SAN ANTONIO | City and Metro Transportation Thread

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

Move the freight lines out of San Antonio? Like, completely? That doesn't make sense. It would mean a lot more trucks clogging up the SA roads. That has to be a typo.

Currently, the freight lines travel through San Antonio on their way to some further destination. This proposal will reroute the thru traffic.

[texboy]

http://tpr.org/post/growing-pains-ca...irport-compete

Growing Pains: Can San Antonio's Airport Compete?

While the clientele at the San Antonio and Austin airports are somewhat different, Cisneros believes the future of the two - 75 miles apart- will be linked as the region grows. And he doesn’t like what he sees.

“The one in Austin is going to be the one that does the international flights and establishes Austin, not just as the capitol of Texas but the center of this region. Then we’re going to have the San Antonio airport which is going to be the Hobby or the Love… the baby brother.”

By “baby brother” Cisneros means that San Antonio could become to Austin what Oakland is to San Francisco, what Burbank is to Los Angeles.

“I’m saying if we don’t do something about this it is fact. It is inevitability,” Cisneros said.

It Looks like this might finally become a serious discussion. Now I think Cisneros is being a little broad in his assessment here as SA stands by itself very much so in terms of culture and notoriety, but in terms of the airport.... yes.... SA will start looking like Austin's "reliever" very soon if something is not done. Frank Miller seems completely out of touch with what is happening in SA right now and the missed opportunities that are all over the place. The amount of travelers that they miss by having passengers drive to Austin or hell, even to Houston could fill no less than a dozen planes a day alone I'm sure. IMO, Its time they really start taking a hard look at relocation within the next decade or two. If Randolph AFB were to ever close.... I'd say we'd be putting quite a bit more than a ding in Austin's numbers if SA took advantage of that land and those beautifully long runways. That will probably never happen, but the land is out that way for a nice, new facility that has proper runways and the ability to expand for the future.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by texboy

http://tpr.org/post/growing-pains-ca...irport-compete



It Looks like this might finally become a serious discussion. Now I think Cisneros is being a little broad in his assessment here as SA stands by itself very much so in terms of culture and notoriety, but in terms of the airport.... yes.... SA will start looking like Austin's "reliever" very soon if something is not done. Frank Miller seems completely out of touch with what is happening in SA right now and the missed opportunities that are all over the place. The amount of travelers that they miss by having passengers drive to Austin or hell, even to Houston could fill no less than a dozen planes a day alone I'm sure. IMO, Its time they really start taking a hard look at relocation within the next decade or two. If Randolph AFB were to ever close.... I'd say we'd be putting quite a bit more than a ding in Austin's numbers if SA took advantage of that land and those beautifully long runways. That will probably never happen, but the land is out that way for a nice, new facility that has proper runways and the ability to expand for the future.

I agree. However, I wouldn't go as far as suggesting a new SA airport would put "quite a bit more than a ding" in passenger traffic out of Austin. I believe the perception of how many SA citizens actually fly out of Austin is a bit out-of-whack. I believe assuming tens of thousands of people from SA are flying out of Austin on even a monthly basis is just flat wrong.


Lets take a poll, does anyone think ~400 San Antonians per day used AUS last month?


As it has been mentioned already - STOP FOCUSING ON AUSTIN. We need to figure out how WE can cultivate and maintain new routes out of SAT! And not how we can "put a ding" in Austin's numbers. That is not going to happen.

[ILUVSAT]

Oh, yeah...Mr. Cisneros, please stop this "if you build it they will come" BS. Remember your Alamodome? You built it under the guise of luring an NFL team to SA. Twenty-plus years later, we still don't have "that" team. Additionally, SA does not need another airport. They simply need a longer runway and demand for more routes/flights. If the city doesn't own it already, buy up the land north of Wurzbach and extend the east runway - 4/22 (tunneling Wurzbach under the new runway). You could easily have a 10,000+ foot-long runway.

