'Pop-Up' Housing in D.C.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by ukw

^ For goodness sake you can't compare Madrid/Berlin/Dublin to DC. The aforementioned cities are liberal, while DC is emphatically conservative. You will never build something on par with those cities in the DC area, no matter how the land gets developed, and the reason for that is geography, which has to do with conservative Southern influences that begin to be felt around the DC perimeter and going South into VA. If you've ever seen how conservatively people dress in DC, or how uptight they are culturally, it should be clear that no amount of effort will transform DC into something it's not.

I restate my point. Even if they don't become like those cities exactly in cultural terms (impossible of coures), DC had a chance to become a vibrant thriving CITY with more density that current laws make very difficult to create, together with the development of edge cities which sap jobs and activities from an underdeveloped core

I don't get the conservative part. Really don't see it. So many folks are in DC from out of town that this is not your granddad's DC anymore, dorothy. Care to explain to me how the young professionals in DC are conservative. Go to Adams Morgan and tell me that that is conservative behavior!

Don't tell me that Boston isn't conservative. It is. And it's NORTHERN. If DC is a conservative by your ranking, where in the US in a similar sized city ISN"T conservative? Nowhere I bet, because unless you go NYC or somewhere, DC is basically as liberal as they come in this country. Berlin is full of uptight business men too. On the weekend I see men dressed in kakis and flannel here, just like the so called liberal bastion of Seattle.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by ukw

^ For goodness sake you can't compare Madrid/Berlin/Dublin to DC. The aforementioned cities are liberal, while DC is emphatically conservative. You will never build something on par with those cities in the DC area, no matter how the land gets developed, and the reason for that is geography, which has to do with conservative Southern influences that begin to be felt around the DC perimeter and going South into VA. If you've ever seen how conservatively people dress in DC, or how uptight they are culturally, it should be clear that no amount of effort will transform DC into something it's not.

I had to bump the thread. I want to know, if DC is conservative, where do you consider liberal in the USA that would approach Dublin, Berlin, and Madrid?

ALso, if DC is conservative, what in God's name would you call Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and other southern towns?

Boston is conservative due to the puritan influence.

[ukw]

Originally Posted by aquablue

i had to bump the thread. I want to know, if dc is conservative, where do you consider liberal in the usa that would approach dublin, berlin, and madrid?

nyc

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by aquablue

I don't get the conservative part. Really don't see it. So many folks are in DC from out of town that this is not your granddad's DC anymore, dorothy. Care to explain to me how the young professionals in DC are conservative. Go to Adams Morgan and tell me that that is conservative behavior!

DC has a fundamentally conservative feel relative to the major U.S. coastal cities. You see it in the architecture, social scene, creative scene (or lack thereof) and economic base. Not politically conservative, of course, but socially rather conservative.

And DC's has a huge draw from the American South. There are just tons of young professionals from the major southern universities, which tend to lean more conservative than the northern universities. Even the elite Duke/UVA/UNC type schools are much more conserative than their northern counterparts (again not necessarily talking politics here).

[Cirrus]

OK Barcelona and Madrid are world cities, but Dublin? Dublin is smaller than DC, lower density than DC, less diverse than DC, and even more of a low-rise city than DC. Dublin is lovely, but I can't think of a single way it's more of a world city than DC, except for simple europhilia.

For the sake of not turning this into a versus thread, I'll not argue about it further. And of course, DC has plenty of room for improvement. But if the prime example of a world class city is Dublin, then what's DC lacking?

[Crawford]

Agreed. Dublin isn't comparable to DC. It's relatively small, not particularly cosmopolitan or dynamic for Western European standards, and not really that interesting, IMO.

[RCDC]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

^
Poorly-executed architecture is a side issue.

It's the norm. The poster child examples are the exception. It's amazing how one bad popup can kill an entire block's character, the very character that's helped fuel this city's revitalization. You can't just hand-wave it away because it's not important to you. And I didn't say anything about banning popups.

Originally Posted by Eightball

Not too mention tax revenue...

Yes that's true, just like a subdivision adds more tax revenue than a greenfield. Both lead to the destruction of the area's character that made it attractive in the first place.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by RCDC

It's the norm. The poster child examples are the exception. It's amazing how one bad popup can kill an entire block's character, the very character that's helped fuel this city's revitalization. You can't just hand-wave it away because it's not important to you. And I didn't say anything about banning popups.

