Winnipeg | CentrePoint | Alt/Glasshouse | 20F | 21F | 72.5M | 70M | Completed

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

The clubhouse sandwich from Wagonwheel came with real turkey but if you think the shit they serve at Moxies for 2X the price is better than that's OK.

Or are you inferring something else?

Downtown needs more people. This development brings with it a lot of people.

[buzzg]

Glasshouse is pretty much where the surface lot used to be, and the parkade replaced a bunch of businesses.

Sure may need to shuffle the Norlyn a bit, but I'm sure they couldv'e found a way in to incorporate the parkade under, somewhere else, or put CRUs in it... we're getting to a place where we don't need to accept any development that comes along, as is, anymore.

[jmt18325]

I wouldn't call this just any development. It brought two towers and a lot of people to a focus area of downtown.

[Jeff]

I agree. ALT has brought a lot of new traffic to one of downtown's WORST blocks.

[Urban recluse]

Glasshouse is a beautiful tower. The Alt would look acceptable in a suburb, but not along Portage; it is atrocious. The parkade: meh, a lost opportunity, but not the end of the world. There is plenty of room for stunning developments in the vicinity which could dwarf the parkade.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Glasshouse is a beautiful tower. The Alt would look acceptable in a suburb, but not along Portage; it is atrocious. The parkade: meh, a lost opportunity, but not the end of the world. There is plenty of room for stunning developments in the vicinity which could dwarf the parkade.

The funny thing is that most of the other Alts don't look that bad... the ones at Halifax and Toronto airports, for example, are decent. Ours looks like junk yet ours is the only one that happens to be prominently situated on the main drag downtown. How did we get stuck with something so bad?

I'm with you on the parkade though, I don't think CRUs at grade would have really made a huge difference anyway.

[Urban recluse]

Ideally, the parkade would have been designed to not look like one, with storefronts along Ellice. I know they would have sat vacant for years. Sadly, it will be much longer before this area could support new CRUs with higher lease rates.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm with you on the parkade though, I don't think CRUs at grade would have really made a huge difference anyway.

I think CRU's along the sidewalk would have made a huge difference with that parkade...it is and forever will be a block long black hole in the pedestrian streetscape. Should never be allowed anymore...especially when using public money....it replaced a dozen storefronts that brought life and small business to that block.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I think CRU's along the sidewalk would have made a huge difference with that parkade...it is and forever will be a block long black hole in the pedestrian streetscape. Should never be allowed anymore...especially when using public money....it replaced a dozen storefronts that brought life and small business to that block.

Agreed 100% in theory that CRUs would have been preferable. However, as Urban Recluse pointed out, it's likely that the units would have sat vacant for ages.

Look at the parkade at King and Bannatyne... basically in the nerve centre of one of the city's most walkable areas where pedestrians and storefronts abound, and it still took years for a few restaurants to set up shop. I don't think there would have been many takers for expensive storefront space on such a forlorn stretch.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by buzzg

They could have built it as-is, put one floor of CRUS and just bumped the parkade up one level, if they wanted. They didn't build this "for the good of the city" — they did it to make money. They would have still made money, and if costs are a little higher, you can up the price a bit. Businesses would eventually have moved in, there's no doubt about that. Bedford took some time but is fully leased now.

Again, you have no idea how much money you're adding to the project. if it were that simple everybody's mother would have built a tower and parkade by now.

And OF COURSE they did it for the money! The cities that get nowhere are the ones that get caught so romantically deep up their own asses that the capable money makers say "screw it, I'll do this in Calgary".

In Winnipeg, you can't up the prices... Our construction costs are highest in the COUNTRY, and our rents are low... so where does this profit come from? Furthermore, this was a block that many did NOT want to touch.. so even lower rents. Much like Developers don't like to bend over and accept higher costs, neither do tenants.

The opportunity cost then isn't about whether the profit drops a percentage point... because for all that money, they can do something more profitable elsewhere. Private entities don't have unlimited funds. Why would Longboat/AX do something for a 2% profit (arbitrary %) at Centrepoint when they could make 4% else where? The CITY'S opportunity costs is a lost project, and nobody else was going to do anything near ambitious as 2 towers on that block. Because Longboat/AX looks at 4% not as a 2% more than 2%, but as a 100% increase in profits.

So sometimes you take what you can get. And a parkade plus 2 towers an class A office space (Leased up) is an awesome win overall.

Originally Posted by buzzg

So you just think we should have no zoning, no development rules, no requirements for developers to adhere to? That's ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure you know I don't mean quite that. What I'm saying is that the process could be smoother. The City's job is to help (both citizen and developer), and sometimes helping means getting out of the way a bit more than getting in it.