Mr. Cisneros, how far Oakland is from San Francisco/Burbank from LA? Do you know? Poor, poor analogy, Mr. Cisneros. Austin and SA may become a "region" in the future, but, it will be a region whose major centers are 80 miles apart. Far further away from one another than the Oakland/San Francisco (even San Jose) or the Burbank/LA argument. Furthermore, SFO and LAX have been established major airline hubs for decades. Neither Austin nor SA will ever be a hub for a major airline (a so-called legacy airline). Their respective airports are far enough apart that, if managed well and the market dictates it, should both be thriving. And, at this juncture, the market seems to not be dictating growth at SAT. Mr. Cisneros, what you are suggesting is creating demand where demand seems to not exist. While not quite impossible to overcome...it is extremely difficult to accomplish.

On another note, IAD and BWI are 58 miles apart and both handle about 22 million passengers per year. Oh, just for reference, the Washington/Baltimore CMSA has a population of just over 9.5 million people (2014 estimate), about a million more than the San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose CMSA. The Austin/San Antonio "region" will not even realize 8.5 million by 2040 (based on current growth estimates - growth figures between 2010 and 2014 - A/SA region might be in the neighborhood of 8.2 million by July 1, 2040).

I cannot think of another example of two major cities (at least 70-90 miles apart from one another and each having MSA's of 2+ million) where one's airport is the "Love Field" of the other's "DFW." In most cases, they both have thriving airports.

Hey, I'm a realist. I love San Antonio, but, I know "little brother" is going to be "big brother" within my lifetime. By 2040, Austin is expected to have 4.3 million in its MSA and San Antonio is projected to have 3.9, respectively (based on current growth estimates - 2010-2014 growth - by the U.S. Census Bureau). Thus, if this comes to fruition, YES, Mr. Cisneros, Austin will be the "center" of this region. It happens sometime. And there is not much we can do about it but to do our best to create and foster opportunities for our own growth. And, again, not worry about what others are doing.

As a region, YES, we need to work with Austin on "some" things. However, on others, we need to find our own niche and exploit it as long as we can while searching for a new niche. It is a never ending process. One in which I do not believe we are doing well at the moment.


So, Mr. Cisneros, thank you for your service to this community. I believe we all appreciate it. But, at this point, please, please, for the love of San Antonio, just ride off quietly into the sunset and enjoy your retirement. You are not helping.

[texboy]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

I agree. However, I wouldn't go as far as suggesting a new SA airport would put "quite a bit more than a ding" in passenger traffic out of Austin. I believe the perception of how many SA citizens actually fly out of Austin is a bit out-of-whack. I believe assuming tens of thousands of people from SA are flying out of Austin on even a monthly basis is just flat wrong.


Lets take a poll, does anyone think ~400 San Antonians per day used AUS last month?


As it has been mentioned already - STOP FOCUSING ON AUSTIN. We need to figure out how WE can cultivate and maintain new routes out of SAT! And not how we can "put a ding" in Austin's numbers. That is not going to happen.

I totally agree on the "stop focusing on Austin" part.... BUT.... you have to recognize that there is a city to the north that is taking at least SOME potential passengers .... and has somehow created an airport with 50 destinations for a city of less than a million and metro less than 2 million.... at some point we have to take a page out of SOMEONE's book that's been successful.... and say "hey, it worked for them, why not for us?"

And we aren't talking about just San Antonians that might be using ABIA, we're talking Seguin, New Braunfels, Universal City, San Marcos that SAT could be pulling from alot more.

[ILUVSAT]

Edit...sorry.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by texboy

I totally agree on the "stop focusing on Austin" part.... BUT.... you have to recognize that there is a city to the north that is taking at least SOME potential passengers .... and has somehow created an airport with 50 destinations for a city of less than a million and metro less than 2 million.... at some point we have to take a page out of SOMEONE's book that's been successful.... and say "hey, it worked for them, why not for us?"

And we aren't talking about just San Antonians that might be using ABIA, we're talking Seguin, New Braunfels, Universal City, San Marcos that SAT could be pulling from alot more.

1) Yes, we are loosing “some” passengers to ABIA. However, it is far less than other posters would like to realize.