I didn't say bad architecture isn't a problem, nor that we shouldn't do something to fix it. I said attacking pop-ups for being pop-ups is the wrong solution.

[jpdivola]

Originally Posted by Crawford

DC has a fundamentally conservative feel relative to the major U.S. coastal cities. You see it in the architecture, social scene, creative scene (or lack thereof) and economic base. Not politically conservative, of course, but socially rather conservative.

And DC's has a huge draw from the American South. There are just tons of young professionals from the major southern universities, which tend to lean more conservative than the northern universities. Even the elite Duke/UVA/UNC type schools are much more conserative than their northern counterparts (again not necessarily talking politics here).

Yeah, I guess DC is a little more in the south than Philly-NYC-Bos. But, I wouldn't say it is more "politically conservative."

I tend to think of DC as being more "button down" than conservative. Politically, DC is solidly liberal. But, DC is basically a government town. You have to get along to go along, so everyone is pretty button down and somber. Not a lot of tattoos or piercings or outlandish behavior.

It doesn't really have the artistic/counter cultural scene that you would find in SF Bay or NYC (or a lesser extent Bos/Cambridge).

Not sure how this really effects pop ups though? NYC, SF, Bos, Philly are just as dominated by NIMBYism as DC is. Try building a popup on a Park Slope or South End Brownstone. The only advantages those cities have is that 1) they have larger historic urban footprints, so there are more urban areas for "contextual urban infill" 2) they allow tall buildings, so they can hold more capacity in their cores.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

It doesn't really have the artistic/counter cultural scene that you would find in SF Bay or NYC (or a lesser extent Bos/Cambridge).

DC's counter culture is extremely, extremely weak. But its artistic, localvore, and DIY communities are surprisingly strong. Probably because DC has a lot of disposable income.

[Eightball]

Originally Posted by RCDC

It's the norm. The poster child examples are the exception. It's amazing how one bad popup can kill an entire block's character, the very character that's helped fuel this city's revitalization. You can't just hand-wave it away because it's not important to you. And I didn't say anything about banning popups.


Yes that's true, just like a subdivision adds more tax revenue than a greenfield. Both lead to the destruction of the area's character that made it attractive in the first place.

No, it's completely different than greenfield development. You know this. And if it's so destructive of the area's character, why are they asking for more for the top unit than any recent sale in the neighborhood?

Pop-ups aren't going to kill the city's revitalization. They are a symbol of revitalization, to be honest.

I get that you don't like the aesthetics of some (all?) pop-ups. So what are you suggesting if not banning?

And DC's art scene is fine. Certainly not the first priority of city residents, but there is great art in lots of places (Anacostia, Mt. Rainier, countless others)

[202_Cyclist]

jpdivola:

It doesn't really have the artistic/counter cultural scene that you would find in SF Bay or NYC (or a lesser extent Bos/Cambridge).

You'd actually be surprised. DC had a big punk scene in the 1980s and Henry Rollins was from my former neighborhood-- Glover Park.

This thread is getting sidetracked but I don't think DC is too socially conservative. Yes, it might be more restrained and toned-down than LA or New York, but there are plenty of people who are not connected to politics/govt in Washington.

[novawolverine]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

Yeah, I guess DC is a little more in the south than Philly-NYC-Bos. But, I wouldn't say it is more "politically conservative."

I tend to think of DC as being more "button down" than conservative. Politically, DC is solidly liberal. But, DC is basically a government town. You have to get along to go along, so everyone is pretty button down and somber. Not a lot of tattoos or piercings or outlandish behavior.

It doesn't really have the artistic/counter cultural scene that you would find in SF Bay or NYC (or a lesser extent Bos/Cambridge).

Not sure how this really effects pop ups though? NYC, SF, Bos, Philly are just as dominated by NIMBYism as DC is. Try building a popup on a Park Slope or South End Brownstone. The only advantages those cities have is that 1) they have larger historic urban footprints, so there are more urban areas for "contextual urban infill" 2) they allow tall buildings, so they can hold more capacity in their cores.