Originally Posted by buzzg

The issue here with "arbitrary hurdles" almost always has nothing to do with design standards and requirements; it's usually just ridiculous red tape with permits, etc. at city hall. Making life easier for developers I am on board for, letting them do whatever the hell they please, I am not. That's how we almost got a Canalta at The Forks.

I agree with you here... however, design is subjective, and the parkade looks great at night, and perhaps better from other angles. Winnipeg doesn't have many other 7 star parkades to provide comparison, so I'm slightly caught off guard by the frustration here... Perhaps what we ended up with was the prettiest they could do for the money? or Pretty-ish for the money?

Originally Posted by buzzg

You seriously think a half-assed giant parkade is better than a bunch of businesses?

I wouldn't ever consider myself judg/jury/executioner of matters like these... normally I'd say no. But in this case? yes. This development enriches downtown, and while the loss of some businesses isn't nice, most weren't thriving. The problem was that one business tugged at Wpg's heart a little.

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Given what came with it, it's a definitely improvement.

Originally Posted by buzzg

Glasshouse is pretty much where the surface lot used to be, and the parkade replaced a bunch of businesses.

Sure may need to shuffle the Norlyn a bit, but I'm sure they couldv'e found a way in to incorporate the parkade under, somewhere else, or put CRUs in it... we're getting to a place where we don't need to accept any development that comes along, as is, anymore.

Again, this is all MUCH easier said than done. And i'm not sure we're there yet regarding "what comes along". I hope we will be. But this isn't Vancouver.

I realize I sound asshole-ish sometimes. Sorry if that's the case.


In principle, I'm all for delivering the best product for the city, but I'm sensitive to the fact that it's someone else's money... that might stir up some odd libertarian quirks within me.

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I wouldn't call this just any development. It brought two towers and a lot of people to a focus area of downtown.

Originally Posted by Jeff

I agree. ALT has brought a lot of new traffic to one of downtown's WORST blocks.

Not to mention filled office space, immediate accomodation to our major entertainment/sports venue, two restaurants, and of course density.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Agreed 100% in theory that CRUs would have been preferable. However, as Urban Recluse pointed out, it's likely that the units would have sat vacant for ages.

Look at the parkade at King and Bannatyne... basically in the nerve centre of one of the city's most walkable areas where pedestrians and storefronts abound, and it still took years for a few restaurants to set up shop. I don't think there would have been many takers for expensive storefront space on such a forlorn stretch.

yes...look at the parkade at king and bannatyne...it took years but now it houses three trendy and popular small businesses and that block is nicely animated....that will never happen on the centrepoint block...ever.......no matter how popular that area becomes.

I agree that it takes time in Winnipeg, but we need to build for what we want our city to become, not what it is today.

Would have preferred to see our $5m parkade subsidy go to reduced rents in those CRU's to allow the small businesses the parkade replaced to continue..

I don't agree with the 'we should take what we can get' attitude...we need to stop that or we will never progress. CRU's would have been a very small added cost....considering we gave then something like $15m for that project it should have been a requirement....that parkade replaced a dozen small businesses...family owned, people who live in the area....it supported the economy in the neighbourhood and provided the amenities that make people want to live downtown....replaced with a container for cars so people can vacate downtown at 5 and return to white ridge....we need to build a neighbourhoods downtown.....first and foremost.

[Urban recluse]

Every block in downtown will not be what we consider ideal. This small section of parkade fronting Ellice is not the worst the city has. The surface lots on either side have the potential to become delightful storefronts.

Let's focus on this, which looks a Hell of a lot worse.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.89503...8i6656!6m1!1e1

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

yes...look at the parkade at king and bannatyne...it took years but now it houses three trendy and popular small businesses and that block is nicely animated....that will never happen on the centrepoint block...ever.......no matter how popular that area becomes.

I agree that it takes time in Winnipeg, but we need to build for what we want our city to become, not what it is today.

Would have preferred to see our $5m parkade subsidy go to reduced rents in those CRU's to allow the small businesses the parkade replaced to continue..

I don't agree with the 'we should take what we can get' attitude...we need to stop that or we will never progress. CRU's would have been a very small added cost....considering we gave then something like $15m for that project it should have been a requirement....that parkade replaced a dozen small businesses...family owned, people who live in the area....it supported the economy in the neighbourhood and provided the amenities that make people want to live downtown....replaced with a container for cars so people can vacate downtown at 5 and return to white ridge....we need to build a neighbourhoods downtown.....first and foremost.

