the downtown revitalization craze. Suburbs will still be around but not that significant.

Got excited about the possibility of a chain grocery store downtown. Used to live right besides a grocery store in the same block (of all places, Phoenix)... that was a delicious time.

@andrewsaturn "... Also, it doesn't say in this story but Tucson News Now did mention before that if these investors decided to commit to helping downtown, it would be worth an additional 2 billion dollars. ..." . Maybe, more high rises?

Two Billion, that's about the cost of the new world trade center. To me that seems like a lot for a tower, even of that size.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Not to criticize, but the tenets of most schools of urbanism, especially new urbanism, would dictate against this much travel altogether. From my perspective, Tucson needs to move away from the model of emphasizing and accommodating crosstown travel on a daily basis. Ideally, you'd be able to do all you do every day without leaving a relatively confined area. Building a freeway through the center of the city (and bulldozing countless neighborhoods) encourages a future where that's not more likely than it is today.

I don't take it as a criticism. This is a forum to discuss and debate, and it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me or not. That said, I could care less what new urbanism thinks or says. I don't subscribe to ideologies about this or that. If something works then I'm all for it. I think we need a cross-town freeway, but as I said in my response, that time has since passed thanks to the poor planning of the city and those that thought if they didn't built it they (and we) wouldn't come. Well, they (and we) did come and now this town is a nightmare driving from east to west (or vice-a-versa) on the surface streets. I don't think they should bulldoze neighborhoods, and anyway, even if they did, it would be way too expensive, just to build a freeway. If it could be incorporated into the existing city without too much change than I'm all for it, but I don't see that as a realistic possibility, so we'll have to deal with it as it is.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

I don't take it as a criticism. This is a forum to discuss and debate, and it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me or not. That said, I could care less what new urbanism thinks or says. I don't subscribe to ideologies about this or that. If something works then I'm all for it. I think we need a cross-town freeway, but as I said in my response, that time has since passed thanks to the poor planning of the city and those that thought if they didn't built it they (and we) wouldn't come. Well, they (and we) did come and now this town is a nightmare driving from east to west (or vice-a-versa) on the surface streets. I don't think they should bulldoze neighborhoods, and anyway, even if they did, it would be way too expensive, just to build a freeway. If it could be incorporated into the existing city without too much change than I'm all for it, but I don't see that as a realistic possibility, so we'll have to deal with it as it is.

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

Two Billion, that's about the cost of the new world trade center. To me that seems like a lot for a tower, even of that size.

Tucson will have it's own WTC, like it or NOT, damn it!! ... just kidding. It's more than likely $2 billion spread out over several projects. And my guess here, they'll be spent on mid, high rise buildings .... probably condos, apts, retail etc. As much as I like stadiums, rainbow bridge, freestanding tower, arenas (big ticket items) etc.. , I think that's (tall buildings) where the $2 billion will be spent.

If you remember, Tucson started concentrating on big ticket items for downtown and $200+ million later there's nothing positive to show. And considering the great demand at the current student housing projects, I'll bet there's going to be several tall buildings in the horizon.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.

Totally agree about the condition of roads. 22nd St. is horrible and 5th St. is just as bad. Also agree that it will take more than the last election (the $100 million bond to fix city streets) to fix the problem, but it was a good start. I voted for it and am glad it passed. There's already been major progress on the east side of town (though I don't know if this was already planned work or due to the bond vote). They've repaved Golf Links from Kolb to Craycroft, and a little bit of Craycroft north of Golf Links. They're also currently working on Broadway in the Pantano area. Agree this could help speed up traffic, but still would love a cross-town freeway in Tucson, as part of a comprehensive transportation plan.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.

I used to live in Los Angeles and lived 25 miles from work, all freeway...it took 2 hours both ways! By contrast, I live 33 miles from work now and it takes me about 50 minutes to an hour.

[AustinBear]

Anyone who really wants to whine and complain about traffic in Tucson....well...I remember going through Tucson on I-10 around 4:30, close to 5:00 PM I think. It was when the 10 was about 3 lanes wide, each side, and though it was a little slow and go, it still moved. I've driven on the surface streets before, and I'm still not one to complain. Come to Austin, and deal with our rush hour on any of our freeways or surface streets. It's brutal. I"ll take Phoenix or Tucson traffic any day of the week. We'll even get rush hour traffic during the noon hour.