2) I'm a realist...Austin is not as “small” as "we" may think. As San Antonians, we need to realize we now have a venerable challenger 80 miles to the north. Austin’s MSA is (as of July 1, 2015) estimated to be 2,003,898, or about 370,000 less than SA’s (with three fewer counties than us). This number is based off of the U.S. Census Bureau’s estimated growth from 2010-2014. Also, the “city” population is inconsequential. If you want to use the “city” population argument, let’s look at this: based on 2014 estimates, Miami (the city of) is about 470,000 people smaller than Austin; Denver by roughly 250,000; San Francisco by about 50,000, etc., etc., etc. In fact, only 10 cities in the U.S. are bigger than Austin by “city” population. Our problem is that we do not recognize that fact. The sooner we do, the better off we will be. We look like an arrogant bastard if we don’t – why would Austin even want to speak with us on certain issues if we think of them that way?

3) I agree that we need to “look” at what others are doing to succeed. But, we do not need to dwell on it. We need to see how we can mold our own ideas into what has been successful in other cities and employ that here.

4) I apologize for not being more clear…when I speak of San Antonians, I speak of anyone living within our metropolitan area. Seguin, NB and UC are apart of that area. San Marcos is in Austin’s Metro area and is actually only a few miles from ABIA (thus, not, IMO, apart of the discussion). And, again, I don’t think AUS is “pulling a lot” from SAT. I have not seen any statistics to prove otherwise.


*Do you think AUS has ~400 passengers per day from our area (the SA metro area)? I don’t.

[Schertz1]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

1) Yes, we are loosing “some” passengers to ABIA. However, it is far less than other posters would like to realize.


*Do you think AUS has ~400 passengers per day from our area (the SA metro area)? I don’t.

I disagree with you on this. Domestic travel at SAT has decreased or remained flat, while ABIA has thrived. Prior to ABIA SAT domestic travel saw increases of 3-4% a year. It is not realistic to think people have stopped flying and we know the region has grown substantially. It is more likely they are flying out of ABIA. San Antonio needs to conduct a study. I think the number is more than 400 per day.

The focus should be on Austin if passengers are using ABIA and not SAT.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

I cannot think of another example of two major cities (at least 70-90 miles apart from one another and each having MSA's of 2+ million) where one's airport is the "Love Field" of the other's "DFW." In most cases, they both have thriving airports.

Columbia, the Triad, and Greenville to Charlotte. All of those major city's airports are essentially useless and nonfunctioning and have significant bleed over into the Charlotte airport. I fly out of Charlotte's airport and ALL of my friends do as well. And when I lived in San Antonio, I flew out of Austin because it was a better experience. Flying out of S.A. is... stressful. However, I think all of your points here are generally well taken: the problems with S.A.'s airport are broader and have little to do with Austin.

[BNF]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

I agree. However, I wouldn't go as far as suggesting a new SA airport would put "quite a bit more than a ding" in passenger traffic out of Austin. I believe the perception of how many SA citizens actually fly out of Austin is a bit out-of-whack. I believe assuming tens of thousands of people from SA are flying out of Austin on even a monthly basis is just flat wrong.


Lets take a poll, does anyone think ~400 San Antonians per day used AUS last month?


As it has been mentioned already - STOP FOCUSING ON AUSTIN. We need to figure out how WE can cultivate and maintain new routes out of SAT! And not how we can "put a ding" in Austin's numbers. That is not going to happen.

If you really want to take a poll, I'll offer my personal trip information. More than half of the time I will drive to Austin to fly somewhere rather than fly out of San Antonio. Their prices are consistently cheaper by quite a bit and they have so many more options for times and locations. Anyone who believes that that airport is not a threat to ours is lying to themselves. Does anybody know of someone from Austin who drives to San Antonio to use the airport? I doubt it. Anytime one airport is losing its destinations to another airport it is not a good thing for the former.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Schertz1

I disagree with you on this. Domestic travel at SAT has decreased or remained flat, while ABIA has thrived. Prior to ABIA SAT domestic travel saw increases of 3-4% a year. It is not realistic to think people have stopped flying and we know the region has grown substantially. It is more likely they are flying out of ABIA. San Antonio needs to conduct a study. I think the number is more than 400 per day.

The focus should be on Austin if passengers are using ABIA and not SAT.

I think it's probably way more than 400 a day, but I also think that it isn't some huge number. Probably no more than 1000 boardings a day, but that's still significant. 400 would be significant, frankly.

[ILUVSAT]

400 passengers per day (~12,400/month) would be slightly over 1% of the total passengers which used ABIA in July.