I see your point but Centrepoint hasn't even managed to fill the Portage Avenue facing CRUs in the actual buildings yet. The damage was done when the old Alabama Building was demolished, that was the end of the small local businesses on that block. There's no way that a Chinese immigrant-owned hair salon or African import shop would be paying top dollar for new retail space on Hargrave. I appreciate the merit of the City forcing developers to put in CRUs on Portage or in the Exchange District, but Hargrave... man, that's a tough sell. How far can the City really ask developers to go when it comes to building retail space on their own dime that might not get filled for years and years?

Incidentally, there's an interesting history of the Alabama Building here. Interestingly, it was designed and built as basically a small business incubator. It would be fantastic to see a building replace that function somewhere downtown.

[1ajs]

wonder why the old sexshop and and 2nd floor still sits empty at donald and elice

and has anyone noticed the not to code tech cable ran to feed power to it along the back of the canada building half ass like?

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

wonder why the old sexshop and and 2nd floor still sits empty at donald and elice

and has anyone noticed the not to code tech cable ran to feed power to it along the back of the canada building half ass like?

That building needs to be completely gutted, and I assume no one wants to invest a staggering amount in that one, right there. A friend did some work in that building a few years ago and said the electrical and mechanical systems are an old mess.

It'll be really interesting to see what happens with the temple. Tons of work going on... if they actually get some tenants signed up it could help some interest there.

[Urban recluse]

The reality is that blocks around here are unsightly and lack vibrancy. The vicinity needs a dozen more developments like Glasshouse to crete the median income and critical mass to support additional retail and F&B establishments.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by trueviking

yes...look at the parkade at king and bannatyne...it took years but now it houses three trendy and popular small businesses and that block is nicely animated....that will never happen on the centrepoint block...ever.......no matter how popular that area becomes.

I agree that it takes time in Winnipeg, but we need to build for what we want our city to become, not what it is today.

Would have preferred to see our $5m parkade subsidy go to reduced rents in those CRU's to allow the small businesses the parkade replaced to continue..

I don't agree with the 'we should take what we can get' attitude...we need to stop that or we will never progress. CRU's would have been a very small added cost....considering we gave then something like $15m for that project it should have been a requirement....that parkade replaced a dozen small businesses...family owned, people who live in the area....it supported the economy in the neighbourhood and provided the amenities that make people want to live downtown....replaced with a container for cars so people can vacate downtown at 5 and return to white ridge....we need to build a neighbourhoods downtown.....first and foremost.

200 suites isn't creating a neighbourhood??? 100k sq ft plus a hotel doesn't help create a neighbourhood? Man, it is such an UNBELIEVABLE improvement over what is there, even without a few CRUs. Or we will never progress? Downtown Winnipeg has progressed more in the last 5 years than in the 25 before that... with MUCH more on the horizon.

That parkade in the exchange (at King and Bann)? You can almost guarantee that owner won't do a similar project again. These projects have to check out financially. On spreadsheets. It took too long to profit. It's suuuuper entitled of us as spectators to demand developers to go through such an arduous profit "our" way.

Nobody builds real estate under the premise that "hopefully I start generating a return 3 years from now". I LOVE what's happened to that parkade, but no experienced developer is going to wait around for that more than once.

They'll develop elsewhere or invest in a portfolio.

Rich people make their money work, and if that % isn't high enough on paper, they'l put their money to work elsewhere. So yes, let's be happy something is there (Centrepoint), because otherwise nothing would be there. Again bearing in mind it was actually not a great location for the project. It's impressive they pulled it off.

We have two towers and office space plus a second restaurant, and we're complaining about the absence of CRUs on the ugliest side of the proerty...

Not that I'd suggest "let's trust the rich people to do what they do", but to some extent, yes... why? Because the big principle in real estate is "highest and best use". Build to a property's highest return, best use, and the property will succeed, and the neighbourhood will benefit.

You can assume an experienced developer is pursuing that.

If you overbuild and it doesn't lease up, then it doesn't pay. Now you have an empty space (increased vacancy % in market research scares off business migration to downtown), and a developer losing money who won't reinvest in the city... not to mention they have the right to pursue profit on their property.

It's not that we have to accept mediocrity, but rather that we have to recognize the immense achievement of our downtown and the bight future we have. Especially if it's not our money, and even more importantly if it's not our risk. And in Winnipeg, the risk is HIGH.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

The reality is that blocks around here are unsightly and lack vibrancy. The vicinity needs a dozen more developments like Glasshouse to crete the median income and critical mass to support additional retail and F&B establishments.

[robertocarlos]

I know one family from Minnesota who now wish they parked the red mini-van in a downtown garage instead of on the street.

[buzzg]

^There's a huge car theft problem in Sage Creek right now; it can happen anywhere.

[oftheMoon]

^^^ or the crazy number of vehicle break-ins in the River Heights area last summer. It's always unfortunate but happens everywhere.