[soleri]

Putting aside hobbyhorses and ideologies, the real question about urban freeways is what they do for and against the city itself. If you look at vintage pictures of virtually any American city from, say, 1950, you see tight urban development where residential and commercial blended much better than they do today. People didn't need to drive as much or go as far. The cities were coherent, and as such, extraordinarily vibrant places. After the great urban freeway debacles of the past 50-some years, we look at band-aid approaches to healing destabilized and low-energy downtowns, such as convention and performing arts centers. But these ventures often end up creating even more dead zones. Case in point: downtown Phoenix.

I lived in Tucson in the early 1970s when downtown was busy and lively. But they had already torn down the ramshackle barrio for the Tucson convention center. If that barrio existed today, Tucson would rival places like Santa Fe and San Luis Obispo for charm and urban cool. The things we do to cities in the name of personal convenience is shameless and tragic. You want Tucson to be in the same league as places like Santa Fe, Salt Lake City, Boise, and
Fort Collins where quality of life takes precedence over autocentric sprawl. One Phoenix is too many. Tucson deserves its own destiny.

[southtucsonboy77]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/tim-steller-grand-canyon-university-tucson-campus-a-great-idea/article_5370f56d-adf1-5669-a397-f8e8e720b1df.html

"...Grand Canyon officials did not return my call seeking comment, but I believe Mueller is referring to Tucson's El Rio site and to another site owned by the town of Oro Valley, which is competing to become the home of the new campus."

"...The Oro Valley site remains obscure. Town officials sent me this statement indirectly tweaking Tucson: "The Town of Oro Valley does have a proposal under consideration by Grand Canyon University; however out of respect for the client, the Town is declining further comment while the project is still in negotiations."

Whoever gets the campus will receive a big economic boost: a nine-figure construction project, plus a workforce projected to reach 1,000 employees, with a payroll of $60 million, by 2020. Grand Canyon estimates eventual enrollment at the campus around 6,000 students.

I would still like to see this built in Tucson to help the region's core and primary city boost its dragging economy and wages...but if the majority of the City Council and the neighborhood don't want it...then I'll be happy with Oro Valley. At least its still in the region.

The whole narrative about the cultural significance of the golf course, the way things "were" in the past...I think that's pulling the race card. It's a travesty to the economics of Tucson...the entire city...not just the neighborhood if the university does not get built. Thank goodness there are alternative sites, most likely Oro Valley (it seems). Can you imagine if our city leaders worked with Motorola when they wanted to locate here?

I've read articles on how the city leaders are idiots and dummies because they can't manage the budget, they are losing money on the golf courses, etc etc...yet, now they have an opportunity to sell a golf course property that is losing money and now they are being inconsiderate. I don't get it!!! Yes, making the site into a park...the idea alone is a good idea although the city still would have to spend and maintain it. A university with a potentially beautiful campus integrating what's already there and boosting our dragging economy, even a better idea in my opinion.

[southtucsonboy77]

Here are a few docs that I participated in. I was part of the Loop Study TAC...the initial intent was good, but it became an anything-is-possible document.

Alot of the comments written in this Forum are correct, Tucson has passed its time of a true crosstown freeway. The only "crosstown" freeway that is still a possibility (and its in Huckelberry's proposed Bond Package) is the I-19 to east I-10 by SR 83 for Port of Tucson, UA Tech Park, and goods movement.


PAG Loop Study (2004-2006)

http://www.pagnet.org/documents/Transportation/TranspoPlanning/Working_Paper_3.pdf

Southeast Arterial Study (2006)

http://www.pagnet.org/Portals/0/Documents/Transportation/SEAAS_Final_Map.pdf

[farmerk]

IMHO, GCU should build their school at El Rio. If they get to locate at Oro Valley, this would send another confusing message to investors who want to invest in Tucson.

Just how perfect do you need to be to invest in Tucson? Why can't Tucsonans allow GCU to build a campus in Tucson when University of Phoenix , among other for-profit schools in Tucson, has a branch here? Are Tucsonans prejudiced against christians? Would Tucsonans feel the same way if Microsoft or Apple ( both constantly in court for whatever reason ) open a campus at El Rio? There's the School for the Deaf and Blind besides it and PCC West/Stone Ave ... then why exclude GCU. Big blow for Tucson if this project gets turned down (forced by a few whinny neighbors).

