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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 9:21 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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Here is a bit of Plymouth and Northville:


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Plymouth, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Northville, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 9:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post


Not sure what happened to Manhattan, there...
Looks like Manhattan's distorted shape is from those limits including the rivers around it (see how the boundary is shaped around the Battery).
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
market reality or market failure? As you said, ppl don't want to live in Detroit for the most part. There are things the state and federal governments could do to restart the market though and correct this.
How does the government "restart the market"? Throwing good money after bad? Government's job is not compelling people to live where they don't want to live. Detroit is cool and all, but people's reasons for not wanting to live there are quite valid.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Thundertubs View Post
How does the government "restart the market"? Throwing good money after bad? Government's job is not compelling people to live where they don't want to live. Detroit is cool and all, but people's reasons for not wanting to live there are quite valid.
We're not talking about COMPELLING people to do anything. We're talking about what the government could do to make people WANT to live in Detroit again. Obviously, the metro is populated and relatively prosperous. People would live in Detroit if they could.

I don't buy the free market argument when it comes to housing at all. Housing should be regulated, utility-style. Left to its own devices, the private sector has made TERRIBLE choices and investments when it comes to the housing market in the US. 60,000 home developments in the uninhabitable NV scrub, etc etc.

Wouldn't a bit more direction and compelling of the homebuilding industry be a good thing?

And part of this oversight could include directing capital to investments which, while earning their investors a slightly smaller ROE, might produce much greater aggregate societal benefits. The government would have to step, of course, in firmly re-establishing police authority and reducing crime in the areas being invested in.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 10:31 PM
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I find it interesting that Detroiters care less about the central city dying out as long as the suburbs are thriving.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 10:40 PM
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That's not true, really. When people talk about the strength of the suburbs it's usually to highlight the fact that Detroit hasn't "died" but has rather shifted its weight from central city to surrounding metro (well some people would still consider that dying lol). Current MSA pop for the region is only slightly below its historical peak.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2013, 11:11 PM
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[Edited to remove incorrect data found on Wikipedia]

-----------------------

I love the historic aerials in this thread. The density was solid, very much like Chicago and similar in built form to the three-decker parts of Boston.
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Last edited by fflint; Feb 5, 2013 at 12:58 AM. Reason: To remove incorrect data found on Wikipedia
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 12:00 AM
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I wonder if it's possible for Detroit to start a growth initiative that is similar to the one that is being used for Toronto or Chicago.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 12:16 AM
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Detroit needs some hardcore gentrification to happen to its downtown and inner city ghetto shitholes.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 4:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fflint View Post
Detroit MSA:

1950 - 3,016,197
1960 - 3,762,360 - 24.7% growth
1970 - 4,307,470 - 14.5% growth
1980 - 4,353,365 - 1.1% growth
1990 - 4,382,299 - 0.7% growth
2000 - 4,452,557 - 1.6% growth
2010 - 4,296,250 - 3.5% decline
2011 - 4,285,832 - 0.2% decline (est.)

Wikipedia
2013 estimate is at 4,260,000. Though I would say it's a bit higher than that due to the slight improvement in the economy. Then again, it's hard to tell how much of suburban growth outweighs Detroit's depopulation.

Quote:
I love the historic aerials in this thread. The density was solid, very much like Chicago and similar in built form to the three-decker parts of Boston.
Interestingly, there were some apartment specific areas. This is likely one of the areas that had 40K ppsm. This is along Chicago Boulevard between Dexter and Linwood.


http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...-UND-1%5D440_1

And the neighborhood just north of there.

http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...MC-X-440%5D440

I actually grew up in this neighborhood and most of these are two-family flats with some single-family mixed in. The single-family homes seems like mostly infill from the post-war boom.


http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...-X-3023%5D3023

I haven't really taken any photos of this neighborhood, but I'm guessing it's much similar to how Chicago is but much wider main streets. The apartment buildings architecture also had a Italian/Mediterranean vibe to it (I'm not sure what the specific style is called).

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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 4:20 AM
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If the inhabitants of the city of Detroit were to calm down and stop shooting each other en masse, it would be a lot easier to finance and build successful "redevelopment" projects. But with a murder/crime rate like many parts of Detroit have at the moment, that is very difficult. Why would you expend money and potentially your own safety when there are plenty of easier areas asking for investments, and where you are much less likely to get shot by the locals?
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
If the inhabitants of the city of Detroit were to calm down and stop shooting each other en masse, it would be a lot easier to finance and build successful "redevelopment" projects. But with a murder/crime rate like many parts of Detroit have at the moment, that is very difficult. Why would you expend money and potentially your own safety when there are plenty of easier areas asking for investments, and where you are much less likely to get shot by the locals?
Doesn't seem to be stopping developers in Chicago.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 3:49 PM
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It's actually more political the more and more I think about it. Currently, Detroit is nearing bankruptcy and obviously that wouldn't be good for any of the city services. Detroit hasn't been able to find any new revenue sources save for an outside entity to come in and help improve the quality of life. Crime falls under that QOL index, I know, but Detroit hasn't really been able to get a handle on keeping it down.