I agree with you regarding Boston. To me, among the big cities, NYC and SF stand out.

Boston and environs don't have happy hours, has relatively early closing times, and until recent has early shut-down times for the T and it's not necessarily all economically-driven. Architecturally, it's not far more interesting than DC, at least of late. Boston is also a somewhat insular town, albeit very prideful as you'd expect. It's even waspier than DC and doesn't feel nearly as open-minded racially. Cambridge pushes the envelope more, but overall, Boston isn't not super-liberal.

DC is well-educated so even the conservatives have some intelligence despite some of their unfortunate beliefs, think Tucker Carlson and other insufferable know-it-all's like that. They tend to be more "fiscal conservative, socially libertarian" types. And, you have a lot of people from not just the South, but from the Northeast and abroad as well. DC has more liberal Europeans and other educated foreigners than most cities that are often called liberal.

DC is "buttoned-up" based on what its main industry is, but the NIMBYism, that I often associate with conservative beliefs, is driven by the elite liberal types who don't mind espousing liberal stances in theory but are not as open-minded when it comes to their community. Not different than other cities with a similar populace. I do think DC has lacked some of the visionary, maybe call it heavy-handed, leadership that would help execute more ambitious and needle-moving plans and execute them faster. There's too much noise in the DC political system.

I don't even think DC is all that conservative architecturally outside of the height limit, as conflicting as that might sound. The lack of artistic types is the main thing.

And I can't help but also say that this discussion is very White-centric. I don't think the Black community that has given DC its nickname is very appreciated when it comes to topics like these. At least acknowledge it even if it's not something you aren't interested in.

[dc_denizen]

I guess it depends on how much you choose to be annoyed by the sub-population of Dave Mathews-listening U of VA grads in the city.

Braying douchebags exist in every English speaking culture, why single out DC over say London to Toronto or Sydney or Boston on this angle.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Agreed. Dublin isn't comparable to DC. It's relatively small, not particularly cosmopolitan or dynamic for Western European standards, and not really that interesting, IMO.

not to mention abortion is ILLEGAL in Ireland. liberal, my ass.

[fflint]

Pop-ups are a good way to increase density within a given city's existing built form. No, make that a great way to do so. But the really bad examples of infill really do threaten to turn public sentiment against pop-up construction. A couple of the photos in this thread made me cringe. I know I'm not the only one. More of that and this could be a very short-lived development trend.

As for the 'conservative cities' sub-discussion, I can agree on some level as long as we agree we're being subjective rather than explicitly objective. I think we're talking not about politics per se, but about something less quantifiable--civic temperament. At the ballot box, there's little objective difference between DC and Boston and San Francisco and Seattle (and any other number of generally liberal cities). But in my admittedly subjective experience living on both the East and West Coasts, I find on the streets, in the bars, etc. notably large segments of the respective populations of Boston and DC are more...formal? personally restrained? straight-laced?... than their peers in cities like San Francisco, Portland, Seattle and Los Angeles.

[jpdivola]

Originally Posted by fflint

Pop-ups are a good way to increase density within a given city's existing built form. No, make that a great way to do so. But the really bad examples of infill really do threaten to turn public sentiment against pop-up construction. A couple of the photos in this thread made me cringe. I know I'm not the only one. More of that and this could be a very short-lived development trend.

Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue that these pop-ups have all be well executed. But, I think the crux of the debate is do you:
1) forbid pop-ups, unless specifically approved through a lengthy zoning process
2) allow them as right, but put them through a streamlined architectural design process?
3) leave them as right and continue with no architectural review.

Personally, I favor the 2nd option. But, only with strict limits on the design approvals. No endless delay process for NIMBY neighbors or HPRB-esq micro-management of the design. Basically, 1) is it allowed by zoning 2) do the materials basically match? (I.e. no vinyl pop up on brick row houses.)

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by novawolverine

I agree with you regarding Boston. To me, among the big cities, NYC and SF stand out.

Boston and environs don't have happy hours, has relatively early closing times, and until recent has early shut-down times for the T and it's not necessarily all economically-driven. Architecturally, it's not far more interesting than DC, at least of late. Boston is also a somewhat insular town, albeit very prideful as you'd expect. It's even waspier than DC and doesn't feel nearly as open-minded racially. Cambridge pushes the envelope more, but overall, Boston isn't not super-liberal.