By "1000 boardings" per day do you mean enplanements or total number of passengers. I'm assuming enplanements. If so, you will obviously have deplanement passengers as well (possibly close to the same number of daily enplanements). So, are you suggesting a total of roughly 62,000 passengers a month (or a little over 5% of total passenger traffic) use ABIA?

I'm not sure if it is that high. Maybe...but, I'm not sure.

I agree, some sort of study should be done (if not already completed).

[Jdawgboy]

I've already said this in the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport update thread but I'll go ahead and say it here as well.


This whole idea of a regional airport is just not going to happen. You don't hear anything about it on our local news because it's a non issue to us. We are not going to give up the convenience of our airport just to satisfy San Antonio's ego. It's close to DT, strategically located with fairly easy access from most of the metro. It already has the runways to accommodate trans-oceanic wide body long haul routes and can be expanded to well over a 100 gates if the need ever arises. We won't give that up nor should we be expected to. This is a one sided issue and Austin is being dragged into it through no fault of our own.


Now I'm sure San Antonio will continue to get more direct flights but there's no need for a regional airport between the two cities. That idea died long ago and it's not gonna happen.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

I've already said this in the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport update thread but I'll go ahead and say it here as well.


This whole idea of a regional airport is just not going to happen. You don't hear anything about it on our local news because it's a non issue to us. We are not going to give up the convenience of our airport just to satisfy San Antonio's ego. It's close to DT, strategically located with fairly easy access from most of the metro. It already has the runways to accommodate trans-oceanic wide body long haul routes and can be expanded to well over a 100 gates if the need ever arises. We won't give that up nor should we be expected to. This is a one sided issue and Austin is being dragged into it through no fault of our own.


Now I'm sure San Antonio will continue to get more direct flights but there's no need for a regional airport between the two cities. That idea died long ago and it's not gonna happen.

Amen.

[jaga185]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

I've already said this in the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport update thread but I'll go ahead and say it here as well.


This whole idea of a regional airport is just not going to happen. You don't hear anything about it on our local news because it's a non issue to us. We are not going to give up the convenience of our airport just to satisfy San Antonio's ego. It's close to DT, strategically located with fairly easy access from most of the metro. It already has the runways to accommodate trans-oceanic wide body long haul routes and can be expanded to well over a 100 gates if the need ever arises. We won't give that up nor should we be expected to. This is a one sided issue and Austin is being dragged into it through no fault of our own.


Now I'm sure San Antonio will continue to get more direct flights but there's no need for a regional airport between the two cities. That idea died long ago and it's not gonna happen.

Say it again. We need to focus on us.

[Fireoutofclay]

Growing Pains: Comparing San Antonio Air Ticket Prices With Other Key Cities
By Shelley Kofler
Story airing on Texas Public Radio
Aug 20, 2015

http://tpr.org/post/growing-pains-co...her-key-cities

San Antonio’s airport director told city council members Wednesday that a net 300,000 passengers who used to fly out of the San Antonio International Airport are now driving to Austin for flights.

It’s another bit of data that adds fuel to concerns that San Antonio’s airport may have lost its competitive edge to Austin.

[Rynetwo]

Originally Posted by Fireoutofclay

Growing Pains: Comparing San Antonio Air Ticket Prices With Other Key Cities
By Shelley Kofler
Story airing on Texas Public Radio
Aug 20, 2015

http://tpr.org/post/growing-pains-co...her-key-cities

So the number that everyone has been guessing about is 821.

[Schertz1]

I would say it is even more. 300K is how many use to fly out of San Antonio. I don't think it considers increased population or the new people that should use SAT, but never have.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Schertz1

I would say it is even more. 300K is how many use to fly out of San Antonio. I don't think it considers increased population or the new people that should use SAT, but never have.

So the number above is definitely biased down, which, given the factors you mention (and I agree with), suggests that the real number may be around 1000 a day.

[GoldenBoot]

So, if all of those people flew out of SAT in 2014 instead of AUS, it would only increase SAT's passenger traffic by about 3.5% (~8.4 million to ~8.7 million PAX). Yes, ticket prices are an challenge, but, it should not be the sole focus as it is not the only problem with SAT.