Just the other day, they announced they were closing 50 city parks due to lack of money. Some parks are kept up by volunteers and such, but as a resident of a city, I don't think it's expected that you should cut the grass at the local park. That has a far bigger impact on land values in addition to high crime rates so.... it's just all downhill for Detroit. Turned off streetlights, broken down and crowded buses, dirty parks and general surroundings... no one wants to live in a city like that even if the crime rate was going down. It completely baffles me that the city has not tried harder to get outside help to support the things the city can no longer manage with a smaller tax base. At this point, depopulation is a self-inflicted shot in the foot that is almost irrelevant to what's been going on prior to 2008.

And I fear that it'll hurt the downtown area and eventually reverse the revival that's currently going on there. I hope that's just my personal pessimism and not an accurate assessment of what's to come.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 4:01 PM
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Some of those old Detroit photos are incredible. When my Grandmother immigrated from Italy in the very early 1920s, they settled in Detroit for a few years with other family members that had already immigrated. Eventually they moved to Los Angeles. I wonder in which part of Detroit they lived.

The destruction and demolition of historic portions of most American cities is mind-blowing.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 6:05 PM
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My grandmother told me once about how, in the late 1940s, my grandfather was offered a very good promotion into upper management, and had several choices as to where he could work.

They decided they wanted to stay in the Midwest, as they had three small children and wanted to be as close as possible to their extended family in Indianapolis. She and my grandfather visited each city, he checking out the office and possible coworkers, she checking out neighborhoods and public transportation (she never once drove a car). Ever the city-phile, I asked my grandmother about their trips to the cities, and about why they had eliminated some from consideration.

"Detroit was just too big, too crowded" she told me. My grandfather thought the job would work out well, but he spent all day at work. My grandmother just didn't think she could handle raising three small children in a city so large and so busy. They settled on St. Louis (before eventually being transferred to Boston), which she admitted was also a big city at the time, but one that she felt was less hectic and more manageable.

Now that's an anecdote, but it contains some history to it--Detroit was absolutely perceived as the "bright lights, big city" kind of place, in league with Chicago, that its historic numbers suggest. Somewhere, I have a glass ashtray they kept--inset at the bottom is the night skyline of Detroit, a city at its peak.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 7:07 PM
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the notion that inner city detroit will one day rebuild itself is laughable. really. having grown up in se michigan, thats all we ever heard from stalwart detroit boosters. which is fine, and certainly optimistic, but the notion that you can rebuild the inner city to some semblance of its former glory is delusional. you can clean up downtown, rebuild some historic hotels, build a people mover and street car, but it wont change the fact that 40 plus years of post riot mismanagement and a fortefied rim of scared and uncooperative suburban counties has not helped the situation. its not to say something wont thrive in the inner city, eventually, it will be nature. and i say fine. let detroit return to the earth, maybe even pioneer the first inner city urban farm belt on earth, thats my hope. but to allude to the fact that it will become a diverse, safe, and prosperous inner region within my lifetime is false. i hope im wrong though....
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 7:19 PM
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Will the 10 sq. mi. that make up the Greater Downtown continue to improve? Probably. Will several neighborhoods in the outer neighborhoods benefit from a healthier core? Probably. Will dozens of square miles of the city remain listless and empty long past your death? Probably.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 7:29 PM
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the rules of modern urban planning do not apply to detroit. in fact, most rules of urban converntion dont either. urban planners who didn't grow up there should throw out their portland bred, quaint notion of walkable urban space and just go there and see what a weird place it is. thats not to say i dont have love for detroit, i do, lots, buts yes, i agree, most of the inner rim neighbors are in a bad way. maybe a mini growth boundary would work. grandfather in all current uses within a 3 mile radius and then limit new permits for anything to be within 3 miles of the cbd. let the outer neighborhoods turn to corn fields...
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 7:38 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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You do realize that much of the outer neighborhoods looks like this:


Greenwich Park, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Norham, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


037 by hudkina, on Flickr


Mexicantown, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Condon, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


How exactly do you expect those neighborhoods to turn to cornfields?

Yes, there will be dozens of often contiguous square miles of mostly empty land, but to say that all 130 sq. mi. outside of the core will return to "cornfields" shows you just how little you actually understand the city. Detroit certainly has urban problems on a scale few cities have ever had, but it really wouldn't be that difficult to affect real change that will make these neighborhoods desirable to a certain number of people. Obviously middle-class white families will never return to these neighborhoods in our lifetimes, but others will. Southwest Detroit is a good example of this. The area is home to tens of thousands of hispanics who come to the city, despite the problems. There are other areas (such as the borderlands with Hamtramck and Dearborn) that also attract a certain number of immigrants. You can't possibly write off the entire city's future based on the economic collapse of the last five years.

Last edited by hudkina; Feb 4, 2013 at 7:48 PM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2013, 7:56 PM
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like i said, there aren't cut and dry rules that apply to detroit. yeah, the closer you get to the city border, the nicer things become, but thats why they are nicer. because they are far away from ground zero. and there are some nice neighborhoods fairly close to downtown, corktown, parts of delray, mexicantown, up jefferson. but by in large within a 4 mile radius of the recen, its mostly a bombed out wasteland. really, its a globalization and class conundrum more then anything. the manufacturing bottom of the city fell out and mostly never returned. which kind of $%$'d alot of cities, not just detroit. i dont how to fix it, i dont think you can. it will fizzle out eventually, the outer neighborhoods will align themselves with the closest suburban communities on the other side of the city line, and the cbd will be surrounded miles of vacant land. its sounds kind of apocolyptic but there are so many neighborhoods that look like that already....
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