DC is well-educated so even the conservatives have some intelligence despite some of their unfortunate beliefs, think Tucker Carlson and other insufferable know-it-all's like that. They tend to be more "fiscal conservative, socially libertarian" types. And, you have a lot of people from not just the South, but from the Northeast and abroad as well. DC has more liberal Europeans and other educated foreigners than most cities that are often called liberal.

DC is "buttoned-up" based on what its main industry is, but the NIMBYism, that I often associate with conservative beliefs, is driven by the elite liberal types who don't mind espousing liberal stances in theory but are not as open-minded when it comes to their community. Not different than other cities with a similar populace. I do think DC has lacked some of the visionary, maybe call it heavy-handed, leadership that would help execute more ambitious and needle-moving plans and execute them faster. There's too much noise in the DC political system.

I don't even think DC is all that conservative architecturally outside of the height limit, as conflicting as that might sound. The lack of artistic types is the main thing.

And I can't help but also say that this discussion is very White-centric. I don't think the Black community that has given DC its nickname is very appreciated when it comes to topics like these. At least acknowledge it even if it's not something you aren't interested in.

I disagree about the architecture. It's pretty conservative. Go to downtown DC and the rows and rows of boring office blocks of identical height (on streets like I, K, L, M, H, etc) and with little imagination is pretty depressing to be honest. Yeah, buttoned down looking indeed. Boston isn't much better. Despite Boston's more impressive rowhouse architecture and taller houses, it's modern buildings aren't very creative at all but the height variation helps a tad. I would say the height limit really dulls down the ability to be creative in DC architecture downtown. Unless every building was very ornate in either an old-style way (think Paris) or with interesting modern facades everywhere, it's always going to look dull. The new buildings around the SW waterfront, etc are also the same old loft-style brick architecture too. It seems pretty conservative to me.

[novawolverine]

Originally Posted by aquablue

I disagree about the architecture. It's pretty conservative. Go to downtown DC and the rows and rows of boring office blocks of identical height (on streets like I, K, L, M, H, etc) and with little imagination is pretty depressing to be honest. Yeah, buttoned down looking indeed. Boston isn't much better. Despite Boston's more impressive rowhouse architecture and taller houses, it's modern buildings aren't very creative at all but the height variation helps a tad. I would say the height limit really dulls down the ability to be creative in DC architecture downtown. Unless every building was very ornate in either an old-style way (think Paris) or with interesting modern facades everywhere, it's always going to look dull. The new buildings around the SW waterfront, etc are also the same old loft-style brick architecture too. It seems pretty conservative to me.

I agree with you here. Maybe it's just from living in a number of these places and spending less time downtown and more time in the neighborhoods, I don't think the architecture of the last 15 years in DC has been significantly behind most other US cities, with the exception of the height issue, which I agree you can't simply ignore. Maybe it's just me, but I think maybe half a dozen large US cities stand out with regards to architecture at most.

I look at 14th St, U St, Columbia Heights, and yes, some places in the greater downtown area and I don't think things are super conservative architecturally relatively speaking, at least what's relatively new. You're right about the bland modernist and brutalist architecture and some of the stuff going up around southwest, though. The height limit augments the bland architecture that unfortunately a lot of US cities have. It's not world-class, but I think it's a grass being greener kind of situation. I think there are some, but not enough, examples of new and along being fused together with some projects.

The most architecturally conservative areas might be the low rise neighborhoods with strong historic designations like Capitol Hill and Georgetown. There's some interesting stuff happening in the places that had been very stagnant and less desirable. The sidewalk-level experience has improved tremendously in many areas.

Transportation policy is enough area where I don't really think DC's been really conservative.

[Eightball]

Originally Posted by fflint

Pop-ups are a good way to increase density within a given city's existing built form. No, make that a great way to do so. But the really bad examples of infill really do threaten to turn public sentiment against pop-up construction. A couple of the photos in this thread made me cringe. I know I'm not the only one. More of that and this could be a very short-lived development trend.

But that's because the antis aren't interested in putting up photos of good ones. There are tons of well done ones all over the city such as:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73028294@N00/13359274314/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73028294@N00/13358548525/