[ComplotDesigner]

Hey guys, here is a picture I took yesterday from El Charro downtown. You can notice the Joint Court Complex.

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by ComplotDesigner

Hey guys, here is a picture I took yesterday from El Charro downtown. You can notice the Joint Court Complex.

That parking lot is perfect for development...

[Phxguy]

Dropped into Tucson today for some business with my mother and took her to Diablo Burger afterwards. Both our first time walking downtown, I must say I'm very impressed. Not only were the burgers delicous and business very friendly, the block was humming with people. Sure it was a Monday, but there were countless people walking dogs, riding bikes, and the atmosphere felt more lively. Gorgeous building Hotel Congress is as well as the Rialto block.
We strolled down to Church St. and then made our way back up one block over from the Pima Courthouse. We popped in a few shops along the way. I really enjoyed it. Although I will mention there feels to be a dead-space between the Chase building and about the Chicago Music Store. Not sure if a ton of construction or what but just more empty store fronts than what I saw further up. Anyways, keep it rad Tucson!

[ppdd]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

That parking lot is perfect for development...

That lot has been on various development plans over the years. Someday it will be something....

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Phxguy

Dropped into Tucson today for some business with my mother and took her to Diablo Burger afterwards. Both our first time walking downtown, I must say I'm very impressed. Not only were the burgers delicous and business very friendly, the block was humming with people. Sure it was a Monday, but there were countless people walking dogs, riding bikes, and the atmosphere felt more lively. Gorgeous building Hotel Congress is as well as the Rialto block.
We strolled down to Church St. and then made our way back up one block over from the Pima Courthouse. We popped in a few shops along the way. I really enjoyed it. Although I will mention there feels to be a dead-space between the Chase building and about the Chicago Music Store. Not sure if a ton of construction or what but just more empty store fronts than what I saw further up. Anyways, keep it rad Tucson!

Those blocks - between 6th and Stone - are definitely quieter. Part of the problem is that a fire took out most of the building on the southwest corner of Scott and Congress this past winter, which has created a (hopefully temporary) dead space. Another part of the problem is that one of the bigger property holders in that block doesn't have the vision of the people who have developed the blocks east of that point and seems content focusing on mediocre nightclubs.

[cdsuofa]

Originally Posted by aznate27

Grade seperated interesctions down Grant Road into Kolb is the best future this city has for a crosstown expressway. I'd give up on the idea of having a concrete slab running east-west. Plus I wouldn't want anything like that, it would divide the city in two and any neighborhood that bordered it would lose value. We need to start getting away from the idea that a freeway is the only answer to today's traffic problems. It's 2013 for petes sake!

I agree with you that grade separated intersections and just overall smarter design of our arterial roads would be effective enough. The only plausible place to put a freeway would be down the Rillito wash bed and then up Kolb but that has been explored and public support for that is low. Forget the demolition of buildings across town it wont happen, way too expensive and for the reasons mentioned by aznate. Putting that money towards major intersections and making them like Kino/22nd, Tanque verde/Pantano, Mission/22nd etc. is our best bet IMO. Even picking a couple roads for example Oracle making most of their intersections overpass/underpass would be great for getting across town.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by cdsuofa

I agree with you that grade separated intersections and just overall smarter design of our arterial roads would be effective enough. The only plausible place to put a freeway would be down the Rillito wash bed and then up Kolb but that has been explored and public support for that is low. Forget the demolition of buildings across town it wont happen, way too expensive and for the reasons mentioned by aznate. Putting that money towards major intersections and making them like Kino/22nd, Tanque verde/Pantano, Mission/22nd etc. is our best bet IMO. Even picking a couple roads for example Oracle making most of their intersections overpass/underpass would be great for getting across town.

I drive down Oracle Road every week on my way to work in Catalina and grade separated intersections at River, Ina, Magee, and Tangerine Road would move traffic (which is always heavy) along much more efficiently. I also think the same would work at Kolb/Irvington, Kolb/Golflinks, 22nd/Kolb, Speedway/Kolb, and Tanque Verde/Kolb giving the eastside a parkway that runs north/south.